14:00:03 <mattdm> #startmeeting Council (2019-06-19)
14:00:03 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jun 19 14:00:03 2019 UTC.
14:00:03 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
14:00:03 <zodbot> The chair is mattdm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:00:03 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:00:03 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2019-06-19)'
14:00:04 <mattdm> #meetingname council
14:00:04 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council'
14:00:06 <mattdm> #chair jonatoni bex contyk dgilmore dperpeet langdon mattdm sumantrom tyll bcotton pbrobinson
14:00:06 <zodbot> Current chairs: bcotton bex contyk dgilmore dperpeet jonatoni langdon mattdm pbrobinson sumantrom tyll
14:00:08 <mattdm> #topic Introductions, Welcomes
14:00:11 <mattdm> Good morning everyone!
14:00:36 <bcotton> #chair asamalik
14:00:36 <zodbot> Current chairs: asamalik bcotton bex contyk dgilmore dperpeet jonatoni langdon mattdm pbrobinson sumantrom tyll
14:00:46 <bcotton> (even though i think he's out today)
14:00:50 <pbrobinson> morning o/
14:00:59 <mattdm> oh yeah. need to update the council meeting wiki pgae
14:01:06 <bgilbert> hey!
14:01:08 <bgilbert> .hello2
14:01:09 <zodbot> bgilbert: bgilbert 'Benjamin Gilbert' <bgilbert@backtick.net>
14:01:11 <contyk> hey
14:01:13 <contyk> .hello psabata
14:01:14 <zodbot> contyk: psabata 'Petr Šabata' <psabata@redhat.com>
14:01:15 <mattdm> #chair bgilbert
14:01:15 <zodbot> Current chairs: asamalik bcotton bex bgilbert contyk dgilmore dperpeet jonatoni langdon mattdm pbrobinson sumantrom tyll
14:01:20 <jonatoni> .hello jonatoni
14:01:21 <zodbot> jonatoni: jonatoni 'Jona Azizaj' <jonaazizaj@gmail.com>
14:01:59 <mattdm> cool good crowd this morning :)
14:02:23 <mattdm> This is our "open floor" meeting, although we've asked Benjamin to give an update on Fedora CoreOS as the first item
14:02:46 <mattdm> I'll wait another minute for others to show up and then start collecting agenda itemss
14:04:26 <mattdm> #topic Today's Agenda
14:04:40 <mattdm> As mentioned, item #1 is Fedora CoreOS.
14:05:00 <mattdm> Maybe pbrobinson could give a few minutes after that updating on Fedora IoT, too?
14:05:08 <mattdm> any other items, anyone?
14:05:39 <mattdm> flock updates, I guess.
14:05:44 <pbrobinson> sure
14:06:15 <mattdm> thanks.
14:06:18 <bexelbie> .hello bex
14:06:19 <zodbot> bexelbie: bex 'Brian (bex) Exelbierd' <bexelbie@redhat.com>
14:06:22 <mattdm> oh hi!
14:06:30 <mattdm> bexelbie: anything to add to agenda before we get started?
14:06:35 <bexelbie> will CoreOS be video or IRC?
14:06:39 <mattdm> irc
14:06:48 * bexelbie has no additional agenda items
14:06:51 <mattdm> we didn't give bgilbert enough time to put together a slick presentation :)
14:07:00 <mattdm> #topic Fedora CoreOS launch update
14:07:06 <mattdm> take it away bgilbert
14:07:11 <bgilbert> hi all!
14:07:15 <mattdm> hi!
14:07:21 <bexelbie> hola
14:07:44 <bgilbert> I'm not sure how much everyone knows about Fedora CoreOS, so w
14:07:52 <bgilbert> ...I'll start with a brief overview.
14:08:23 <mattdm> sounds good
14:08:38 <bgilbert> Fedora CoreOS is intended as a minimal-ish operating system for running containers.  we don't expect that users will run things in the host, except for e.g. services to interface with hardware
14:08:44 <mattdm> bgilbert: feel free to mark things with #info so they show up in the summary log
14:08:52 <bgilbert> import network storage, and so on
14:08:54 <bgilbert> mattdm: +1
14:09:07 <mattdm> #info Fedora CoreOS is intended as a minimal-ish operating system for running containers. We don't expect that users will run things in the host, except for e.g. services to interface with hardware
14:09:09 <mattdm> like that :)
14:09:17 <bgilbert> :-)
14:09:27 <bgilbert> the folks working on it mostly come from a background in CoreOS Container Linux and in Atomic Host.
14:10:10 <bgilbert> #info We're building Fedora CoreOS to work as an immutable host: you provision a node once and then leave it alone.
