14:00:02 <bcotton> #startmeeting Council (2019-09-04)
14:00:02 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Sep  4 14:00:02 2019 UTC.
14:00:02 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
14:00:02 <zodbot> The chair is bcotton. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:00:02 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:00:02 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2019-09-04)'
14:00:04 <bcotton> #meetingname council
14:00:04 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council'
14:00:12 <bcotton> #chair jonatoni bexelbie contyk dgilmore dperpeet langdon mattdm sumantrom tyll bcotton pbrobinson asamalik
14:00:12 <zodbot> Current chairs: asamalik bcotton bexelbie contyk dgilmore dperpeet jonatoni langdon mattdm pbrobinson sumantrom tyll
14:00:13 <bcotton> #topic Introductions, Welcomes
14:00:15 <contyk> .hello psabata
14:00:16 <zodbot> contyk: psabata 'Petr Šabata' <psabata@redhat.com>
14:00:34 <asamalik> .hello2
14:00:35 <zodbot> asamalik: asamalik 'Adam Samalik' <asamalik@redhat.com>
14:00:40 <mattdm> hi everyone!
14:00:41 <dperpeet> .hello2
14:00:43 <zodbot> dperpeet: dperpeet 'None' <dperpeet@redhat.com>
14:00:45 <asamalik> hello everyone!
14:01:12 <jonatoni> .hello2
14:01:14 <zodbot> jonatoni: jonatoni 'Jona Azizaj' <jonaazizaj@gmail.com>
14:01:23 <sgallagh> .hello2
14:01:24 <zodbot> sgallagh: sgallagh 'Stephen Gallagher' <sgallagh@redhat.com>
14:01:40 <sumantrom> .hello2
14:01:41 <zodbot> sumantrom: sumantrom 'Sumantro Mukherjee' <sumukher@redhat.com>
14:01:57 <langdon> .hello2
14:01:58 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <langdon@redhat.com>
14:02:06 <dgilmore> hi all
14:02:19 <bexelbie> .hello bex
14:02:20 <zodbot> bexelbie: bex 'Brian (bex) Exelbierd' <bexelbie@redhat.com>
14:02:24 <bcotton> good turnout today :-)
14:02:42 <mattdm> Yeah we should have the meeting today every week!
14:03:16 <asamalik> every Wednesday of a month!
14:03:16 <bcotton> mattdm++
14:03:45 <bcotton> #topic Today's agenda
14:03:47 <bcotton> 1. #268—Long-term funding request: translation platform hosting
14:03:48 <bcotton> 2. #267—Planning Hackfest 2019
14:03:53 <bcotton> 3. #254—Close out current modularity objective; Consider and potentially approve next phase
14:03:55 <bcotton> 4. #272—EPEL module stream names policies
14:03:56 <bcotton> 5. Open floor
14:03:57 <bexelbie> .hello bex
14:03:58 <zodbot> bexelbie: bex 'Brian (bex) Exelbierd' <bexelbie@redhat.com>
14:04:06 <bcotton> #topic Long term funding request: translation platform hosting
14:04:07 <bcotton> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/268
14:04:34 <bcotton> right now the vote is +5,0,-0 on this. so if you object, now's the time to say so
14:04:56 <contyk> +1
14:05:03 <dgilmore> I am still +1 for it
14:05:14 <asamalik> keeping my +1 from the ticket
14:05:16 <mattdm> The specific vote is:
14:05:20 <mattdm> "1) @jibecfed shoudl begin a cross-project discussion about Weblate; 2) 6000 EUR is allocated to be spent assuming the cross-project conversation goes well. Authorization is by FCAIC and will be sent back to council if something unexpected comes up."
14:06:16 <mattdm> so, yeah, let's mark this approved.
14:06:22 <bcotton> #agree Request is approved
14:06:38 <bcotton> #topic Planning Hackfest 2019
14:06:39 <bcotton> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/267
14:07:35 <mattdm> ok, so, based on feedback, let's do this the week of the 11th in Prague.
