14:00:02 #startmeeting Council (2019-09-18) 14:00:02 Meeting started Wed Sep 18 14:00:02 2019 UTC. 14:00:02 This meeting is logged and archived in a public location. 14:00:02 The chair is bcotton. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 14:00:02 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 14:00:02 The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2019-09-18)' 14:00:03 #meetingname council 14:00:03 The meeting name has been set to 'council' 14:00:08 Good morning! 14:00:14 mattdm_: hellooo 14:00:21 ugh why am i underscored? 14:00:23 #chair jonatoni bexelbie contyk dgilmore dperpeet langdon mattdm sumantrom tyll bcotton pbrobinson asamalik 14:00:23 Current chairs: asamalik bcotton bexelbie contyk dgilmore dperpeet jonatoni langdon mattdm pbrobinson sumantrom tyll 14:00:29 mattdm_: because you're so important 14:00:40 hola 14:00:43 #chair mattdm_ 14:00:43 Current chairs: asamalik bcotton bexelbie contyk dgilmore dperpeet jonatoni langdon mattdm mattdm_ pbrobinson sumantrom tyll 14:00:45 "Cannot change nickname while banned/quieted on channel" 14:00:49 morning, dgilmore 14:00:51 .hello2 14:00:52 jonatoni: jonatoni 'Jona Azizaj' 14:01:00 hi jonatoni 14:01:39 .hello2 14:01:40 langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' 14:01:43 fixed 14:01:47 hi, langdon 14:01:48 irc sucks, y'all 14:02:05 could the real mattdm please stand up? 14:02:15 i guess not 14:02:22 yes. yes i can 14:02:22 * langdon updating PR 14:02:23 #topic Introductions, Welcomes 14:02:27 .hello psabata 14:02:28 contyk: psabata 'Petr Šabata' 14:02:30 we've already started this, but 14:02:42 good afternoon contyk 14:02:52 good morning 14:02:54 contyk: are you napping again? 14:03:08 not yet 14:03:37 those three minutes between the meetings didn't give me enough time 14:03:50 contyk: ha.. you should try harder 14:03:53 contyk: i believe in you 14:04:03 i should really try to move from the cafe to my desk.. but also haven't had time 14:04:13 and the snacks are tempting 14:04:30 is bexelbie around? 14:05:43 maybe on pto? 14:05:49 is that allowed? 14:06:07 #topic Planning Hackfest 2019 14:06:08 #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/267 14:06:25 mattdm: i assume we're blocked on bex finalizing dates with a venue? 14:06:26 I think the status here is "Waiting for Bex to narrow down exact dates and venue" 14:06:29 Yes. 14:06:32 Yes, that. 14:06:32 .hello2 14:06:33 asamalik: asamalik 'Adam Samalik' 14:06:59 But everyone should plan to be in Prague around the week of November 18th 14:07:05 #info Blocked on bex finalizing exact dates and venue 14:07:11 Possibly the 11th if there's trouble with the location-finding 14:07:12 absolutely everyone 14:07:28 Everyone on the council. 14:07:32 Not necessarily in the universe. 14:07:37 mattdm: well.. the expensive, least flexible part, is the flights.. so i can "plan" all you want but what does that mean? 14:08:05 langdon: fly to prague for two weeks so you'll be ready whenever 14:08:14 don't, like, book other things? 14:08:19 bcotton: hey.. if somoene else is paying.. im happy to :) 14:08:26 * dgilmore has been wondering what dates 14:08:37 mattdm: ok.. if that's all.. i don't have anywhere else to go anyway :) 14:08:39 but in seriousness, oil prices are on an upward trend, so i'll lean on bex to get this set so we can let people start buying tickets 14:08:57 bcotton++ 14:09:14 anything else we want to discuss here? i'm not sure there's much else to say at this point 14:09:18 we really need those electric planes 14:09:50 i would prefer teleportation 14:10:25 yeah moving on :) 14:10:29 langdon: and maybe it would be even you on the other end :P 14:10:37 hopefully not 14:10:38 #topic Close out current modularity objective. Consider and potentially approve next phase. 14:10:39 #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/254 14:10:40 #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/council-docs/pull-request/61 14:10:49 so langdon has updated the PR 14:11:11 as of ten minutes ago :) 14:11:20 contyk: harsh 14:11:25 i wasn't going to throw him under the bus like that 14:11:31 ha 14:11:46 i had the content for like 2 weeks and just kept forgetting to put it in the PR.. 14:11:58 contyk: does that jive with what we talked about? 14:12:13 so, I haven't actually read it yet, and I'm going to blame it on that :) 14:12:19 uh huh 14:12:35 speaking of two weeks, the next step is to give the community 2 weeks to discuss (assuming we treat it according to the policy change policy) and then vote on it 14:12:43 can you summarize what's new? 14:12:51 (see also: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/council/policy/policy-change-policy/) 14:13:33 mattdm: whats new with what? 14:13:37 I think that's a good approach. Ben, maybe post to devel announce like a change, in this particular case? 14:13:45 langdon: what you updated in the PR? 14:13:55 I *did* read the previous version. 