14:01:06 <mattdm> #startmeeting Council (2019-06-26) 14:01:06 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jun 26 14:01:06 2019 UTC. 14:01:06 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location. 14:01:06 <zodbot> The chair is mattdm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 14:01:06 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 14:01:06 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2019-06-26)' 14:01:08 <mattdm> #meetingname council 14:01:08 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council' 14:01:10 <mattdm> #chair jonatoni bex contyk dgilmore dperpeet langdon mattdm sumantrom tyll bcotton pbrobinson asamalik 14:01:10 <zodbot> Current chairs: asamalik bcotton bex contyk dgilmore dperpeet jonatoni langdon mattdm pbrobinson sumantrom tyll 14:01:12 <mattdm> #topic Introductions, Welcomes 14:01:15 <bcotton> .hello2 14:01:16 <zodbot> bcotton: bcotton 'Ben Cotton' <bcotton@redhat.com> 14:01:30 <contyk> .hello psabata 14:01:31 <zodbot> contyk: psabata 'Petr Šabata' <psabata@redhat.com> 14:01:36 <dperpeet> .hello dperpeet 14:01:36 <mattdm> This is the Engineering, Mindshare, and D&I update 14:01:36 <zodbot> dperpeet: dperpeet 'None' <dperpeet@redhat.com> 14:01:40 <contyk> in a call that is going over, I'll be a little late 14:01:43 <mattdm> good contyk is here :) 14:01:59 <bcotton> TIL dperpeet doesn't have a name, just an alias 14:02:01 <langdon> mattdm: me too.. and stickster too.. i think 14:02:04 <mattdm> Let's see if sumantro and jonatoni are around to go first.... 14:02:11 <langdon> .hello2 14:02:12 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <langdon@redhat.com> 14:02:12 <mattdm> stickster: is out, right? :) 14:02:27 <bcotton> there is no stickster, only zuul^W asamalik 14:02:34 <dperpeet> bcotton, it gives me more anonymity... have you ever tried searching "None" in a search engine and tie it to me? good luck! 14:02:42 <mattdm> this is what i was updating the template for :) 14:03:04 <bcotton> dperpeet: a friend set his university email address to `usernotfound@purdue.edu`. it confused a lot of people 14:03:13 <mattdm> bcotton: did you just decline the calendar invite for this meeting you're at right now? 14:03:31 <contyk> so, anyone joining jitsi? 14:03:45 <bcotton> mattdm: not.....as far as i know 14:03:50 <contyk> sumantro and jonatoni are there 14:03:52 <langdon> ohh i forgot 14:04:00 <mattdm> oh! okay, jitsi it is 14:04:02 <langdon> re: stickster and asamalik 14:04:10 <mattdm> hold on, I got myself confused. more coffee is needed :) 14:04:31 <langdon> whats the jitsi url again? 14:04:49 <bcotton> #link https://meet.jit.si/FedoraCouncil 14:04:55 <mattdm> let's go there! 14:04:58 <langdon> thanks 14:06:06 <bexelbie> .hello2 14:06:07 <zodbot> bexelbie: Sorry, but you don't exist 14:06:10 <bexelbie> .hello bex 14:06:11 <zodbot> bexelbie: bex 'Brian (bex) Exelbierd' <bexelbie@redhat.com> 14:08:10 <bcotton> #info Today's meeting is a video conference held in Jitsi. We will record notes here for posterity 14:08:14 <asamalik> hey, I'm at a conference 14:08:33 * bcotton cracks knuckles and prepares Transcript-O-Matic 14:08:43 <asamalik> sorry for not being available this week, I'll see you next week 14:09:22 <bcotton> #info Due to technical difficulties, this call is not going to be recorded 14:09:55 <bcotton> #topic Diversity & Inclusion update 14:10:32 <bcotton> #info Planning Fedora Womens' Day 2019 14:10:37 <mattdm> thanks bcotton 14:10:39 <mattdm> bcotton++ 14:10:40 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for bcotton changed to 15 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 14:10:40 <tatica_> .hello tatica 14:10:43 <zodbot> tatica_: tatica 'Maria Gracia Leandro Lombardo' <tatadbb@gmail.com> 14:11:07 <bcotton> #info talks and workshops proposed for Flock: D&I hackfest, candy swap, speak a non-English language, etc 14:11:43 <contyk> lost the sound 14:11:45 <contyk> is it just me? 14:11:46 <bcotton> hi tatica_, we're in https://meet.jit.si/FedoraCouncil 14:11:48 <bcotton> contyk: me too 14:11:58 <bcotton> jonatoni: we lost your audio 14:12:24 <mattdm> yeah no audio :( 14:12:28 <tatica_> thx 14:12:29 <contyk> :| 14:12:36 <contyk> I can't hear anyone 14:12:51 <contyk> not even bexelbie 14:13:04 <contyk> let's try reconnecting 14:13:08 <bexelbie> I hear Jona and Matthew 14:13:10 <tatica_> I can hear Jona 14:13:14 <bexelbie> we all hear you 14:13:19 <bexelbie> mattdm we hear you 14:13:21 <tatica_> yes 14:13:27 <bcotton> bexelbie: i don't hear mattdm 14:14:00 <contyk> let's do irc 14:14:17 * bexelbie is here 14:14:30 * sumantro is here 14:14:35 <mattdm> and then we bailed on jitsi 14:14:41 <contyk> again 14:14:50 <jonatoni> okay, I will continue here the updates 14:15:01 <mattdm> thanks jonatoni . sorry about that! 14:15:24 <langdon> that was fun! 14:15:31 <contyk> first mattdm forgets it's our jitsi day 14:15:34 <contyk> and then he breaks it 14:15:39 <langdon> ha 14:15:49 <jonatoni> work in progress for our team is still the "Best practices guide for D&I at Fedora events" and defining better the Fedora D&I Rep and Team lead role, responsibilities and term 14:16:02 <langdon> but at least I get to try my new mobile irc client! 14:16:06 <jonatoni> I don't know if I should start from the beginning :P 14:16:23 <jonatoni> but that's it from my side 14:16:24 <contyk> let's vote on that 14:16:24 <mattdm> yeah maybe so :( sorry 14:16:29 <mattdm> contyk: no :) 14:17:15 <jonatoni> overview of what we are doing, our focus has been FWD 2019 and Flock proposals 14:17:29 <bcotton> jonatoni: please #info highlights for the minutes :-) 14:17:51 <jonatoni> bcotton: yeah, right, sorry will do that now 14:18:07 <bcotton> jonatoni: i got your FWD and Flock proposals already 14:18:14 <jonatoni> #info overview of the D&I work: focus on the FWD and Flock proposals 14:18:46 <jonatoni> regarding FWD (Fedora Women's Day) we will post an article soon with the new dates and we are working on improvements based on the feedback we received from last year 14:20:00 <jonatoni> regarding Flock our priority is a mini hackfest to finish some pending works/decisions that are more helpful when all (almost) all the team members are in the same room 14:20:51 <jonatoni> also we have been working on onboarding and inactive members 14:21:43 <jonatoni> how to approach them/how to make the onboarding easier etc 14:21:44 <mattdm> The work for onboarding and for reengaging inactive members seems particularly interesting 14:21:55 <mattdm> we have a problem with that in the project as a whole 14:22:28 <jonatoni> for now it's focused only for the D&I team, but if it goes well we can apply the same "method" for the whole project 14:22:38 <mattdm> Yeah -- that's a good approach 14:22:46 <mattdm> Trying to solve everything is going to be too much 14:22:52 <jonatoni> yep 14:22:57 <mattdm> but solving it in your area and providing an example: priceless 14:23:34 <jonatoni> #info Work in progress for the D&I team is still the "Best practices guide for D&I at Fedora events" and defining better the Fedora D&I Rep and Team lead role, responsibilities and term 14:24:16 <jonatoni> we plan to have new D&I council rep and team lead after Flock, so we will have elections etc - so basically we will decide on the rules during Flock 14:24:27 <jonatoni> as part of the hackfest 14:25:07 <jonatoni> that's an overview what we have been doing and what we are currently working on 14:25:50 <mattdm> that seems like a good concrete outcome from the hackfest. 14:26:04 <mattdm> thanks jonatoni! any particular needs or requests from the council right now? 14:26:11 <bcotton> jonatoni: any thoughts to having D&I council rep/team lead align to the election cycle? (whether or not you conduct an election to select the person) 14:26:26 <jonatoni> mattdm: nope 14:26:36 <jonatoni> bcotton: actually that would be great 14:26:58 <bcotton> jonatoni: and if you do need to run an election, i know someone who could make that happen :-) 14:27:03 <mattdm> :) 14:27:16 <mattdm> ok contyk you want to go next? 14:27:21 <contyk> suuure 14:27:21 <jonatoni> bcotton: thanks, we will ping you for sure :) 14:27:21 <bcotton> it just seems simpler to have everything align together 14:27:28 <bcotton> jonatoni++ 14:27:29 <zodbot> bcotton: Karma for jonatoni changed to 1 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 14:27:46 <contyk> so I picked a few things this time 14:27:55 <contyk> some recent development activities 14:28:07 <contyk> 1. EPEL 8 14:28:12 <mattdm> wait let me change the topic 14:28:18 <mattdm> #topic Engineering/FESCo status 14:28:27 <mattdm> #info EPEL 8 14:28:32 <mattdm> ok go :) 14:28:45 <mattdm> I've been getting "when will EPEL 8 be ready" questions a lot 14:28:54 <contyk> okay, so the EPEL team is working on making a beta of EPEL 8.0 available within July 14:29:14 <bcotton> #info the EPEL team is working on making a beta of EPEL 8.0 available within July 14:29:15 <contyk> the code should be available and mostly working starting next week but fully anounced on August 1, unless things have changed since last week 14:29:50 <contyk> the initial beta will include RHEL modules in the buildroot but will not allow for EPEL module builds yet 14:29:58 <contyk> that is planned for "stage 2" which currently doesn't have an ETA 14:30:05 <bcotton> contyk: can someone on the EPEL team take a task of writing a Fedora Magazine article? that would make stickster very happy 14:30:22 <contyk> bcotton: that is a very good idea, I'll talk to them 14:30:37 <mattdm> I am VERY keen on stage 2 14:30:52 <mattdm> stage 2 is 95% of why I wanted modularity in the first place 14:31:22 <contyk> I discussed the current implementation with smooge and I think it will be fairly easy to alter it later so that MBS can work with the content 14:31:30 <contyk> for now, non-modular buildroot is a priority 14:31:45 <langdon> in not epel, right? 14:31:49 <mattdm> I am accepting of the needs of getting _something_ in place, yeah. 14:31:56 <contyk> langdon: what do you mean? 14:32:10 <langdon> ohh sorry.. modular-buildroot in fedora is pushing down priorities of epel? 14:32:27 <contyk> mmm, no 14:32:33 <contyk> it's just disconnected somewhat 14:32:43 <langdon> but maybe i just read that wrong.. because i thought you said above the epel would be modular+non-modular buildroot 14:32:47 <contyk> the EPEL team is focusing on making the "platform", non-modular buildroot available first 14:33:11 <contyk> but RHEL has non-modular content that depends on default modules 14:33:28 <contyk> so to make that available and have it work, you need to have all that working somehow 14:33:54 <contyk> so the team is decomposing RHEL 8 + CRB into non-modular package set + individual modules 14:34:07 <contyk> then creating a repository from that and publishing it in koji 14:34:24 <mattdm> and that's "EPEL Buildroot"? 14:34:27 <langdon> ahh i see... but the modules will be "just rpms" in that buildroot? 14:34:29 <contyk> yes 14:34:34 <contyk> yes to both 14:35:15 <mattdm> #info EPEL Buildroot will be made from a decomposed RHEL 8 + CodeReady Builder put together as a "flat" repo in koji 14:35:19 <langdon> ok.. well.. that dead horse has been well beaten! 14:35:21 <mattdm> ^ right? 14:35:25 <contyk> right 14:35:39 <langdon> i would revise "flat" to "non-modular" perhaps 14:35:49 <langdon> or not.. just leave it 14:35:50 <contyk> well, it includes modular RPMs 14:35:57 <contyk> but it's a flat repo with no modular metadata 14:36:11 <contyk> anyway, EPEL's plenty exciting but there's more 14:36:12 <langdon> and no distinction of crb vs rhel 14:36:19 <mattdm> ok next exciting thing then! 14:36:22 <bexelbie> And for clarity 14:36:30 <bexelbie> module RPM names don't conflict with non-module names 14:36:31 <bexelbie> correct? 14:36:37 <bexelbie> that is what allows the flattening? 14:36:41 <langdon> they do.. but because it is just default modules 14:36:44 <langdon> there can be only one 14:36:46 <contyk> they can conflict 14:36:49 <mattdm> because I want to leave a few minutes for sumantro and I have another meeting right after this one 14:36:51 <contyk> but the flattening resolves that 14:37:13 <bexelbie> so does this mean spec fixes to require the right rpm are part of this effort? 