14:00:05 <mattdm> #startmeeting Council (2019-05-22)
14:00:05 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed May 22 14:00:05 2019 UTC.
14:00:05 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
14:00:05 <zodbot> The chair is mattdm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:00:05 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:00:05 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2019-05-22)'
14:00:08 <mattdm> #meetingname council
14:00:08 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council'
14:00:10 <mattdm> #chair jonatoni bex contyk dgilmore dperpeet langdon mattdm sumantrom tyll bcotton pbrobinson
14:00:10 <zodbot> Current chairs: bcotton bex contyk dgilmore dperpeet jonatoni langdon mattdm pbrobinson sumantrom tyll
14:00:12 <bexelbie> .hello bex
14:00:12 <mattdm> #topic Introductions, Welcomes
14:00:12 <zodbot> bexelbie: bex 'Brian (bex) Exelbierd' <bexelbie@redhat.com>
14:00:27 <contyk> .hello psabata
14:00:28 <zodbot> contyk: psabata 'Petr Šabata' <psabata@redhat.com>
14:00:37 <dgilmore> hola
14:01:06 <mattdm> good morning!
14:01:15 <stickster> .hello pfrields
14:01:15 <zodbot> stickster: pfrields 'Paul W. Frields' <stickster@gmail.com>
14:02:47 <bcotton> .hello2
14:02:48 <zodbot> bcotton: bcotton 'Ben Cotton' <bcotton@redhat.com>
14:03:05 <langdon> .hello2
14:03:06 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <langdon@redhat.com>
14:04:14 <asamalik> .hello2
14:04:15 <zodbot> asamalik: asamalik 'Adam Samalik' <asamalik@redhat.com>
14:04:15 * pbrobinson o/
14:04:21 <mattdm> hi!
14:04:25 <mattdm> okay, let's get started
14:04:31 <mattdm> #topic Today's Open Floor Agenda
14:04:40 <mattdm> This is an open floor meeting, which works like this:
14:04:44 <mattdm> - you propose topics
14:04:48 <mattdm> - i put the topics in order
14:04:58 <mattdm> - we go through the topics with about 5-10 minutes for each
14:04:59 <langdon> what if it is the wrong order?
14:05:01 <mattdm> - ????
14:05:04 <mattdm> - profit
14:05:14 <mattdm> langdon: then you can run the meeting next time
14:05:20 <langdon> ha
14:06:14 <mattdm> ok, so, anyone?
14:06:33 <asamalik> I have a topic: I was discussing proposing a minimization objective that would make the size of various installations in Fedora smaller. And I'd love to get some input before writing that down.
14:08:07 <mattdm> asamalik: perfect !
14:08:20 <mattdm> sounds like that may be the only topic?
14:08:22 <mattdm> which is fine :)
14:08:31 <mattdm> bexelbie can you do a brief Flock update?
14:08:42 * mattdm knows he owes you some writing :-(
14:08:50 <bexelbie> that's my update :D
14:08:55 <mattdm> lol. ok.
14:09:03 <mattdm> i also want to link to the Reddit AMA i am doing today
14:09:04 <bexelbie> I can answer questions - I have a laundry list of things to do other htan hassle mattdm
14:09:07 <bexelbie> but that one is on the top :P
14:09:08 <mattdm> but that's also short :)
14:09:13 <mattdm> Ok so:
14:09:20 <mattdm> 1. Fedora Minimization Objective
14:09:23 <mattdm> 2
14:09:26 <mattdm> 2. Flock
14:09:29 <mattdm> 3. AMA
14:09:38 <mattdm> #topic Fedora Minimization Objective
14:09:46 <mattdm> asamalik, stickster -- take it away :)
14:09:58 <asamalik> all right :)
14:10:23 * stickster notes this eats into lifecycle objective in a fully supported way ;-)
14:11:05 <asamalik> so basically there are few problems I want to focus on: our container base image is getting bigger and bigger, our isos are getting larger, but also when installing something the dependency tree is often quite huge
14:11:30 <asamalik> this all negatively influences the compose time, but also the patch footprint of Fedora system in production, etc etc
14:11:45 <asamalik> so I'd like to propose an objective that would help this
14:11:58 <asamalik> I don't mean to solve all these problems
14:12:20 <asamalik> I want to focus on the packages first
14:12:29 <mattdm> I would like to solve all of those problems, but taking a focused approach seems pragmatic :)
14:12:37 <asamalik> lol
14:12:59 <asamalik> I want to have a look at the dependency trees and see what's happening there, what could be optimized etc
14:13:39 <asamalik> then maybe on the file level, if there are packages that could be split to make their dependency tree smaller
14:13:59 <mattdm> so would this _replace_ the lifecycle objective for now?
