15:01:28 <asamalik> #startmeeting Minimization Team Meeting
15:01:28 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Sep 18 15:01:28 2019 UTC.
15:01:28 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
15:01:28 <zodbot> The chair is asamalik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:01:28 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:01:28 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'minimization_team_meeting'
15:01:28 <asamalik> #meetingname minimization
15:01:28 <asamalik> #chair asamalik pbrobinson zbyszek feborges Son_Goku lorbus salimma tdawson ignatenkobrain jaruga
15:01:28 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'minimization'
15:01:28 <zodbot> Current chairs: Son_Goku asamalik feborges ignatenkobrain jaruga lorbus pbrobinson salimma tdawson zbyszek
15:01:28 <asamalik> #topic Roll call
15:02:18 <tdawson> .hello
15:02:18 <zodbot> tdawson: (hello <an alias, 1 argument>) -- Alias for "hellomynameis $1".
15:02:27 <tdawson> .hello1
15:02:32 <tdawson> .hello2
15:02:32 <zodbot> tdawson: tdawson 'None' <tdawson@redhat.com>
15:02:44 <asamalik> all those hellos!
15:02:48 <tdawson> Anyway ... I'm here. :)
15:03:42 <jaruga> .hello
15:03:42 <zodbot> jaruga: (hello <an alias, 1 argument>) -- Alias for "hellomynameis $1".
15:04:01 <jaruga> .hello3
15:04:23 <asamalik> :)
15:06:05 <asamalik> #topic === Admin ===
15:06:09 <asamalik> Anything to discuss about organisational stuff?
15:06:43 <tdawson> do we have a way to add things to the agenda (not now, but sometime during the week) ?
15:07:15 <jaruga> Sorry no I do not have it.
15:07:17 <asamalik> tdawson: so I created a "Meeting" label in the tracker, thinking that we could tag issues to discuss here with it
15:07:27 <asamalik> so let's use that?
15:07:45 <tdawson> Sounds good.
15:08:19 <asamalik> #info To add topics to the agenda, tag an issue with the Meeting label in the Pagure tracker (https://pagure.io/minimization/issues)
15:08:56 <asamalik> which I believed I did with the sysusers issue
15:09:19 <asamalik> Metadata Update from @tdawson:
15:09:19 <asamalik> - Issue untagged with: Meeting
15:09:53 <asamalik> tdawson: did you remove that intentionally or did Pagure decided not to cooperate?
15:10:08 <tdawson> No, I didn't know it was removed.
15:10:31 <tdawson> I actually asked the question, so that it would show up on the meeting notes, so people would know how to add agenda items.
15:10:41 <asamalik> heh, that's weird
15:11:06 <asamalik> yeah thanks for asking that!
15:11:40 <asamalik> I tagged it back and let's discuss it
15:11:51 <asamalik> #topic #13 systemd-sysusers versus containers
15:11:56 <asamalik> #link https://pagure.io/minimization/issue/13
15:12:52 <tdawson> Sure thing
15:13:06 <tdawson> Although people could look at the issue, I'm going to summarize.
15:13:42 <tdawson> using systemd-sysuser is starting to gain tracktion, though it is currently not "recommended" yet.
15:13:54 <tdawson> This is for adding system users, users you would use for a service.
15:14:22 <tdawson> The problem is that it pulls in systemd, which can add up to 60M to a container (it varies based on what other packages your main package pulls in)
15:15:10 <tdawson> It was suggested to pull systemd-sysuser out of systemd, make it a sub-package that is installed by itself
15:15:52 <tdawson> I've been trying various levels of that for the past couple days, and my conclusion is that just isn't going to work unless there is some actual code changes, or functionality changes.
15:16:16 <asamalik> I can see it as a no problem on traditional systems where systemd already is, but yes, in containers, pulling 60 MB to create a user seems like an overkill :)
15:16:57 <tdawson> Another idea, that has came up in fedora-devel email, is making some type of "systemd-container-stub" ... basically something that says it's systemd, and might even have some functionality (like adding users) but doesn't have the baggage of systemd.
15:17:41 <asamalik> we talked about something like that with zbyszek some time ago!
15:18:07 <tdawson> From what I'm seeing, that might be our currently best bet.
15:18:26 <asamalik> yeah
15:19:28 <tdawson> If we go this route, we might even be able to pull in some other "hardware-specific" features, such as if something wants a firmware, or something weird like that.  But, that's for later on down the road.
15:19:51 <asamalik> that would be worth discussing with the container sig
15:20:20 <tdawson> That's a good point ... I didn't even thing of bringing this up with them.