14:07:35 <bcotton> i've tried to interpret people's responses to the two proposed weeks into numbers, and by my interpretation, the week of 11/18 has a one vote lead. still waiting on votes from mattdm, tyll_, dgilmore, contyk, and dperpeet (unless i've missed them)
14:07:59 <dperpeet> bcotton, I voted before you sent this message! :D
14:08:01 <dperpeet> technically
14:08:04 <dgilmore> +1
14:08:09 <langdon> bcotton: wait.. which has a +1 lead?
14:08:14 <langdon> you have 11/18?
14:08:16 <contyk> alright, that works
14:08:17 <dperpeet> week of the 18th is better for me
14:08:24 <langdon> ohhh .. nov 18.. not 11 vs 18 :)
14:08:27 <contyk> both are fine
14:08:40 <sumantrom> week of 18th will be better for me
14:08:42 <dperpeet> sorry, just got back from vacation... catching up :)
14:08:51 <mattdm> I'm ok with either one. I have a slight preference for the earlier date because flights from boston are like _half_
14:08:59 <bcotton> jonatoni has a possible conference the week of the 11th
14:09:10 <dgilmore> bcotton: I can not do around November 30
14:09:11 <langdon> mattdm: i looked again when reading the ticket and it seemed less true now
14:09:13 <bcotton> but nobody has said that either of the options Definitely Will Not Work
14:09:19 <dgilmore> but before or after should be fine
14:09:33 <mattdm> langdon: ok that's good to know :)
14:09:40 <dgilmore> bcotton: pbrobinson I believe is out all of December
14:09:55 <bcotton> dgilmore: correct. we're looking at either week of nov 11 or week of nov 18
14:10:31 <dgilmore> I should be fine for either
14:10:50 <langdon> bcotton: if you could keep writing 11/18 to maximize confusion.. that would be best
14:11:00 <bcotton> langdon: can do ;-)
14:11:45 <contyk> we should do it during the holiday week
14:11:50 <contyk> everyone should be free then
14:11:52 <bcotton> jonatoni: do you know how soon you'll know if you're attending LAS
14:11:56 <bcotton> contyk++
14:12:17 <langdon> contyk: thanksgiving? sorry.. no.. any other holiday is fine.. but don't mess with my monster turkey cooking...
14:12:21 <contyk> spend the new year's eve together...
14:12:37 <dgilmore> contyk: that week is 100% out for me
14:12:42 <langdon> contyk: im down with that... ill have like 3 kids and a wife in tow though
14:12:43 <contyk> ;)
14:12:44 <jonatoni> bcotton: probably end of Sept I will know for sure :/
14:12:55 <bcotton> jonatoni: okay
14:13:21 <mattdm> I'd like a) jonatoni to be there and b) to know before the end of september
14:13:43 <mattdm> Which suggests the later date
14:13:46 <bcotton> so can we #agreed that the week of november 18 is the slightly-preferred week and assign a person to figure out location and agenda
14:13:59 <dgilmore> bcotton: sure
14:14:01 <bexelbie> I can take location (feels logical)
14:14:06 <bcotton> that way people can start booking flights, getting visas, etc
14:14:07 <mattdm> bexelbie: awesome thanks.
14:14:12 <mattdm> I will work on an agenda.
14:14:13 <langdon> bcotton: by "location" you mean more refined than prague? or prague is up in the air?
14:14:17 <bexelbie> cool
14:14:19 <bcotton> langdon: i mean where in prague
14:14:20 <mattdm> Prague.
14:14:22 <sumantrom> bexelbie, thanks :)
14:14:23 <mattdm> Specific location.