14:13:57 langdon: what you plan to do new in the next 18 months 14:14:35 ohh.. it is all the deliverables.. it *is* a summary so it would be me just retyping it here 14:15:29 start at line 23: https://pagure.io/fork/langdon/Fedora-Council/council-docs/blob/2890194ffcdd790cc95ffc3716c882c5091ea76c/f/project/modules/ROOT/pages/objectives/objective-modularity-f30-f33.adoc 14:15:39 to 48 14:15:57 ok :) 14:16:35 bcotton: want to post this to devel-announce, or should langdon do it? 14:16:46 langdon: one question i had in skimming this is do you have a plan for what will be accomplished at each of the hackfests (like a one-sentence version, not super detailed obviously) or are you just planning that you'll work on whatever's important at the time? 14:16:51 mattdm: i'll do it 14:17:15 i'm going to post it to commblog first, then share that to devel 14:17:33 bcotton++ 14:18:18 bcotton: it is more the latter.. and/or like planning for next phase.. so like at flock we worked out what we would do for f32/33 .. 14:18:32 okay, wfm 14:18:33 actually .. now that you ask that.. i wonder if i could write in a general description 14:18:40 and x-ref it 14:18:46 let me try that 14:18:53 ok 14:18:57 * langdon couldn't think of a better way to handle it before 14:19:23 FWIW, I like the "let's finish this up and solve problems users are hitting" approach. It's good to focus on that some of the time and we don't do it enough. 14:19:33 #action bcotton to post proposal to CommBlog and devel list 14:19:57 are we #agreed that we'll start voting on 2 October? 14:20:10 yes this feels like it's going to solve all the major pain points people are complaining about 14:20:28 then we can find new things to complain about :-D 14:20:41 ursa prime being one of the biggest one for me 14:20:52 bcotton: that's called progress :D 14:21:04 yes. agreeed. 14:21:41 #agreed that we'll start voting on 2 October? 14:21:47 +1 14:21:49 anything else on this topic? 14:22:53 bcotton: does tihs do a good job of describing the hackfest? https://paste.fedoraproject.org/paste/81Cf34M~-Gw7hkLqFDnxfQ 14:22:58 contyk: ^^ 14:23:22 wfm 14:23:24 weird hard returns for the sake of adoc.. not lots of paragraphs 14:23:28 wfm 14:23:36 #topic EPEL module stream names policies 14:23:37 #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/272 14:24:00 so this was of questionable council relevance, but mattdm allegedly had opinions™ that he was trying to remember, so we punted it 14:24:54 Yeah, so, I talked to sgallagh 14:25:17 and I'm 95% sure that this request came in before we even had the idea that modules would have their own namespaces 14:25:46 My remaining concern is: remember, we'll be sharing dist-git with CentOS. So we need policy so that those things don't step on each other. 14:25:51 I don't care beyond that. 14:25:58 I can put this in the ticket :) 14:27:13 (did so. and closed.) 14:27:21 hooray! 14:27:38 #topic Open floor 14:27:51 I have something! 14:28:09 I have three things! 14:28:28 1. Status dashboard -- getting people to do it 14:28:39 2. Websites team, lack thereof 14:28:46 the Minimization Objective has been approved for the fist phase, ending at the end of September, so I believe I should somehow demonstrate progress, plan for the next phase, and get an approval for it? 14:29:03 3. Consider acting replacement for Till 14:29:19 0. Minimization Objective next steps :) 14:29:24 :) 14:29:51 not really what they are (at least not now), but rather when 14:29:51 wow, that's a lot of somethings 14:29:59 let's start with asamalik 14:30:06 #topic Minimization Objective next steps 14:32:17 so .... if i'm reading mattdm's mind correctly, we initially approved minimization on a short-term basis 14:32:23 I think I said all I needed to say myself 14:32:57 asamalik: ah yes, i lost it in mattdm's agenda dump :-) 14:33:00 so what about I have a proposal ready for the next meeting? 14:33:01 that seems to match my mind. because it was an exploratory thing. and that's not always been a successful approach :) 14:33:27 so yeah, i'd say what asamalik said is the right thing. basically as soon as it's ready i'll do the same thing i'm doing for modularity 14:33:31 mattdm: yep, it's been a mix of exploration, doing, and experimenting 14:33:43 (posting to places and then putting a vote on the calendar) 14:33:51 * langdon thinks he dropped a bunch of messages on the floor 14:34:10 bcotton: that makes sense 14:34:13 langdon: if you pick them up within 5 seconds they're still safe to read 14:34:20 The current objective says "Published blog posts (and maybe videos) about the process, about what is possible, and about our intentions. " 14:34:31 #info the Minimization Objective has been approved for the fist phase, ending at the end of September 14:34:54 bcotton: i have kids.. 5 minutes 14:35:04 #action asamalik to draft an updated proposal that demonstrates progress and plans for the next phase 14:35:08 mattdm: yep, not many of those, but also things that have not been listed have been done 14:35:30 bcotton: +1 ack 14:35:30 So, maybe a blog post summarizing what did get achieved? 