14:01:06 <mattdm> #startmeeting Council (2019-06-26)
14:01:06 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jun 26 14:01:06 2019 UTC.
14:01:06 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
14:01:06 <zodbot> The chair is mattdm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:01:06 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:01:06 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2019-06-26)'
14:01:08 <mattdm> #meetingname council
14:01:08 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council'
14:01:10 <mattdm> #chair jonatoni bex contyk dgilmore dperpeet langdon mattdm sumantrom tyll bcotton pbrobinson asamalik
14:01:10 <zodbot> Current chairs: asamalik bcotton bex contyk dgilmore dperpeet jonatoni langdon mattdm pbrobinson sumantrom tyll
14:01:12 <mattdm> #topic Introductions, Welcomes
14:01:15 <bcotton> .hello2
14:01:16 <zodbot> bcotton: bcotton 'Ben Cotton' <bcotton@redhat.com>
14:01:30 <contyk> .hello psabata
14:01:31 <zodbot> contyk: psabata 'Petr Ĺ abata' <psabata@redhat.com>
14:01:36 <dperpeet> .hello dperpeet
14:01:36 <mattdm> This is the Engineering, Mindshare, and D&I update
14:01:36 <zodbot> dperpeet: dperpeet 'None' <dperpeet@redhat.com>
14:01:40 <contyk> in a call that is going over, I'll be a little late
14:01:43 <mattdm> good contyk is here :)
14:01:59 <bcotton> TIL dperpeet doesn't have a name, just an alias
14:02:01 <langdon> mattdm: me too.. and stickster too.. i think
14:02:04 <mattdm> Let's see if  sumantro and jonatoni  are around to go first....
14:02:11 <langdon> .hello2
14:02:12 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <langdon@redhat.com>
14:02:12 <mattdm> stickster: is out, right? :)
14:02:27 <bcotton> there is no stickster, only zuul^W asamalik
14:02:34 <dperpeet> bcotton, it gives me more anonymity... have you ever tried searching "None" in a search engine and tie it to me? good luck!
14:02:42 <mattdm> this is what i was updating the template for :)
14:03:04 <bcotton> dperpeet: a friend set his university email address to `usernotfound@purdue.edu`. it confused a lot of people
14:03:13 <mattdm> bcotton: did you just decline the calendar invite for this meeting you're at right now?
14:03:31 <contyk> so, anyone joining jitsi?
14:03:45 <bcotton> mattdm: not.....as far as i know
14:03:50 <contyk> sumantro and jonatoni are there
14:03:52 <langdon> ohh i forgot
14:04:00 <mattdm> oh! okay, jitsi it is
14:04:02 <langdon> re: stickster and asamalik
14:04:10 <mattdm> hold on, I got myself confused. more coffee is needed :)
14:04:31 <langdon> whats the jitsi url again?
14:04:49 <bcotton> #link https://meet.jit.si/FedoraCouncil
14:04:55 <mattdm> let's go there!
14:04:58 <langdon> thanks
14:06:06 <bexelbie> .hello2
14:06:07 <zodbot> bexelbie: Sorry, but you don't exist
14:06:10 <bexelbie> .hello bex
14:06:11 <zodbot> bexelbie: bex 'Brian (bex) Exelbierd' <bexelbie@redhat.com>
14:08:10 <bcotton> #info Today's meeting is a video conference held in Jitsi. We will record notes here for posterity
14:08:14 <asamalik> hey, I'm at a conference
14:08:33 * bcotton cracks knuckles and prepares Transcript-O-Matic
14:08:43 <asamalik> sorry for not being available this week, I'll see you next week
14:09:22 <bcotton> #info Due to technical difficulties, this call is not going to be recorded
14:09:55 <bcotton> #topic Diversity & Inclusion update
14:10:32 <bcotton> #info Planning Fedora Womens' Day 2019
14:10:37 <mattdm> thanks bcotton
14:10:39 <mattdm> bcotton++
14:10:40 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for bcotton changed to 15 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:10:40 <tatica_> .hello tatica
14:10:43 <zodbot> tatica_: tatica 'Maria Gracia Leandro Lombardo' <tatadbb@gmail.com>
14:11:07 <bcotton> #info talks and workshops proposed for Flock: D&I hackfest, candy swap, speak a non-English language, etc
14:11:43 <contyk> lost the sound
14:11:45 <contyk> is it just me?