14:14:24 <langdon> gotcha.. ok
14:14:26 <dgilmore> I may be out entirely depending on work load as I have a major deliverable due in December
14:14:26 <bexelbie> langdon, meaning a specific coordinate in Prague
14:14:32 <bexelbie> top of the crawling baby tower maybe
14:14:42 <langdon> bexelbie: crrrreeeeeeeeppppppyyyyy
14:14:47 <bexelbie> I will check to see if the offices there have meeting space
14:14:55 <bexelbie> since they are not Brno - we shouldn't get as many interruptions
14:15:00 <bexelbie> and that opens up lodging a bit
14:15:03 <bcotton> #agreed We have a weakly-preferred preference for the week of 18 November
14:15:12 <langdon> but if we could incorporate a ride on the funicular every day.. i would like that
14:15:16 <bexelbie> also, there is a cute place about 2.5 hours east of Prague ... Prague East if you will ...
14:15:17 <bcotton> yes, that's bad english. no, i don't care
14:15:31 <bexelbie> bcotton, I am taking 18 as solid though
14:15:36 <bcotton> #action bexelbie to determine a location in Prague
14:15:43 <bexelbie> if that will change we need to define the specific requrieemnts for change
14:15:50 <bexelbie> I need to lock down other thigns than just our contract around it
14:15:51 <mattdm> yes.
14:15:52 <langdon> is that "go buy plane flights"? or not yet?
14:15:53 <dgilmore> or Prague East
14:16:07 <bexelbie> we will do Prague, not Vienna North, regretabbly
14:16:07 <contyk> there are many cute places
14:16:13 <bcotton> #action mattdm to determine agenda (or at least specific days for meeting)
14:16:18 <contyk> I was thinking Břeclav
14:16:22 <bcotton> langdon: i'd wait until mattdm tells us how many days we're meeting
14:16:37 <langdon> gotcha..
14:16:53 <bexelbie> contyk, I used to be registered there .. fun "scared of English Bureacrat" times
14:17:09 <bcotton> so i think we're good on this for now?
14:17:11 <mattdm> I'm thinking basic structure same as last time. That worked well.
14:17:25 <dgilmore> mattdm: indeed
14:18:18 <bcotton> #topic Close out current modularity objective. Consider and potentially approve next phase.
14:18:19 <bcotton> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/254
14:18:21 <bcotton> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/council-docs/pull-request/61
14:18:34 <langdon> i need to do some updates from flock..
14:18:48 <langdon> my production since flock has been very slow.. will have this done by next meeting
14:19:19 <contyk> langdon: should we meet and discuss it [again]?
14:19:26 <contyk> maybe in a more productive manner
14:19:40 <mattdm> yes please :)
14:19:45 <bcotton> langdon: are you planning on remaining the modularity lead or are you handing that over? istr some discussion around that, but i don't remember specifics or if a decision has been reached
14:19:49 <langdon> contyk: i tihnk i just need to write up my notes
14:19:59 <langdon> bcotton: im going to stay the lead
14:20:09 <langdon> but contyk and i will be pretty close on it
14:20:43 <contyk> langdon: I went through the factory2 backlog last week, so that could influence it a bit
14:20:45 <langdon> i have been buried in devconf stats.. and i am just slow lately
14:20:49 <mattdm> One thing that came up is the conversation with terry et al. We need to have clear rules for modularity in Feodra
14:21:12 <langdon> contyk: ok.. let me write what i know and then we can discuss on fridya? during our normal time?
14:21:17 <bcotton> langdon: do you think you could have it done by the end of next week so we have time to read and comment before the next council meeting?
14:21:21 <mattdm> Like, there's lots of things that are possible. At this point we should define the shoulds, mays, and can'ts.
14:21:23 <contyk> langdon: sure
14:21:27 <bcotton> mattdm++
14:21:30 <langdon> mattdm: uhh.. you need to elaborate on that ... we have lots of rules..