14:35:50 That would then also oroboros-style solve the problem of not having blog posts :) 14:36:06 yep, two or three are on the plan already :) 14:37:04 all right, I know what to do next and how we approach approving the next phase 14:37:14 that's basically what I wanted :) 14:37:17 awesome 14:37:36 okay next 14:37:47 #topic Status dashboard -- getting people to do it 14:37:48 Okay, so, yeah, 1) write the blog posts and 2) update future phases 14:37:58 bcotton, do you have a shame list? 14:38:11 * contyk is on it 14:38:12 #link https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/dashboard/ 14:38:27 "on it", like "i'm doing it now", or "on the shame list"? 14:38:34 have there been any updates? 14:38:37 mattdm: not handy, but i can pull one together if you can stall for a moment 14:38:47 on the shame list; I haven't updated it in two weeks as there wasn't much new 14:38:52 langdon: not from you! :) 14:39:11 I have stolen the Minimization part and I'm using it in our docs space: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/minimization/status/ 14:39:17 yeah.. i went and looked at it a couple weeks ago and couldn't find anyone else doing it for examples.. did it move? 14:39:23 asamalik: I have an anatora question. Do you know if there's some way to include a macro which expands to the commit date? 14:39:29 it's the same file 14:39:30 Or the build date? Or anything like that? 14:39:51 #info The following people have never updated: sumantrom (Mindshare), dperpeet (CI), pbrobinson (IoT) 14:39:54 build date you definitely don't want 14:40:04 #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/status_reports/blob/master/f/modules/dashboard/pages 14:40:04 mattdm: I don't think there is... but I see what you want here — an indicator of how outdated that info is, right? 14:40:11 asamalik: yes, exactly 14:40:31 Ideally with spiderwebs for very old information, but that's a nice to have. an automatic timestamp. 14:40:44 We can of course make that part of the manual template, but it's one of thoes things that's nice to have automatically 14:40:53 I can make an upstream request if nothing like that exists. 14:40:53 #info The following are more than a month old: Silverblue (tpopela) 14:41:06 the others are within the last month (although some just barely) 14:41:07 I was thinking about the very same thing... "write a date down and change it every time you update it" is probably not the ideal answer? (although it would work now!) 14:41:33 asamalik: are there general ways to include variables and high-level template information? Like, in the wiki, we have {{currentrelease} and that's used A LOT 14:41:34 asamalik: yeah, i added "update date: " to all the files yesterday to make mattdm happy, but a more automatic way would be nice 14:42:04 bcotton: oh you did! cool 14:42:23 mattdm: I believe so, yes, would have to check 14:42:25 None of the people who have never updated are here. except langdon :) 14:42:28 mattdm: did you want to discuss this beyond just #info ing a shame list? 14:42:29 mattdm: asking upstream would be ideal 14:42:46 bcotton: well, we need to figure out what to do if we can't get people to do the thing 14:42:54 are there macros in general? 14:43:15 asamalik: let's take this somewhere else, but yeah, if there are general macros in some way can you point me to the docs for that? couldn't find it myself 14:43:16 langdon: the same answer, I believe so 14:43:19 (on antora site) 14:43:22 mattdm: better question: do you want to try to do that now or do you want to do it later and hit your other two agenda items? 14:43:41 bcotton: later i guess. but BE WARNED 14:44:29 mattdm: do you want to go to websites or till next? 14:44:32 i'm not sure we'll get to both 14:44:48 I'll explore that and ping mattdm 14:45:38 bcotton: I'll do websites in 1 minutes. Then the absent council member thing 14:45:42 ok 14:45:45 #topic Websites team (or lack thereof) 14:45:55 :( 14:46:01 makes me sad 14:46:14 Here's the short version: Since robyduck got a new job (good for robyduck!) there hasn't been much of a websites team. 14:46:27 it is good for robyduck 14:46:31 robyduck++ 14:46:31 dgilmore: Karma for robyduck changed to 1 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 14:46:47 CPE (Formerly Fedora Infrastructure) picked up the slack, but this timing has coincided with that team re-focusing their mission much more narrowly 14:46:52 and explicitly excluding websites 14:47:19 I understand the reasons for this but it's left us in a bad place. 