14:14:42 <contyk> I'd note we have guidelines and policies to achieve this already; we just need the push to enforce them in the key packages
14:14:48 <stickster> mattdm: this + rawhide gating probably is the most functional near-term work for lifecycle
14:14:56 <contyk> for that having an objective clearly stating this is our goal would be great
14:15:11 <asamalik> contyk: yes
14:15:19 <mattdm> I'd suggest we replace it. I'm looking at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives/Lifecycle#Goals
14:15:31 <mattdm> and that says "Work phase (starting Dec 2018)"
14:15:34 <mattdm> and we're way past that
14:16:04 <stickster> asamalik: iirc harald had some scripts from back in the day (they relied on rpm libs and should have aged quite well) to show dep-tree info... you may be able to use them to focus on some "key offenders"
14:16:31 <bexelbie> I feel like enforcing this in packages is going to mean we need to take a look at the packaging process and experience ... and I think that needs to happen.  Otherwise we are compounding rules on rules and may not get what we want
14:16:39 <dgilmore> I would think there is some significant differences
14:16:45 <asamalik> stickster: yes, I'll look into that
14:17:06 <mattdm> yeah, so in some ways this also includes some of the proposed (but not completely) Pcakager Experience objective
14:17:10 <bexelbie> +1 to replacing the lifecycle objective with this one if it is picking up the operational work
14:17:15 <dgilmore> however the lifecycle objective being done would help with making progress on minimisation visible
14:17:27 <stickster> mattdm: well, not running as far behind as feared considering we're also doing team transformation overlaid on that
14:18:17 <stickster> but it's a fair point. the objective ended up being too much of a catch-all -- that typically dooms things to failure
14:18:30 <mattdm> stickster: yeah, exactly. I think we need objectives to be more scoped and more concrete
14:18:38 <stickster> so paring it down to smaller better-defined pieces and driving those is a better move.
14:18:41 <stickster> *jinx
14:18:45 <mattdm> otherwise they're aspirations, not objectives. those are good too, but we need the latter
14:19:42 <mattdm> okay, so, asamalik do you have a draft of this ready to look at? if so, please file a council ticket
14:19:47 <bexelbie> stickster, is paring this down a deliverable you can have in the next month?
14:19:57 <stickster> bexelbie: paring down what?
14:20:01 <stickster> the lifecycle objective?
14:20:04 <asamalik> so the way I'd like to do that would be 1) developing tooling for packagers so they can do the right decisions... 2) potentially start outside the Fedora infrastructure with bigger changes so we don't have to start with a revolution... I want to be able to experiment, prove things work, and then go back
14:20:06 <bexelbie> yes
14:20:23 <bexelbie> also "yes" to asamalik :)
14:20:24 <asamalik> mattdm: I'm in a process of writing it down... I'll have it done Friday or next week
14:20:31 <mattdm> asamalik++
14:20:31 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for asamalik changed to 5 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:20:38 <mattdm> sounds good.
14:20:51 <mattdm> anything else on this?
14:20:51 <stickster> bexelbie: that is this minimization objective, and the rawhide gating project. So, yes, but that doesn't mean we want to keep this catch-all objective.
