16:00:44 <decathorpe> #startmeeting Stewardship SIG Meeting (2019-12-10)
16:00:44 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Dec 10 16:00:44 2019 UTC.
16:00:44 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
16:00:44 <zodbot> The chair is decathorpe. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:44 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:44 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'stewardship_sig_meeting_(2019-12-10)'
16:00:52 <mhroncok> .hello churchyard
16:00:53 <decathorpe> #meetingname stewardship-sig
16:00:53 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'stewardship-sig'
16:00:53 <zodbot> mhroncok: churchyard 'Miro Hrončok' <mhroncok@redhat.com>
16:01:11 <decathorpe> #topic Who's here?
16:01:18 <decathorpe> #chair mhroncok
16:01:18 <zodbot> Current chairs: decathorpe mhroncok
16:01:36 <decathorpe> cipherboy, sillebille: o/
16:01:55 <sillebille> decathorpe, hello \o
16:02:12 <decathorpe> hello!
16:02:15 <decathorpe> #chair sillebille
16:02:15 <zodbot> Current chairs: decathorpe mhroncok sillebille
16:03:10 <cipherboy> \o
16:03:41 <decathorpe> #chair cipherboy
16:03:41 <zodbot> Current chairs: cipherboy decathorpe mhroncok sillebille
16:03:57 <decathorpe> alright, let's start. I don't think anybody else will show up
16:04:10 <decathorpe> #topic Status Update
16:04:36 <decathorpe> - non-responsive maintainer processes went through for some Java packagers
16:05:03 <decathorpe> - I unorphaned the 10 packages that our packages need
16:05:10 <decathorpe> - I'm looking into whether we can drop some of them
16:05:44 <decathorpe> - at yesterday's FESCo meeting, we agreed to try to fix non-modular eclipse in f31
16:06:34 <decathorpe> I think that's it so far ...
16:06:35 <mhroncok> today, I ahve retired one more orpahned eclipse package
16:06:49 <mhroncok> they really need to strat caring, or there will be nothing to repair
16:07:01 <mbooth> mhroncok: They?
16:07:11 <mhroncok> mbooth: eclipse miantiners
16:07:11 <decathorpe> hey mbooth :)
16:07:14 <mhroncok> hey
16:07:32 <decathorpe> I think "they" is optimistic
16:07:33 <mhroncok> mbooth: because half of the stack is retired, half orphaned
16:07:41 <mbooth> mhroncok: Try maintainer singular
16:07:46 <mhroncok> it seemed to em that there are at least 2 maintainers involved
16:07:53 <mhroncok> in case I have missed that, sorry
16:08:26 <mhroncok> there was one other who said the bureaucracy is blocking this, repeatadly, I probabyl mistaken them for maintiners
16:09:40 <mhroncok> it was akurtakov
16:09:44 <mhroncok> not a maintainer?
16:10:01 <mbooth> He's not active, I've been defacto maintainer for years
16:10:32 <decathorpe> oof okay.
16:11:05 <mhroncok> mbooth: mea culpa. he has been very loud
16:11:16 <cipherboy> decathorpe: mhroncok: mbooth: So will we (the SIG) be picking up ursine eclipse like we've done with ant and maven, or will mbooth be maintaining them?
16:11:33 <decathorpe> we haven't talked about this yet.
16:11:51 <mhroncok> I'd suggest we as a sig would help to resssurect the depndency tree and try to chop it down a bit
16:11:52 <mbooth> mhroncok: Well, he's upstream and doesn't like it when his project looks bad.
16:12:17 <decathorpe> mhroncok: yeah, we can start working on the problem from both ends
16:12:24 <mhroncok> while eclipse-sig (=mbooth) would keep eclipse itself and eclipse-* packages. does that make sense?
16:12:53 <mhroncok> IIRC there were two problems with ecplipse - it doesn't build, because deps are retired
16:13:16 <decathorpe> mhconrok: yeah, that was my idea
16:13:19 <mhroncok> and it doesn't install becasue glassfish is exluded - the second might actually been solved via the effort to enable eclipse modular stream
16:13:35 <mhroncok> mbooth: is that about right?
16:15:10 <mhroncok> there are cca 26 oprhaned eclipse-* packages: https://churchyard.fedorapeople.org/orphans.txt
16:15:20 <mbooth> FWIW I am looking at my packages to see what is or is not worth ressurecting. I think I can reduce tycho module from 45 packages to ~30 packages
16:15:53 <decathorpe> mbooth: is there some way to split "core eclipse" from "eclipse extensions"?
16:16:04 <decathorpe> I'm not familiar enough with it.
