15:00:18 <decathorpe> #startmeeting Stewardship SIG Meeting (2019-07-23)
15:00:18 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Jul 23 15:00:18 2019 UTC.
15:00:18 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
15:00:18 <zodbot> The chair is decathorpe. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:00:18 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:00:18 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'stewardship_sig_meeting_(2019-07-23)'
15:00:23 <mhroncok> decathorpe: hi
15:00:25 <decathorpe> #meetingname stewardship-sig
15:00:25 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'stewardship-sig'
15:00:31 <decathorpe> #chair mhroncok
15:00:31 <zodbot> Current chairs: decathorpe mhroncok
15:00:34 <decathorpe> hi :)
15:02:04 <mhroncok> decathorpe: JFYI https://churchyard.fedorapeople.org/orphans.txt is now generated ina  loop so should always be at most hours old
15:02:12 <decathorpe> great
15:02:24 <decathorpe> I updated the Agenda with the latest status a few hours ago
15:02:55 <mhroncok> (unfortunately it takes ~10 hours to genearte)
15:03:18 <decathorpe> wow  that's bad 😅️
15:03:37 <decathorpe> is that constant time or is it faster if there are fewer orphans?
15:03:47 <mhroncok> decathorpe: it depands on number of rohans
15:03:50 <mhroncok> orphans
15:03:58 <mhroncok> rohans? wtf
15:04:13 <decathorpe> so at least there's hope it will get faster over time
15:05:34 <decathorpe> by the way, there's now an up-to-date page with statistics of outdated packages
15:05:36 <decathorpe> https://decathorpe.fedorapeople.org/stewardship-sig-stats.html
15:06:08 <decathorpe> (some packages aren't tracked in anitya, and that's been broken for a few weeks anyway)
15:06:33 <mhroncok> do we have the energy to update the packages?
15:06:55 <decathorpe> I have boring holidays now, which is why I've been working on updates
15:07:01 <mhroncok> decathorpe: ok
15:07:03 <mhroncok> good luck
15:07:46 <decathorpe> thanks 😣️
15:08:00 <decathorpe> let's start. maybe someone else will show up later
15:08:05 <decathorpe> #topic Agenda
15:08:17 <decathorpe> #link https://pagure.io/stewardship-sig/issue/38 Agenda
15:09:18 <decathorpe> any preference what we should talk about first?
15:09:35 <mhroncok> I'd liek to talk about gradle
15:09:45 <mhroncok> that thing is totally broken
15:09:54 <decathorpe> yeah it's not looking good
15:10:15 <decathorpe> this is also disheartening: https://decathorpe.fedorapeople.org/stewardship-sig-stats.html#gradle-stats
15:10:35 <mhroncok> still a better story than zinc
15:10:55 <mhroncok> anyway, what exactly happens if we orhpan gradle and groovy?
15:11:14 <decathorpe> there's a few non-orphan packages that rely on gradle for building
15:11:31 <decathorpe> either they take gradle and fix it, or those will stop working
15:12:57 <decathorpe> I've looked at gradle, but I know if something's above my paygrade when I see it
15:13:04 <mhroncok> decathorpe: non-orphan but not ours, correct?
15:13:09 <decathorpe> correct
15:13:15 <decathorpe> gimme a second
15:13:24 <mhroncok> I guess we should offer gradle/groovy to them and orphan it otherwise
15:13:31 <decathorpe> that was my idea
15:13:36 <mhroncok> ok, let's do it
15:14:25 <decathorpe> so the packages built with gradle-local are:
15:14:35 <decathorpe> archaius (already broken)
15:14:57 <decathorpe> ecc-25519-java (quasi-orphan / gil)
15:15:10 <decathorpe> fernflower
15:15:30 <decathorpe> forbidden-apis
15:15:42 <decathorpe> gpars (ours, needed only for gradle and groovy)
15:15:44 <mhroncok> orphaned ecc-25519-java
15:15:59 <decathorpe> gradle (BRs itself)
15:16:17 <decathorpe> groovy (ours, outdated)
15:16:33 <decathorpe> hystrix
15:16:56 <decathorpe> mongo-java-driver (should probably be retired now mongo is gone?)