14:11:46 <bcotton> hi tatica_, we're in https://meet.jit.si/FedoraCouncil
14:11:48 <bcotton> contyk: me too
14:11:58 <bcotton> jonatoni: we lost your audio
14:12:24 <mattdm> yeah no audio :(
14:12:28 <tatica_> thx
14:12:29 <contyk> :|
14:12:36 <contyk> I can't hear anyone
14:12:51 <contyk> not even bexelbie
14:13:04 <contyk> let's try reconnecting
14:13:08 <bexelbie> I hear Jona and Matthew
14:13:10 <tatica_> I can hear Jona
14:13:14 <bexelbie> we all hear you
14:13:19 <bexelbie> mattdm we hear you
14:13:21 <tatica_> yes
14:13:27 <bcotton> bexelbie: i don't hear mattdm
14:14:00 <contyk> let's do irc
14:14:17 * bexelbie is here
14:14:30 * sumantro is here
14:14:35 <mattdm> and then we bailed on jitsi
14:14:41 <contyk> again
14:14:50 <jonatoni> okay, I will continue here the updates
14:15:01 <mattdm> thanks jonatoni . sorry about that!
14:15:24 <langdon> that was fun!
14:15:31 <contyk> first mattdm forgets it's our jitsi day
14:15:34 <contyk> and then he breaks it
14:15:39 <langdon> ha
14:15:49 <jonatoni> work in progress for our team is still the "Best practices guide for D&I at Fedora events" and defining better the Fedora D&I Rep and Team lead role, responsibilities and term
14:16:02 <langdon> but at least I get to try my new mobile irc client!
14:16:06 <jonatoni> I don't know if I should start from the beginning :P
14:16:23 <jonatoni> but that's it from my side
14:16:24 <contyk> let's vote on that
14:16:24 <mattdm> yeah maybe so :( sorry
14:16:29 <mattdm> contyk: no :)
14:17:15 <jonatoni> overview of what we are doing, our focus has been FWD 2019 and Flock proposals
14:17:29 <bcotton> jonatoni: please #info highlights for the minutes :-)
14:17:51 <jonatoni> bcotton: yeah, right, sorry will do that now
14:18:07 <bcotton> jonatoni: i got your FWD and Flock proposals already
14:18:14 <jonatoni> #info overview of the D&I work: focus on the FWD and Flock proposals
14:18:46 <jonatoni> regarding FWD (Fedora Women's Day) we will post an article soon with the new dates and we are working on improvements based on the feedback we received from last year
14:20:00 <jonatoni> regarding Flock our priority is a mini hackfest to finish some pending works/decisions that are more helpful when all (almost) all the team members are in the same room
14:20:51 <jonatoni> also we have been working on onboarding and inactive members
14:21:43 <jonatoni> how to approach them/how to make the onboarding easier etc
14:21:44 <mattdm> The work for onboarding and for reengaging inactive members seems particularly interesting
14:21:55 <mattdm> we have a problem with that in the project as a whole
14:22:28 <jonatoni> for now it's focused only for the D&I team, but if it goes well we can apply the same "method" for the whole project
14:22:38 <mattdm> Yeah -- that's a good approach
14:22:46 <mattdm> Trying to solve everything is going to be too much
14:22:52 <jonatoni> yep
14:22:57 <mattdm> but solving it in your area and providing an example: priceless
14:23:34 <jonatoni> #info Work in progress for the D&I team is still the "Best practices guide for D&I at Fedora events" and defining better the Fedora D&I Rep and Team lead role, responsibilities and term
14:24:16 <jonatoni> we plan to have new D&I council rep and team lead after Flock, so we will have elections etc - so basically we will decide on the rules during Flock
14:24:27 <jonatoni> as part of the hackfest
14:25:07 <jonatoni> that's an overview what we have been doing and what we are currently working on
14:25:50 <mattdm> that seems like a good concrete outcome from the hackfest.
14:26:04 <mattdm> thanks jonatoni! any particular needs or requests from the council right now?
14:26:11 <bcotton> jonatoni: any thoughts to having D&I council rep/team lead align to the election cycle? (whether or not you conduct an election to select the person)
14:26:26 <jonatoni> mattdm: nope
14:26:36 <jonatoni> bcotton: actually that would be great
14:26:58 <bcotton> jonatoni: and if you do need to run an election, i know someone who could make that happen :-)
14:27:03 <mattdm> :)
14:27:16 <mattdm> ok contyk you want to go next?