14:37:19 * bexelbie is trying to understand the effort 14:37:37 <langdon> no... there is only one module of each stream possible.. the default in rhel8 .. so no collisions 14:37:40 <contyk> that would be for a separate meeting, I suppose :) 14:37:46 <contyk> but technically there can be a name conflict 14:37:57 <contyk> but if that RPM is available in a default module in RHEL, it would mask the non-modular one, always 14:38:11 <contyk> when you then compose a flat repo, you just drop the non-modular one because you only need one artifact in the buildroot 14:38:17 <contyk> and EPEL cannot override those by policy 14:38:25 <mattdm> yeah let's take this to a "details" discussion on a mailing list 14:38:32 <contyk> cool 14:38:33 <langdon> the point is.. there is no effort here aside from munging it all together.. no spec file changes.. unless something weird is going on 14:38:33 <contyk> so 14:38:34 <bexelbie> ok, I am happy and can wait on the details meeting 14:38:46 <bcotton> contyk: quick y/n question 14:38:48 <contyk> #info RPM zstd compression coming to Rawhide 14:38:53 <contyk> bcotton: yes 14:38:58 <langdon> no 14:38:59 <bcotton> contyk: nevermind, i'll let you get through your list first 14:39:16 <contyk> so this is just an announcement that the zstd rpm change was approved 14:39:27 <langdon> \o/ 14:39:32 <contyk> the change proposal page includes some exciting examples how it can reduce installation time 14:39:50 <mattdm> this means future Fedora RPMs will not install on RHEL 8, right? 14:39:52 <contyk> in some cases it's even up to 80% reduction 14:40:07 <contyk> that's an open question, still 14:40:17 <contyk> it's possible RHEL 8 rpm will support the compression method 14:40:20 <mattdm> Will Fedora source RPMs unpack with the rpm command in RHEL 8? 14:40:32 <contyk> furthermore, SRPMs will continue to be gzipped so one can rebuild those in RHEL 14:40:39 <contyk> ha ^ 14:40:45 <mattdm> ah okay. that's my main concern really :) 14:40:48 <mattdm> thanks :) 14:40:56 <contyk> cool 14:41:05 <contyk> #info Dynamic build dependencies 14:41:24 <mattdm> that seems scary. I'm glad we had this meeting :) 14:41:29 <contyk> Rawhide now supports dynamic buildrequires and some stacks are already taking advantage of this 14:42:06 <contyk> in concept this is adding one more pass to the build where additional tools analyze the source and add build dependencies to the srpm 14:42:15 <contyk> koji, mock and even copr already support this 14:42:33 <contyk> and packagers can easily play with this locally using rpmbuild 14:42:42 <contyk> this change should simplify our spec files going forward 14:43:00 <mattdm> is there a link to docs for people who want to learn more? 14:43:01 <contyk> my main concern was that the source repo wouldn't contain enough information to do useful queries but that was addressed 14:43:30 <contyk> the change proposal page provides some examples 14:43:33 <contyk> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/DynamicBuildRequires 14:44:16 <contyk> I'm looking forward to wider adoption here 14:44:33 <contyk> many upstreams provide the dependency information in their software and this would really simplify the packaging work 14:44:36 <bexelbie> Will we see packaging guidelines updates around this? 14:45:08 <contyk> that's a good question; I'll bring it up with fpc 14:45:28 <bexelbie> My recent packaging experience is leading me to beleive we have gaps here 14:45:36 <mattdm> contyk: thanks! 14:45:45 <bexelbie> TY 14:45:53 <mattdm> anything else quick before we hear from sumantro? 14:45:54 <sumantro> #info We are having GSoC and Outreachy running smoothly, bcotton is a mentor and bexelbie and me are OAs. Going by the comments everyone is having a pleasant time there. :) 14:46:07 <bcotton> o/ 14:46:08 <sumantro> sorry I hurried 14:46:10 <mattdm> sumantro wait let me change topics :) 14:46:13 <contyk> :)) 14:46:13 <mattdm> #undo 14:46:13 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: INFO by sumantro at 14:45:54 : We are having GSoC and Outreachy running smoothly, bcotton is a mentor and bexelbie and me are OAs. Going by the comments everyone is having a pleasant time there. :) 14:46:18 <contyk> so, yeah 14:46:26 <contyk> I had two more minor things and an update on the f31 schedule 14:46:33 <contyk> but we can proceed to mindshare 14:46:34 <mattdm> quickly :) 14:46:39 <contyk> ack 14:46:40 <bcotton> contyk: do we have someone on FESCo driving the resolution of the modularity issue igor raised? 