14:21:45 <langdon> bcotton: yeah.. i can commit to that
14:22:01 <bcotton> #action langdon to update renewed modularity proposal by 13 September
14:22:26 <langdon> mattdm: i think what terry was really talking about is more like "best practices".. which are in progress and in the obj (well, the thing im going to write)
14:22:26 <bexelbie> langdon, we need to either be explicit that we use the RHEL definitions for modularity (upgrades, streams, etc.) and what those are -- or we need to define the Fedora version and what that means
14:22:36 <bcotton> has this gone out to devel at all? seems like we'll want the community to weigh in
14:22:38 <bexelbie> I am thinking of the issues raised around rust modules and upgrades to libraries by Igor
14:22:47 <langdon> bexelbie: rhel actually uses the fedora ones .. as much as i am aware
14:23:05 <bexelbie> given that we had confusion from Fedora - that sounds ... different than my lived experience
14:23:12 <langdon> bcotton: "this"? the obj? no.. probably should
14:23:21 <bcotton> langdon: yeah, the objective proposal
14:24:15 <langdon> bexelbie: the confusion was in fedora, where it belongs, in a sense, while the answer was developed.. the issue that came up in fedora hasn't come up in rhel yet.. but rhel should/will follow the determination
14:24:16 <bcotton> i guess one question is "does our policy change policy apply to objective proposals?" iow, do we have the minimum comment period, etc? i'd think it should apply, even if the policy doesn't explicitly say that
14:24:45 <langdon> bcotton: i know of no good process for objective "vetting" by the community...
14:24:54 <langdon> an established one might make sense
14:25:25 <bexelbie> langdon, it isn't clear to me we ever got an answer in Fedora and if we did, was it documented
14:26:00 <langdon> bexelbie: i think the "docs" are what is lacking .. and.. even where they aren't the publicity of those docs is very low
14:26:30 <bexelbie> langdon, I'd like to see this proposal define solving this - including reiterating our policies, PRD style, if needed
14:26:42 <bexelbie> how does this interface with FESCo or FPC in terms of policy, etc.
14:27:02 <langdon> bexelbie: hahahaha.. yes.. that is all nicely documented..
14:27:03 <bexelbie> we can't just focus on technical or usability for packagers
14:27:18 <bexelbie> policy fixing feels objective worthy
14:27:26 <bexelbie> pushing innovation does too
14:27:38 <bexelbie> clean up is important, but may not need objective status, just thank yous and work
14:28:45 <mattdm> langdon: that _is_ nicely documented now?
14:29:25 <langdon> mattdm: which? fesco vs fpc etc? yes
14:30:15 <langdon> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Modularity_Team
14:30:59 <langdon> we also had some really nice policy docs.. which someone decided were too detailed so they deleted massive parts of the middle.. i think those are still in the wiki
14:31:50 <langdon> actually now all in docs: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/modularity/making-modules/packaging-guidelines/
14:31:55 <asamalik> are we using the wiki still?
14:32:13 <langdon> just some of the org stuff for modularity is there..
14:32:25 <langdon> i didn't see that you had moved the packaging guidelines over
14:32:29 <langdon> they are much better now :)
14:32:31 <mattdm> Ok. I don't want to get stuck in a hole on this. Bex, can you look at that and maybe describe what you feel is missing that is causing the problem with people actually trying to use the stuff in Fedora?