14:10:30 <bgilbert> we won't prevent you from SSHing in and doing sysadmin-y things, but it's not the preferred model.
14:10:53 <mattdm> This seems similar to both Container Linux and Atomic Host
14:10:56 <bgilbert> think "appliance for running containers".
14:10:58 <bgilbert> yep
14:11:12 <bgilbert> to do this, we're focusing on a few elements:
14:11:52 <bgilbert> #info Fedora CoreOS is provisioned via Ignition.  We're shipping support for the new Ignition config spec 3.0.0.
14:11:54 <langdon> .hello2
14:11:54 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <langdon@redhat.com>
14:11:57 <langdon> sorry im late
14:12:32 <bgilbert> #info Ignition allows users to provide a declarative configuration to a node: it should have X file, Y systemd service, Z partition and filesystem.
14:12:49 <langdon> re: agenda, i have a draft of an new modularity objective
14:12:50 <bgilbert> in the cloud, that's provided via userdata; on bare metal, it's provided via e.g. HTTP.
14:13:20 <mattdm> does that mean no cloud-config?
14:13:25 <bgilbert> we will not provide other config mechanisms: there's no cloud-init, and configuration management integration is something users would need to work out for themselves.
14:13:26 <bgilbert> yep
14:13:39 <mattdm> (good question, mattdm :)   )
14:13:59 <bgilbert> #info Fedora CoreOS updates itself automatically.  We expect that users won't have to think about OS versions.
14:14:14 <bgilbert> in particular, we want updates between Fedora major versions to be seamless.
14:14:23 <bgilbert> that implies carefully managing backward compatibility
14:14:38 <bgilbert> to make this work,
14:14:55 <mattdm> Yeah that seems like the biggest challenge in a lot of ways. I mean, biggest challenge to using Fedora as a base for this
14:15:18 <mattdm> Is there a CI suite to test expected compatibility?
14:15:18 <bgilbert> #info Fedora CoreOS will have multiple channels: "stable", "testing", "next".  Most production nodes will run on stable, but we want users to run a small % of nodes on testing and next.
14:15:39 <bgilbert> mattdm: there is CI, but our experience with Container Linux is that CI will not catch everything
14:15:59 <mattdm> what, it's not a magic silver bullet? :)
14:16:09 <bgilbert> #info Updates will go to "testing" first, allowing users some time to tell us about regressions before they promote to stable.
14:16:31 <bgilbert> #info "next" is for providing a longer soak period before new Fedora major versions promote to "testing" and "stable".
14:16:43 <mattdm> this seems like a very good plan to me
14:16:45 <bgilbert> last major point,
14:17:16 <bgilbert> #info Fedora CoreOS will support bare metal, popular VM systems, plus a number of the major clouds.
14:17:26 <bgilbert> we want it to be available as broadly as possible.
14:17:50 <bgilbert> that's the background.  questions before I go on to status?
14:18:03 <bexelbie> What is the expected container management model?
14:19:18 <bgilbert> we want to support different approaches there.  we're looking at OKD.  upstream k8s would be great.  moby swarm too.  individual moby or podman containers launched by systemd units.
14:19:47 <mattdm> is there a default "here's what we expect to get started" model?
14:19:49 <bgilbert> we want FCOS to be opinionated in many ways, but running containers is the core goal, and we know people do that in different ways.
14:20:33 <bgilbert> mattdm: it seems likely that that will be OKD eventually, but not right out of the gate.  I'd guess the getting started guide will initially talk about individual containers with podman.
14:21:09 <bgilbert> to be clear, an initial priority is providing ~equivalence with CoreOS Container Linux so we can get that userbase migrated over
14:21:28 <bexelbie> Are there specifics of that feature set that Fedora users may not be aware of?
14:21:42 <bexelbie> and/or could you summarize briefly any additional opinionation that brings?
14:21:45 <bgilbert> and Container Linux didn't really provide a recommended approach either.  right now we're focused on getting the primitives in place.
14:21:56 <mattdm> I think most Fedora users outside the small set of Fedora Atomic (and CentOS Atomic) users are unaware of the whole thing.
14:22:11 <bgilbert> bexelbie: the Container Linux feature set?
14:22:15 <bexelbie> yes
14:22:26 <mattdm> So my next question was going to be about plans for bringing CL users across
14:22:33 <bexelbie> Alternately is there a PRD that we can link to so people can read about the feature goals?
14:22:35 <mattdm> I guess specifically: what are those plans? and how can we help?
14:22:45 <bgilbert> bexelbie: the high-level points are the ones I mentioned.  declarative configuration, automatic updates.  it's not so much about tooling as management approaches.