14:46:52 <smooge> mattdm, langdon contyk maybe this document helps discuss EPEL-8? https://hackmd.io/@ssmoogen/rysKDi01H 14:46:55 <contyk> that was one of them 14:47:12 <contyk> there are several ways to solve those problems but it boils down to two things 14:47:25 <contyk> 1. not enough documentation and "best practices" guidelines, the modularity team will work on that 14:47:50 <contyk> 2. thinking things through before packaging things that need parallel installation into separate streams 14:47:51 <langdon> re 1: which is part of the new objective doc... 14:47:58 <smooge> ooh sorry.. scroll failure 14:48:05 <contyk> we can help with resolving #2 through #1 and individual discussions 14:48:22 <contyk> langdon: +1 14:48:49 <langdon> smooge: i think we should jump back to that topic for a sec and #link that article.. i think it will definitely help others 14:49:00 <contyk> #info The Modularity team will provide better guidance to prevent the situations such as the one we had with libgit recently 14:49:12 <mattdm> good :) 14:49:15 <contyk> and that could be it, I'll hand it over to sumantro 14:49:20 <mattdm> contyk: thanks! 14:49:25 <mattdm> #topic Mindshare update 14:49:25 <langdon> mattdm: want to jump back topics? 14:49:34 <sumantro> #info We are having GSoC and Outreachy running smoothly, bcotton is a mentor and bexelbie and me are OAs. Going by the comments everyone is having a pleasant time there. :) 14:49:41 <langdon> at the end perhaps 14:49:50 <sumantro> #info 2. bexelbie wrote down a bunch of ideas to deal with fallouts of people-forgetting-to submit-event-reports 14:50:02 <langdon> sorry acronym expansion fail.. "OA"? 14:50:06 <sumantro> #info 3. We are still having event requests coming in and release party requests flowing in 14:50:06 <mattdm> (langdon: don't think there's time. mailing list discussion?) 14:50:12 <sumantro> Org Admin 14:50:17 <langdon> gotcha 14:50:47 <mattdm> sumantro: how are we on the "party a week" goal we set at the Council hackfest? 14:50:51 <langdon> i look forward to the one mattdm is planning for the boston rht office 14:51:10 <sumantro> bexelbie is helping out with swags and budget but there is an update on the shipping note and and its something to look out for 14:51:58 <sumantro> mattdm, we are closer to the goal but we lack a serious amount of activity as we need to sort out the amby program as soon as possible. 14:52:09 <mattdm> langdon: someone who doesn't have to take the Totally Broken Red Line to get there should propose that :) 14:52:35 <langdon> lol 14:52:37 <mattdm> sumantro: sorting out that program is probably more than an 8 minute discussion. but I'm definitely interested in that 14:52:59 <sumantro> Mindshare members have proposed workshop at Flock which should solve some of the problems 14:53:25 <sumantro> ^mattdm those are the problems we are looking at 14:53:48 <mattdm> sumantro: thanks. I'll look at the workshop -- hopefully it can have concrete output 14:53:54 <sumantro> https://pagure.io/flock/issue/159 14:54:03 <sumantro> https://pagure.io/flock/issue/136 14:54:14 <sumantro> these two are the ones :) 14:54:14 <mattdm> thanks 14:55:02 <sumantro> we will shortly be starting the Fedora 31 Classroom sessions and onboarding calls 14:55:28 <mattdm> Is that still being run mostly out of Fedora Join or is that directly Mindshare? 14:56:00 <sumantro> Join but then thats falls under Mindshare , and then me to present data :) 14:56:28 <mattdm> perfect :) 14:57:03 <sumantro> Fedora will apply for the upcoming Google Code In which it did last year and 2 of our winners with siddharthvipul is now attending the summit 14:57:59 <sumantro> that's all from my side .. any QnA? :) 14:58:51 <mattdm> Thanks sumantro! 14:59:01 <mattdm> I'll take a look at the Flock plans 14:59:14 <mattdm> I've got to run to my next meeting. Thanks everyone! 14:59:17 <mattdm> #endmeeting