14:32:40 <langdon> actually.. i think i had seen it but forgot
14:32:42 <contyk> I think it needs to be rewritten again to reflect our experiences over the years and to make it easy to consume
14:33:01 <mattdm> contyk: that sounds like a good thing
14:33:01 <bexelbie> sure but I'd prefer to see ngompa and ignatenkobrain look at it and reply too
14:33:06 <langdon> it just needs a rewrite every ~6 months probably
14:33:15 <langdon> bexelbie: me too
14:33:22 <mattdm> that's why we have FPC doing basically that constantly
14:33:52 <bcotton> okay, so langdon will finish filling in the details by next friday, at which point we will put it on commblog and start the timer for community feedback
14:34:07 <bexelbie> on first glance I see nothing about the rules for updating modules in a release - ala the rust library issue
14:34:50 <bcotton> let's move on for now. if we have time at the end, we can revisit or just move the conversation to #fedora-council
14:35:29 <bcotton> #topic EPEL module stream names policies
14:35:31 <bcotton> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/272
14:35:47 <bcotton> contyk, sgallagh, take it away
14:35:50 <sgallagh> I tried to summarize the question in the ticket
14:36:06 <sgallagh> contyk: correct me if I misrepresented anything
14:36:14 * contyk looks
14:36:57 <contyk> yes, it's good
14:37:20 <contyk> I'm mostly curious about mattdm'd reasons for namespacing, besides making it obvious that you're using EPEL content
14:37:26 <contyk> which we don't even have for packages
14:39:15 <mattdm> I think there's some form of the telephone game going on here :)
14:39:41 <mattdm> let me talk to sgallagh about this in person tomorrow
14:39:44 <bexelbie> I feel like this game should be mattdm sgallagh and contyk in an irc channel ... #fedora-modularity maybe?
14:40:09 <mattdm> possibly. I just happen to have lunch planned with Stephen tomorrow :)
14:40:22 <sgallagh> That’s okay with me
14:40:22 <mattdm> not meaning to exclude contyk but it's a little far to travel for lunch
14:40:32 <bcotton> depends on how good the lunch is
14:40:59 <langdon> i hear paris is a common lunch destination
14:41:01 <contyk> could you then post it in the ticket at bexelbie is suggesting?
14:41:11 <contyk> to make it clear to everyone
14:41:18 <langdon> and .. bcotton... trust me.. there is no meal in westford worth traveling from boston for... much less cz
14:41:33 <sgallagh> Yes, we will make sure the ticket is updated after we talk
14:41:41 <mattdm> contyk: yes, and also possible include you in a conversation if needed
14:41:50 <bcotton> there's still the open question of whether this is a council matter at all
14:41:54 <mattdm> tbh it's been, like, two years since I really thought about this
14:41:55 * langdon wonders if he should take the  plunge and go to westford tomorrow..
14:41:57 <sgallagh> langdon: Have we taken you to Seoul Kitchen?
14:42:52 <mattdm> lunch plans in #fedora-offtopic please :)
14:42:55 <contyk> just keep in mind namespacing would add significant burden and wouldn't make contributing to EPEL easier :)
14:42:58 <sgallagh> Ack
14:43:10 <langdon> bcotton: if the request is from the FPL it is a council matter to make the request of the appropriate team.. if the council doesn't understand what the fpl is asking for.. you need a council ticket to resolve it.. if that "thing the fpl wantS" is understood.. then a fesco or whatever ticket can be made
14:44:15 <bcotton> i disagree, but i don't care enough to type out why :-)
14:44:34 <bcotton> but it sounds like we're done until after the Great Westford Lunch happens tomorrow anyway
14:44:45 <langdon> bcotton: lol
14:44:57 <bcotton> #topic Open floor
14:45:02 <langdon> i am not sure i should have cared enough to type my explanation
14:45:06 <bcotton> so i have a thing
14:45:14 <bcotton> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/273
14:45:36 <bcotton> Sounds like kevin isn't asking for a vote so much as reassurance we won't pull the rug out from underneath him
14:45:52 <bcotton> so unless anyone objects, i'll just tell him "go ahead"
14:46:09 <mattdm> bcotton: +1
14:46:33 <langdon> what about bexelbie's q?
14:47:15 <contyk> bcotton: +1
14:47:22 <mattdm> https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/commits/master
14:47:38 <mattdm> there seem to be a reasonable number of recent non-CPE commits
14:48:40 <bexelbie> that satisfies me
14:48:54 <bcotton> anything else for open floor?
14:49:31 <mattdm> thanks for running the meeting, bcotton!
14:50:34 * bcotton bangs gavel
14:50:41 <bcotton> thanks everyone! see you in two weeks
14:50:48 <bcotton> #endmeeting