15:17:08 <decathorpe> openjfx
15:17:28 <decathorpe> procyon
15:17:45 <decathorpe> reactive-streams (quasi orphan / gil)
15:17:59 <decathorpe> rsyntaxtextarea
15:18:24 <decathorpe> spock (already broken, already orphaned)
15:18:25 <mhroncok> Orphaned reactive-streams
15:18:39 <decathorpe> sshj
15:18:44 <decathorpe> (gil)
15:19:05 <mhroncok> Orphaned sshj
15:19:10 <decathorpe> zkclient (already broken, gil)
15:19:31 <mhroncok> orphaned zkclient
15:19:46 <decathorpe> so, these are left: hystrix, mongo-java-driver, openjfx, procyon, rsyntaxtextarea
15:20:01 <mhroncok> fernflower, forbidden-apis...
15:20:06 <decathorpe> right
15:20:15 <decathorpe> 7 packages
15:20:19 <mhroncok> what needs groovy?
15:20:40 <decathorpe> stand by ... ...
15:21:12 <decathorpe> some more packages, most of them I recognise as already broken
15:21:25 <decathorpe> I can post a list to the ticket, it's too many to check live
15:22:03 <mhroncok> ok
15:22:52 <decathorpe> anything else gradle-related for now?
15:24:00 <mhroncok> decathorpe: not really, but unless we can safely drop groovy, we are probably stuck with it, right?
15:24:17 <decathorpe> I think so
15:24:48 <decathorpe> some packages already have bconds for groovy, and for others we can probably disable scripting functionality
15:25:14 <mhroncok> would you mind prioritizing that over updates?
15:25:24 <decathorpe> not at all
15:25:45 <decathorpe> I'm already checking if we can safely drop spring
15:25:55 <decathorpe> gradle/groovy would be the next task
15:26:38 <mhroncok> thanks
15:26:50 <mhroncok> I'm sory that i don't hav emore tiem to actually help you with that
15:27:07 <decathorpe> no need to apologize
15:27:33 <mhroncok> I wonder what the mass rebuild will uncover
15:27:42 <decathorpe> 😱️ right
15:28:21 <decathorpe> maybe some more people will realize in how bad a shape things are
15:29:50 <mhroncok> decathorpe: new required orphaned packages... ?
15:30:14 <decathorpe> erm .... newly orphaned packages that SIG packages depend on
15:30:34 <mhroncok> decathorpe: sure, let's review them?
15:30:54 <decathorpe> #topic Newly Orphaned Packages
15:31:17 <decathorpe> I'd like to postpone deciding on anything spring-related
15:31:29 <decathorpe> until after we've decided if we can drop spring or not
15:31:53 <cipherboy> \o Sorry, I'm around now. Was on PTO two weeks ago.
15:31:55 <mhroncok> google-oauth-java-client is also gradle related
15:32:07 <decathorpe> hi cipherboy
15:32:13 <decathorpe> #chair cipherboy
15:32:13 <zodbot> Current chairs: cipherboy decathorpe mhroncok
15:32:51 <decathorpe> well, there's no downside to taking packages now, and once we don't need them anymore, we can orphan them again
15:33:12 <mhroncok> it seems that everything listed is just 0-1 weeks old, we can defintivelly go trough them later
15:33:24 <decathorpe> absolutely
15:33:27 <cipherboy> Sure sounds good to me.
15:34:15 <decathorpe> but I think we'll definitely need: apache-common-vfs, lz4-java, mina-ftpserver, spock, testng
15:34:31 <mhroncok> decathorpe: OK, shall I rewuest them?
15:34:57 <decathorpe> if you want to
15:35:02 <mhroncok> I don't :D
15:35:06 <cipherboy> I need to schedule some time to put into the SIG again. I can try and review these new packages and what we require them for. Maybe we can drop a few dependencies.
15:35:08 <decathorpe> haha then I'll do it
15:35:10 <cipherboy> I can take them.
15:35:42 <decathorpe> good. just ping me in the ticket, so I can update my data
15:36:16 <mhroncok> decathorpe: anything else in the agenda to go trough? I don't feel like reviewing PRs now
15:36:26 <decathorpe> I understand completely :)
15:37:47 <decathorpe> cipherboy: do you think we can work on dropping some JBoss packages?
15:38:11 <decathorpe> dogtag-pki is pulling these in, but some of them only on fedora and not in EPEL
15:38:27 <cipherboy> decathorpe: Probably -- is that something DT requires? I think we never fully supported running on JBoss. We can take a look at that and see what breaks. :)
15:38:46 <decathorpe> that would be great. I think on EPEL it uses resteasy instead
15:38:54 <decathorpe> (which is why I've fixed resteasy)
15:39:23 <cipherboy> Ah, we should only need resteasy on Fedora / RHEL 8+. Let me check something quick...