14:47:35 For example, the spins and labs pages were not updated for the beta release 14:47:54 And the parts that were updated were done by stickster which is definitely not part of *his* job 14:48:21 So we need to figure out how to rebuild that team, and help to do so is not coming from Red Hat, at least in the near term. 14:48:39 Okay that's my minute. More happening on that outside the meeting. 14:49:05 #link https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/websites/ 14:49:07 mattdm: like you have other avenues in pursuit? or things that others could participate in? 14:49:11 ^ docs for what's needed to get started 14:49:17 which reminds me that I promised to do search for the Docs and haven't got time to do so yet, which I'm sorry for... :( 14:49:28 langdon: I'm talking to OSPO 14:49:37 gotcha.. 14:49:44 If you have any university-connection ideas I'd love to hear them 14:49:58 just a related q.. do we have enough time/help from the design team? or are we strapped there for websites too? 14:50:06 mattdm: i may.. thats why im asking 14:50:19 _somewhat_ better 14:50:23 (design, I mean) 14:50:50 ok... im more likely to find a html/js/css code slinger than a visual designer.. thats why i ask 14:51:18 Needs to work with the Flask framework, too. 14:51:43 Some design skills useful, but we basically need someone to be able to do basic updates to the structure and content as needed 14:51:48 thats easy though 14:51:52 not generate content, but know how to put it in place 14:51:54 flask i meant... 14:52:07 it is easy, but we don't have anyone who owns it 14:52:13 and there's of course potential to do more. 14:52:20 I think I saw an email about someone looking for student projects... let me dig it up, because that might be one way forward 14:52:30 I think it was docs-related, but maybe they can stretch it a bit 14:52:48 Concrete example: now we have an iot edition. The site needs to be updated to reflect that. 14:53:29 can we have easyfix issues on github and have people do that as part of the hacktoberfest? 14:53:50 asamalik: no because it's not on github :-) 14:54:05 also, i think it's more that we need a consistent owner rather than one-off tasks 14:54:07 but 14:54:12 can we move it/mirror it there? 14:54:14 what's the #action here? 14:54:40 none currently. wanted to escalate awareness. 14:54:46 ok 14:54:54 maybe someone falls in love with that :) but yeah I know what you mean, just trying to find ideas 14:54:58 in our last 5 minutes let's hit mattdm's last topic 14:55:08 #topic Consider acting replacement for absent Council member 14:55:39 So, Till has a medical situation which prevents him from really using computers. 14:55:51 It's been a long road to recovery. :( 14:56:10 So for one thing sending him good wishes for that would be nice. 14:56:20 yeah.. no lie.. that sucks 14:56:36 fedora should send a fruit basket 14:56:40 I'm really sorry to hear that 14:56:43 But also, since the council is intentionally small, having one of our community representatives not able to participate is not good 14:57:07 langdon: that's not a bad idea. 14:57:26 But we should consider a policy for appointing a temporary replacement. 14:57:53 so there were no other candidates when till was elected last time 14:57:54 Either open the seat in the next election or council tap someone 14:58:02 I was just going to ask 14:58:17 Also, when we have so few candidates typically, picking the runner up isn't necessarily the right thing to do 14:58:20 i'd say the council should appoint someone, either on an interim basis or to fill his seat until the next cycle 14:58:44 i'd rather not wait until january to fill the seat 14:58:50 should till be involved in who is "tapped"? 14:59:12 langdon: sure, that makes sense 14:59:19 I think bookwar told me she was going to run next time 14:59:26 so maybe it wouldn't hurt asking her 14:59:35 contyk: thanks! 14:59:47 #action mattdm to talk to till about this 14:59:56 also possibly bookwar 15:00:06 and now we're at time 15:00:32 don't need to answer now, but if we get bookwar to do it, would we ask her to give up her fesco seat? something to think about 15:00:51 i would say "no" as it is appointed 15:00:51 anyway, yes, it is now the top of the hour 15:00:59 if she ran in the next cycle, yes 15:01:02 yeah I gotta go. thanks everyone! 15:01:03 no it's not, it's the elected sit filled by appointment 15:01:11 #endmeeting