15:20:28 <tdawson> /thing/think/
15:20:54 <asamalik> like a bigger topic of accommodating traditional-environment-oriented packages in containers
15:21:23 <tdawson> Ya, that sounds like a good idea.
15:21:27 <asamalik> cool! do we want to #info a thing or two?
15:22:52 <tdawson> #info systemd-sysuser  is for adding system users.  It is beginning to become more poplular in Fedora.  t pulls in systemd, which can add up to 60M to a container.
15:23:33 <tdawson> #info We have tried seperating systemd-sysuser from systemd, unsuccessfully.
15:24:48 <tdawson> #info We are currently looking into some type of "systemd-container-stub", that will be a substiture for systemd, as well as have the functionality of adding system users.
15:25:35 <tdawson> #info We should talk with the containers-sig about a bigger topic of accommodating traditional-environment-oriented packages in containers
15:25:41 <tdawson> Hopefully that sums things up.
15:25:50 <asamalik> tdawson++
15:25:50 <zodbot> asamalik: Karma for tdawson changed to 4 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:25:51 <asamalik> thanks
15:26:24 <asamalik> #topic === Focus & what's next? ===
15:26:28 <asamalik> What are we working on that is worth mentioning? Plans for the next week? month? release?
15:28:24 <asamalik> #info since this objective is approved in it's first phase (the Discovery Phase) until the end of September, asamalik will be drafting a specific proposal for the next phase in the following two weeks, and proposing it to the Fedora Council — ideas very welcome!
15:30:04 <asamalik> but other than that, I will focus on the Feedback Pipeline primarily
15:30:57 <tdawson> I plan on investigating and testing a systemd stub of some type.
15:31:31 <tdawson> I plan on pinging a few openshift people about it.
15:31:44 <asamalik> tdawson: that sounds like a very good idea, too!
15:33:31 <asamalik> all right :)
15:33:37 <asamalik> #topic === Open Floor ===
15:33:41 <asamalik> Anything else?
15:34:03 <tdawson> Nothing from me.
15:34:22 <asamalik> I'm thinking how (if) to make this meeting more useful — we have good conversations on the list and in the tickets, but very few people attend here
15:34:23 <jaruga> Nothing.
15:34:41 <asamalik> maybe the async style is better at this point?
15:36:09 <asamalik> I'll think about it — maybe just discussing issues tagged with Meeting would be the best, and if there is nothing, we'd cancel the meeting
15:36:20 <asamalik> that's what a few other groups in Fedora do
15:36:21 <jaruga> Today I am just not a good condition to speak (too much sleepy).
15:36:41 <asamalik> jaruga: I was like that yesterday!
15:37:28 <jaruga> Sorry about it.
15:38:30 <asamalik> one more win for async conversations — people can talk when the most convenient!
15:38:55 <jaruga> Or how about using a survey to involve people?
15:39:10 <asamalik> jaruga: what do you mean exactly here?
15:40:08 <jaruga> asamalik, I mean sending survey what is your needs for the minimization? Do you have an idea for many people to attend the meeting?
15:40:46 <jaruga> asamalik, the survey to send devel@ mailing list.
15:41:51 <asamalik> I don't need people to attend the meeting just for attending it — all I want is for people have the most effective environment to work — so recognizing when to have the meeting and when not is I think what we want
15:42:37 <jaruga> asamalik, agree with the opinion.
15:42:57 <asamalik> it's sometimes valuable to have a live discussion, but not always, and it has its disadvantages, too, like forcing everyone to be available at the same time
15:43:25 <jaruga> asamalik, I agree with this.
15:44:33 <asamalik> so let's try that — if there is a need, people can tag an issue with the Meeting tag and we'll discuss it
15:44:58 <asamalik> other than that, we'll cancel the meeting in advance to free people's time
15:45:16 <jaruga> asamalik, sure. that's effective and comfortable.
15:45:17 <asamalik> I'll open an issue about that so people can react to it
15:45:40 <tdawson> Sounds like a good plan.
15:49:26 <asamalik> #info We're thinking about changing how to approach this meeting — maybe only have it when we have actual topics to talk about. Discuss here: https://pagure.io/minimization/issue/14
15:49:30 <asamalik> all right!
15:49:42 <asamalik> anything else?
15:49:58 <asamalik> if not, let's have the 10 mins back!
15:50:04 <jaruga> Sure, thanks!
15:50:33 <tdawson> Nothing from me.  Let's have those 10 minutes.
15:50:37 <asamalik> thanks for coming!
15:50:41 <asamalik> #endmeeting