14:27:21 <contyk> suuure
14:27:21 <jonatoni> bcotton: thanks, we will ping you for sure :)
14:27:21 <bcotton> it just seems simpler to have everything align together
14:27:28 <bcotton> jonatoni++
14:27:29 <zodbot> bcotton: Karma for jonatoni changed to 1 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:27:46 <contyk> so I picked a few things this time
14:27:55 <contyk> some recent development activities
14:28:07 <contyk> 1. EPEL 8
14:28:12 <mattdm> wait let me change the topic
14:28:18 <mattdm> #topic Engineering/FESCo status
14:28:27 <mattdm> #info EPEL 8
14:28:32 <mattdm> ok go :)
14:28:45 <mattdm> I've been getting "when will EPEL 8 be ready" questions a lot
14:28:54 <contyk> okay, so the EPEL team is working on making a beta of EPEL 8.0 available within July
14:29:14 <bcotton> #info the EPEL team is working on making a beta of EPEL 8.0 available within July
14:29:15 <contyk> the code should be available and mostly working starting next week but fully anounced on August 1, unless things have changed since last week
14:29:50 <contyk> the initial beta will include RHEL modules in the buildroot but will not allow for EPEL module builds yet
14:29:58 <contyk> that is planned for "stage 2" which currently doesn't have an ETA
14:30:05 <bcotton> contyk: can someone on the EPEL team take a task of writing a Fedora Magazine article? that would make stickster very happy
14:30:22 <contyk> bcotton: that is a very good idea, I'll talk to them
14:30:37 <mattdm> I am VERY keen on stage 2
14:30:52 <mattdm> stage 2 is 95% of why I wanted modularity in the first place
14:31:22 <contyk> I discussed the current implementation with smooge and I think it will be fairly easy to alter it later so that MBS can work with the content
14:31:30 <contyk> for now, non-modular buildroot is a priority
14:31:45 <langdon> in not epel, right?
14:31:49 <mattdm> I am accepting of the needs of getting _something_ in place, yeah.
14:31:56 <contyk> langdon: what do you mean?
14:32:10 <langdon> ohh sorry.. modular-buildroot in fedora is pushing down priorities of epel?
14:32:27 <contyk> mmm, no
14:32:33 <contyk> it's just disconnected somewhat
14:32:43 <langdon> but maybe i just read that wrong.. because i thought you said above the epel would be modular+non-modular buildroot
14:32:47 <contyk> the EPEL team is focusing on making the "platform", non-modular buildroot available first
14:33:11 <contyk> but RHEL has non-modular content that depends on default modules
14:33:28 <contyk> so to make that available and have it work, you need to have all that working somehow
14:33:54 <contyk> so the team is decomposing RHEL 8 + CRB into non-modular package set + individual modules
14:34:07 <contyk> then creating a repository from that and publishing it in koji
14:34:24 <mattdm> and that's "EPEL Buildroot"?
14:34:27 <langdon> ahh i see... but the modules will be "just rpms" in that buildroot?
14:34:29 <contyk> yes
14:34:34 <contyk> yes to both
14:35:15 <mattdm> #info EPEL Buildroot will be made from a decomposed RHEL 8 + CodeReady Builder put together as a "flat" repo in koji
14:35:19 <langdon> ok.. well.. that dead horse has been well beaten!
14:35:21 <mattdm> ^ right?
14:35:25 <contyk> right
14:35:39 <langdon> i would revise "flat" to "non-modular" perhaps
14:35:49 <langdon> or not.. just leave it
14:35:50 <contyk> well, it includes modular RPMs
14:35:57 <contyk> but it's a flat repo with no modular metadata
14:36:11 <contyk> anyway, EPEL's plenty exciting but there's more
14:36:12 <langdon> and no distinction of crb vs rhel
14:36:19 <mattdm> ok next exciting thing then!
14:36:22 <bexelbie> And for clarity
14:36:30 <bexelbie> module RPM names don't conflict with non-module names
14:36:31 <bexelbie> correct?
14:36:37 <bexelbie> that is what allows the flattening?
14:36:41 <langdon> they do.. but because it is just default modules
14:36:44 <langdon> there can be only one
14:36:46 <contyk> they can conflict
14:36:49 <mattdm> because I want to leave a few minutes for sumantro and I have another meeting right after this one
14:36:51 <contyk> but the flattening resolves that
14:37:13 <bexelbie> so does this mean spec fixes to require the right rpm are part of this effort?