14:22:58 <bexelbie> ok
14:23:04 <bgilbert> there is a PRD: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CoreOS/PRD
14:23:13 * bexelbie wants to hear how pbrobinson compares this with the IoT approach
14:23:20 <bexelbie> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CoreOS/PRD
14:23:27 <bexelbie> thank you
14:23:27 <bgilbert> maybe I'll move on to current status, rather than addressing it piecemeal :-)
14:23:42 <mattdm> yes that's fine :)
14:24:20 <bgilbert> we're planning to ship a preview release next month.  the goal is to get users to start kicking the tires.
14:24:38 <bgilbert> it will support a subset of the targeted cloud platforms, and not all functionality will be in place.
14:24:55 <bgilbert> we don't want people running it in production yet, and we reserve the right to make breaking changes during the preview period.
14:25:23 <bgilbert> during the preview period, we'll work on filling out the missing bits (e.g. more clouds) and building migration tooling for Container Linux users.
14:25:50 <bgilbert> (that tooling will consist of docs + a program that will take an Ignition config from Container Linux and do its best to convert it for FCOS)
14:26:04 <bexelbie> no bare metal support in preview?
14:26:15 <bcotton> #info Planning to ship a Fedora CoreOS preview release next month. the goal is to get users to start kicking the tires.
14:26:23 <bgilbert> plus, of course, addressing user feedback.
14:26:31 <bgilbert> bexelbie: ah, sorry, I was speaking loosely.  yes, there will be bare metal support.
14:26:59 <bgilbert> bexelbie: there will probably not be live-PXE support in preview, though that part will come later
14:27:11 <bgilbert> ~6 months after the preview release, we plan to declare Fedora CoreOS stable.
14:27:25 <bgilbert> there are no technical consequences of that change; it's just the point where we encourage users to run FCOS in production.
14:27:47 <bgilbert> after that, we want to give Container Linux users ~6 months to migrate before we pull the plug on Container Linux maintenance.
14:28:23 <bgilbert> I'm planning to write a Fedora Magazine post in the next couple weeks that introduces FCOS to the Fedora community.
14:28:46 <bgilbert> what it's for, how it works, what the plan is.
14:29:01 <bgilbert> to hopefully run around the time of the preview release.
14:29:28 <bgilbert> #info Fedora CoreOS stable release ~6 months after that
14:30:03 <bgilbert> #info The preview release will not be feature-complete; additional functionality and more cloud support will come during the preview period.
14:30:16 <bgilbert> aaaand I think that's about it.  thanks for listening, all.  questions?
14:30:44 <mattdm> Thanks bgilbert
14:31:06 <mattdm> I've been talking to the CPE team -- that's the "community platform engineering" group at Red Hat
14:31:28 <mattdm> do we have a sense of what we need from them for this launch?
14:31:34 <mattdm> both the preview and the stable release?
14:33:21 <bgilbert> there will be some infrastructure needed for FCOS, such as the update servers, an S3 bucket, etc.  we've mostly gotten the basic resources provisioned at this point.
14:33:51 <bgilbert> we have some unusual needs for the getfedora edition page.  the ticket for that is
14:33:53 <bgilbert> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-websites/issue/964
14:34:30 <bgilbert> Mo has produced a design, and AIUI the current plan is for FCOS folks to produce the page
14:34:38 <bgilbert> help there would be welcome, though
14:34:52 <mattdm> yeah, working on figuring that out.
14:34:57 <bgilbert> off the top of my head, I don't think there are other hard blockers atm
14:35:12 <mattdm> Is there an overall document for the infrastructure needs so I can show CPE management the big picture?
14:35:31 <bgilbert> no, but there should be.  I'll get one together
14:35:33 <bexelbie> Who on the FCOS team is doing the web work? I'd like to pull them into the larger web conversation around that ticket
14:36:00 <bgilbert> bexelbie: at the moment it's sbonic
14:36:49 <bexelbie> ok, I'll talk to her about hte work she is doing - thanks
14:36:53 <bgilbert> bexelbie: +1
14:36:57 <mattdm> bgilbert++
14:36:58 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for bgilbert changed to 4 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:37:12 <mattdm> thanks getting that together would be _really_ helpful.
14:37:18 <bgilbert> mattdm: sure thing
14:37:30 <mattdm> anything else, anyone?
14:38:02 <mattdm> okay. thanks bgilbert!