15:39:51 <cipherboy> decathorpe: Yeah, I think we can drop a portion of those. Let me look at them more closely and I'll get back to you.
15:39:57 <decathorpe> great
15:40:16 <decathorpe> it would be great if you could comment there: https://www.pagure.io/stewardship-sig/issue/33
15:40:33 <cipherboy> ACK will do.
15:40:37 <decathorpe> +1
15:40:58 <decathorpe> just for completeness, is there any reason you can think of that would prevent us from dropping springframework support?
15:40:59 <cipherboy> Oh I don't actually get notifications when I'm @mentioned for some reason.
15:41:35 <cipherboy> Spring? Isn't that the GUI front end? The only thing I can think of is perhaps ESC (smart card management in Dogtag), but I'll talk to someone and see what that uses.
15:41:44 <decathorpe> great, thanks
15:41:56 <cipherboy> If Dogtag doesn't use it, then yeah, I'm all for dropping that :D
15:42:13 <decathorpe> I don't think it does
15:43:11 <cipherboy> Then yeah, I'm fine dropping that.
15:43:17 <decathorpe> do you know if we can patch jackson to not require groovy? I think it's only needed for tests
15:43:56 <cipherboy> I haven't looked at jackson much, I'll see if I get time to look at that.
15:44:20 <decathorpe> it's a prerequisite for dropping groovy/gradle
15:44:22 <decathorpe> https://www.pagure.io/stewardship-sig/issue/35
15:44:24 <decathorpe> thanks .)
15:47:23 <mhroncok> decathorpe: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/UNTGT65DKYADSJTPQUKTSTU2ERGGLFT6/
15:47:34 <decathorpe> yeah I saw
15:48:16 <decathorpe> once we own javapackages-tools, we can finally start *really* messing with things :P
15:48:45 <cipherboy> fwiw, we tried poking this internally and got nowhere, so...
15:49:47 <decathorpe> honestly I'm getting a bit tired of this. everybody expects these things to keep working, but nobody wants to spend time to keep it working
15:50:34 <cipherboy> And when it doesn't keep working, the people who are stuck with the side effects get the burden, not those that caused the problem..
15:50:56 <decathorpe> or, in this case, people just left
15:51:08 <cipherboy> That too.
15:51:27 <decathorpe> there's going to be about 500 more orphaned Java packages soon
15:51:57 <cipherboy> 500?!
15:52:10 <decathorpe> I'm also juggling two more non-responsive maintainer processes, which will increase that number further ;)
15:52:12 <cipherboy> What's getting removed from the ecosystem?
15:52:14 <mhroncok> https://pagure.io/releng/issue/8498
15:52:38 <cipherboy> Oh wow.
15:52:44 <cipherboy> Uhm.
15:53:01 <cipherboy> We might want to try standardizing how we maintain packages if we do need most of these.
15:53:05 <decathorpe> so effectively, the entire Java stack is getting orphaned in the next few weeks
15:53:12 <decathorpe> right
15:54:04 <cipherboy> I'll be sure to tell management. I'm working on critical stuff internally as well (on top of a move), so time might get tight.
15:54:14 <cipherboy> Doubt we can do much though.
15:54:32 <decathorpe> thanks
15:54:50 * cipherboy shrugs
15:54:54 <decathorpe> I'll be talking about this at flock as well.
15:55:03 <decathorpe> maybe I can make people realize that this is not sustainable
15:55:36 <mhroncok> decathorpe: you have a talk, or just want to talk to people?
15:55:58 <decathorpe> I have a talk
15:56:10 <decathorpe> https://pagure.io/flock/issue/208
15:56:52 <mhroncok> good
15:57:04 <decathorpe> I'll try to shame people into helping us as hard as I can 😂️
15:57:15 <mhroncok> not sure if shaming will help
15:57:16 <cipherboy> :D g'luck!
15:57:28 <decathorpe> mhroncok: I know. that was sarcasm ;)
15:57:34 <mhroncok> ok :D
15:59:39 <mhroncok> let's end?
15:59:45 <decathorpe> sure
15:59:50 <decathorpe> thanks guys
15:59:56 <cipherboy> Thanks!
16:00:13 <decathorpe> I'll update the gradle/groovy ticket with more impact data later today
16:01:09 <decathorpe> #endmeeting