14:37:19 * bexelbie is trying to understand the effort
14:37:37 <langdon> no... there is only one module of each stream possible.. the default in rhel8 .. so no collisions
14:37:40 <contyk> that would be for a separate meeting, I suppose :)
14:37:46 <contyk> but technically there can be a name conflict
14:37:57 <contyk> but if that RPM is available in a default module in RHEL, it would mask the non-modular one, always
14:38:11 <contyk> when you then compose a flat repo, you just drop the non-modular one because you only need one artifact in the buildroot
14:38:17 <contyk> and EPEL cannot override those by policy
14:38:25 <mattdm> yeah let's take this to a "details" discussion on a mailing list
14:38:32 <contyk> cool
14:38:33 <langdon> the point is.. there is no effort here aside from munging it all together.. no spec file changes.. unless something weird is going on
14:38:33 <contyk> so
14:38:34 <bexelbie> ok, I am happy and can wait on the details meeting
14:38:46 <bcotton> contyk: quick y/n question
14:38:48 <contyk> #info RPM zstd compression coming to Rawhide
14:38:53 <contyk> bcotton: yes
14:38:58 <langdon> no
14:38:59 <bcotton> contyk: nevermind, i'll let you get through your list first
14:39:16 <contyk> so this is just an announcement that the zstd rpm change was approved
14:39:27 <langdon> \o/
14:39:32 <contyk> the change proposal page includes some exciting examples how it can reduce installation time
14:39:50 <mattdm> this means future Fedora RPMs will not install on RHEL 8, right?
14:39:52 <contyk> in some cases it's even up to 80% reduction
14:40:07 <contyk> that's an open question, still
14:40:17 <contyk> it's possible RHEL 8 rpm will support the compression method
14:40:20 <mattdm> Will Fedora source RPMs unpack with the rpm command in RHEL 8?
14:40:32 <contyk> furthermore, SRPMs will continue to be gzipped so one can rebuild those in RHEL
14:40:39 <contyk> ha ^
14:40:45 <mattdm> ah okay. that's my main concern really :)
14:40:48 <mattdm> thanks :)
14:40:56 <contyk> cool
14:41:05 <contyk> #info Dynamic build dependencies
14:41:24 <mattdm> that seems scary. I'm glad we had this meeting :)
14:41:29 <contyk> Rawhide now supports dynamic buildrequires and some stacks are already taking advantage of this
14:42:06 <contyk> in concept this is adding one more pass to the build where additional tools analyze the source and add build dependencies to the srpm
14:42:15 <contyk> koji, mock and even copr already support this
14:42:33 <contyk> and packagers can easily play with this locally using rpmbuild
14:42:42 <contyk> this change should simplify our spec files going forward
14:43:00 <mattdm> is there a link to docs for people who want to learn more?
14:43:01 <contyk> my main concern was that the source repo wouldn't contain enough information to do useful queries but that was addressed
14:43:30 <contyk> the change proposal page provides some examples
14:43:33 <contyk> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/DynamicBuildRequires
14:44:16 <contyk> I'm looking forward to wider adoption here
14:44:33 <contyk> many upstreams provide the dependency information in their software and this would really simplify the packaging work
14:44:36 <bexelbie> Will we see packaging guidelines updates around this?
14:45:08 <contyk> that's a good question; I'll bring it up with fpc
14:45:28 <bexelbie> My recent packaging experience is leading me to beleive we have gaps here
14:45:36 <mattdm> contyk: thanks!
14:45:45 <bexelbie> TY
14:45:53 <mattdm> anything else quick before we hear from sumantro?
14:45:54 <sumantro> #info We are having GSoC and Outreachy running smoothly, bcotton is a mentor and bexelbie and me are OAs. Going by the comments everyone is having a pleasant time there. :)
14:46:07 <bcotton> o/
14:46:08 <sumantro> sorry I hurried
14:46:10 <mattdm> sumantro wait let me change topics :)
14:46:13 <contyk> :))
14:46:13 <mattdm> #undo
14:46:13 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: INFO by sumantro at 14:45:54 : We are having GSoC and Outreachy running smoothly, bcotton is a mentor and bexelbie and me are OAs. Going by the comments everyone is having a pleasant time there. :)
14:46:18 <contyk> so, yeah
14:46:26 <contyk> I had two more minor things and an update on the f31 schedule
14:46:33 <contyk> but we can proceed to mindshare
14:46:34 <mattdm> quickly :)
14:46:39 <contyk> ack
14:46:40 <bcotton> contyk: do we have someone on FESCo driving the resolution of the modularity issue igor raised?