14:38:08 <mattdm> #topic Fedora IoT
14:38:25 <mattdm> pbrobinson: hi! how's things over in our other new edition? :)
14:38:34 <pbrobinson> we're getting there
14:39:06 <pbrobinson> took a bit of a breather after f30 came out with all the fun of RH summit and then I got sick
14:39:08 <bexelbie> one tiny machien at a time eh :P
14:39:17 <pbrobinson> starting to ramp up now and move towards edition
14:40:29 <pbrobinson> so in the next week or two I'm cleaning up a bunch of our process around releases and then we'll do another f30 based release and go for edition
14:40:44 <pbrobinson> I think that should all be done by the end of June
14:41:53 <pbrobinson> we have a taiga instance on teams.fp.o and I'm working out how best to use that as part of the WG
14:42:27 <pbrobinson> we'll be ramping that up over the next few weeks and using it a lot for F-31, plus the F-30 cycle
14:42:54 <pbrobinson> that's about all I have that I can think of off the top of my head
14:43:16 <mattdm> cool thanks.
14:43:28 <mattdm> End of june is very soon :0
14:43:47 <mattdm> I have the same question I asked bgilbert :) ...
14:43:48 <pbrobinson> yes
14:43:56 <contyk> whole 11 days
14:44:06 <contyk> well, not anymore
14:44:06 <mattdm> Is there an overall doc of the plan that includes CPE needs from a high level?
14:44:10 * pbrobinson needs to read back on that discussion as I was running another meeting
14:44:52 <pbrobinson> mattdm: not that includes CPE, the big thing we need there is container build pipeline for all our intended architectures
14:45:02 <pbrobinson> that's been a request from the outset
14:45:22 <mattdm> is there a ticket for that request, or a document showing it?
14:45:31 <mattdm> I need this stuff to be able to help :)
14:45:45 <pbrobinson> there's been tickets around aarch64 support
14:46:32 <pbrobinson> but I've had discussions with people a lot for some time so it's not unknown to them, although no doubt it'll be denied because their process has probably changed
14:46:46 <mattdm> Yeah this is why I need an overall document
14:47:18 <mattdm> I won't argue about the past and what they should have known, just say "here, this is the plan"
14:48:13 <pbrobinson> mattdm: all our docs are in docs.fp.o and there's some high level docs there
14:48:32 <pbrobinson> mattdm: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/iot/prd/
14:49:01 <bexelbie> I love that the PRD is in docs.fp.o and hope that bgilbert will put the Fedora CoreOS one there as well
14:49:03 <pbrobinson> mattdm: in particular the Edition Objectives mention containers
14:49:22 <mattdm> bexelbie++
14:49:33 <pbrobinson> to quote "The base edition will support multiple architectures, initially including x86_64, aarch64 and ARMv7, and include the ability to produce supported containers across all architectures for various IoT use-cases and verticals."
14:49:36 <bgilbert> bexelbie: +1
14:50:01 <bexelbie> for that matter ... /me looks at desktop, server, etc.
14:51:14 <mattdm> pbrobinson: so basically that prd plus
14:51:18 <mattdm> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives/Fedora_IoT
14:51:22 <mattdm> #link https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/iot/prd/
14:53:10 <pbrobinson> mattdm: right, do you need any more from me for that then?
14:53:10 <mattdm> okay, thanks pbrobinson
14:53:31 <pbrobinson> we should probably also merge that wiki page into the PRD in docs.fp.o?
14:53:39 <mattdm> I think a one-page write-up focused on the edition launch and CPE needs, referering back to those would be really helpful
14:53:52 <mattdm> pbrobinson if its not just obsolete at launch
14:54:00 <pbrobinson> OK
14:54:46 <mattdm> okay let's use the last five minutes for flock :)
14:54:52 <mattdm> #topic Flock updates
14:54:56 <mattdm> bexelbie: hot seat for you!
14:55:08 <mattdm> The call for talks is in progress
14:55:13 * bexelbie has disconnected
14:55:15 <bexelbie> j/k
14:55:23 <langdon> ha
14:55:37 <bexelbie> CfP and Funding decisions are both in progress
14:55:39 <mattdm> #please share this blog post:
14:55:48 <mattdm> #link https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/flock-talk-session-proposal-reminder/
14:55:56 <mattdm> lol #please is not a command but should be
14:56:00 <bexelbie> CfP notifications for initially accepted talks shoudl go out this week
14:56:08 * bexelbie looks at mattdm and notes calendar is back up :P
14:56:22 <bexelbie> round 1 funding notifications went out yesterday and round 2 is in progress
14:57:14 * langdon just shared it out
14:57:40 <bcotton> mattdm: #help is a command :-)
14:58:40 <mattdm> okay, I guess that'll do for this week :)
14:58:42 <mattdm> thanks everyone!
14:58:46 <mattdm> #endmeeting