14:21:18 <asamalik> so it is a bit of packaging experience, but very targeted
14:21:23 <bexelbie> re: lifecycle objective - I'd like to see it not be a catch-all per our convo above
14:21:52 <mattdm> bexelbie: my suggestion is to just wrap that one up
14:23:01 <bexelbie> +1 for that too mattdm
14:23:08 <stickster> asamalik: what do you envision doing outside infra? (I ask from a supporting POV)
14:23:12 <bexelbie> I thought stickster wanted something different
14:23:13 <stickster> mattdm++
14:23:14 <zodbot> stickster: Karma for mattdm changed to 3 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:23:45 <mattdm> judging by the cookie I think he and I are on the same page :)
14:24:14 <bexelbie> now I see that :)
14:24:17 <stickster> I think that "objective" is still valid aspirations and I intend to drive aspects of it via the teams I manage ;-) but that's done by breaking out into specific projects like this one
14:24:19 <bexelbie> or he wants you fat ...
14:24:27 <asamalik> stickster: the first step will be some problem exploration that probably reveals specific things... at this point it's more of a principal than an actual plan to do something in particular
14:24:41 <mattdm> making me eat dessert is the FCAIC's job
14:24:53 <bexelbie> first bullet point in the descriptoin ...
14:25:18 <mattdm> sooooo anyway.
14:25:22 <mattdm> thank you stickster and asamalik
14:25:27 <mattdm> #topic Flock
14:25:30 <stickster> asamalik: OK, so for instance, doing some experimental build stuff to see what happens with particular spec diffs, flags, etc.?
14:25:34 <mattdm> #undo
14:25:34 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Topic object at 0x7f7e5f651350>
14:25:40 <asamalik> stickster: yes
14:25:43 <stickster> +100
14:25:50 * stickster shuts up so things can move on ;-)
14:26:03 <asamalik> cool! I'll open the ticket when I'm ready!
14:26:43 <asamalik> EOF
14:27:34 <mattdm> thanks!
14:27:38 <mattdm> #topic Flock
14:27:47 <mattdm> #info mattdm needs to write a thing to juice up the CFP
14:28:38 <mattdm> I have a meeting in Westford at the RH office tomorrow about some internal stuff with hopefully postive Fedora impact
14:28:52 <bexelbie> related to Flock?
14:28:53 <mattdm> I will try to write this on my ridiculously long commute in
14:28:56 <mattdm> nope
14:29:03 <bexelbie> that's what I thought
14:29:05 <mattdm> related to me writing things and my time management issues :)
14:29:44 <bexelbie> ok
14:30:04 <bexelbie> everything else is situation normal, visa letters, funding requests, tickets, and cfp are all open
14:30:30 <mattdm> what about hotel registration?
14:31:08 <bexelbie> should be functioning
14:31:17 <bexelbie> I have received no complaints
14:31:36 * bexelbie doesn't use that method for $reasons so ... I have no personal experience
14:31:52 <mattdm> ok cool.
14:31:57 * mattdm will go register hotel :)
14:32:10 <mattdm> anyone else anything Flocky?
14:32:11 <bexelbie> ty canary-mattdm
14:32:25 <mattdm> #topic Reddit AMA
14:32:32 <mattdm> #info I am doing a Reddit AMA _right now_
14:32:36 <mattdm> #link https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/brp7q7/im_matthew_miller_fedora_project_leader_ask_me/
14:32:46 <mattdm> please go and lob softball questions for me
14:33:10 <dgilmore> that would mean signing up for reddit
14:33:24 * bcotton waits for mattdm's fark AMA
14:33:24 <bexelbie> dgilmore, just use mattdm's account :P
14:33:25 <mattdm> that is true. that is how it works :)
14:34:14 <mattdm> okay, that's all.
14:34:16 <mattdm> thanks everyone!
14:34:23 <mattdm> #endmeeting