14:46:52 <smooge> mattdm, langdon contyk maybe this document helps discuss EPEL-8? https://hackmd.io/@ssmoogen/rysKDi01H
14:46:55 <contyk> that was one of them
14:47:12 <contyk> there are several ways to solve those problems but it boils down to two things
14:47:25 <contyk> 1. not enough documentation and "best practices" guidelines, the modularity team will work on that
14:47:50 <contyk> 2. thinking things through before packaging things that need parallel installation into separate streams
14:47:51 <langdon> re 1: which is part of the new objective doc...
14:47:58 <smooge> ooh sorry.. scroll failure
14:48:05 <contyk> we can help with resolving #2 through #1 and individual discussions
14:48:22 <contyk> langdon: +1
14:48:49 <langdon> smooge: i think we should jump back to that topic for a sec and #link that article.. i think it will definitely help others
14:49:00 <contyk> #info The Modularity team will provide better guidance to prevent the situations such as the one we had with libgit recently
14:49:12 <mattdm> good :)
14:49:15 <contyk> and that could be it, I'll hand it over to sumantro
14:49:20 <mattdm> contyk: thanks!
14:49:25 <mattdm> #topic Mindshare update
14:49:25 <langdon> mattdm: want to jump back topics?
14:49:34 <sumantro> #info We are having GSoC and Outreachy running smoothly, bcotton is a mentor and bexelbie and me are OAs. Going by the comments everyone is having a pleasant time there. :)
14:49:41 <langdon> at the end perhaps
14:49:50 <sumantro> #info 2. bexelbie wrote down a bunch of ideas to deal with fallouts of people-forgetting-to submit-event-reports
14:50:02 <langdon> sorry acronym expansion fail.. "OA"?
14:50:06 <sumantro> #info  3. We are still having event requests coming in and release party requests flowing in
14:50:06 <mattdm> (langdon: don't think there's time. mailing list discussion?)
14:50:12 <sumantro> Org Admin
14:50:17 <langdon> gotcha
14:50:47 <mattdm> sumantro: how are we on the "party a week" goal we set at the Council hackfest?
14:50:51 <langdon> i look forward to the one mattdm is planning for the boston rht office
14:51:10 <sumantro> bexelbie is helping out with swags and budget but there is an update on the shipping note and and its something to look out for
14:51:58 <sumantro> mattdm, we are closer to the goal but we lack a serious amount of activity as we need to sort out the amby program as soon as possible.
14:52:09 <mattdm> langdon: someone who doesn't have to take the Totally Broken Red Line to get there should propose that :)
14:52:35 <langdon> lol
14:52:37 <mattdm> sumantro: sorting out that program is probably more than an 8 minute discussion. but I'm definitely interested in that
14:52:59 <sumantro> Mindshare members have proposed workshop at Flock which should solve some of the problems
14:53:25 <sumantro> ^mattdm those are the problems we are looking at
14:53:48 <mattdm> sumantro: thanks. I'll look at the workshop -- hopefully it can have concrete output
14:53:54 <sumantro> https://pagure.io/flock/issue/159
14:54:03 <sumantro> https://pagure.io/flock/issue/136
14:54:14 <sumantro> these two are the ones :)
14:54:14 <mattdm> thanks
14:55:02 <sumantro> we will shortly be starting the Fedora 31 Classroom sessions and onboarding calls
14:55:28 <mattdm> Is that still being run mostly out of Fedora Join or is that directly Mindshare?
14:56:00 <sumantro> Join but then thats falls under Mindshare , and then me to present data :)
14:56:28 <mattdm> perfect :)
14:57:03 <sumantro> Fedora will apply for the upcoming Google Code In which it did last year and 2 of our winners with siddharthvipul is now attending the summit
14:57:59 <sumantro> that's all from my side .. any QnA? :)
14:58:51 <mattdm> Thanks sumantro!
14:59:01 <mattdm> I'll take a look at the Flock plans
14:59:14 <mattdm> I've got to run to my next meeting. Thanks everyone!
14:59:17 <mattdm> #endmeeting