16:16:16 <mbooth> decathorpe: I am not sure the purpose.
16:16:42 <mbooth> mhroncok: TBH if we are ressurrecting ursine deps, then I don't care about modularity anymore
16:16:54 <decathorpe> no, I mean, to prioritise which packages to fix first
16:17:18 <decathorpe> I can try to gather a list of packages that we need to unretire.
16:17:46 <mhroncok> mbooth: I think we should resurrect the ursine packages and kill the eclipse module, but so far it looked like that would not be what you want
16:18:21 <mhroncok> every time you try to make the modular eclipse work, there is another bug, like a hydra
16:19:11 <mbooth> mhroncok: It is because I want to depend on a supported version of maven -- it seems like stewardship ship has not really expertise or man power, but the maven module is supported by RH.
16:19:30 <mbooth> But I am backed into corner once again, so here we are :-)
16:19:36 <decathorpe> which version of maven do you need?
16:19:43 <mhroncok> we have Fedora packages supported by RH?
16:20:11 <cipherboy> mbooth: And please, feel free to reach out the SIG to see if we can maintain deps for you in the future :-) We'll keep an eye out for eclipse deps and make sure we don't orphan them.
16:20:33 <mbooth> decathorpe: 3.6.2 on F30+ please
16:20:48 <mbooth> mhroncok: Only because mikolaj is a red hatter and the module is used internally
16:20:50 <mhroncok> I mean, decathorpe said recently that the stewardship sig cannot miantain maven forever, but so far it seems maintained quite well
16:21:01 <mbooth> cipherboy: They are maintained -- as the module ;-)
16:21:34 <mhroncok> this is just horrible
16:21:59 <mbooth> mhroncok: Yeah there's my problem --- at end of the day all I care about is my users' experience. I honestly don't care if it's in modularity or ursine distro
16:22:13 <mhroncok> so it's either "maintain your own dep tree" or "go modular, but nothing really works"
16:22:16 <decathorpe> mbooth: maven 3.6.1 is in rawhide. the update to 3.6.3 should be possible. backporting it to f31 might be possible. backporting it to f30 is a stretch though :)
16:22:35 <mhroncok> mbooth: flatpak? :D
16:22:41 <mbooth> decathorpe: This is a problem that modularity solves ;-)
16:22:47 <mbooth> mhroncok: Yes please :-)
16:23:00 <mhroncok> at least in theory
16:23:06 <mbooth> I was under the impression that modularity was the only long term solution for maven support, but maybe I'm wrong
16:23:16 <mbooth> (In Fedora that is)
16:23:27 <mbooth> mhroncok: Well I am the maintainer of Eclipse in Flathub too
16:24:01 <mbooth> mhroncok: I'm breaking my back trying to make the Flatpak experience good enough I can retire all RPMs
16:24:30 <mbooth> Because frankly I'm tired of RPM
16:24:33 <decathorpe> mbooth: yeah, I noticed the flathub package. it might be the easier solution long-term :(
16:24:37 <mhroncok> mbooth: in the menatime, do you plan to unorphan the eclipse packages? or those are some plugins we don't actually need?
16:25:04 <mbooth> mhroncok: There are some I don't need. I am making a list
16:25:09 <mhroncok> cool
16:25:24 <decathorpe> great, thanks.
16:25:52 <mhroncok> #action mbooth to draft a list of packages to be unretired/unorphaned
16:26:02 <decathorpe> you know what's funny?
16:26:18 <mhroncok> about this? nothing any more
16:26:26 <decathorpe> some packages we need were retired 8 weeks + 2 days ago. so they'll need re-review
16:26:38 <cipherboy> decathorpe: Every time we mention eclipse, mbooth comes out of nowhere? :D
16:26:43 <cipherboy> decathorpe: I can take those, give me a list.
16:27:12 <decathorpe> cipherboy: glassfish-jsp, apache-commons-el, ...
16:27:18 <mbooth> cipherboy: My client highlights "eclipse" in Fedora channels and "fedora" in Eclipse channels --- I ... am ... every ... where :-p
16:27:26 <decathorpe> cipherboy: decentxml
16:27:27 <mhroncok> some packages we need were retired 8 weeks + 2 days ago - excellent. it's helpful to rereview the peckages once in a while \o/
16:28:07 <cipherboy> decathorpe: ACK, I'll take a look at those three to start.
16:28:37 <decathorpe> great :)
16:28:45 <mbooth> decathorpe, mhroncok: If Eclipse is the only consumer of these packages, may as well assign them to me. Then I won't be surprised by breakage when they are updated *cough*snakeyaml*cough*
16:29:47 <mhroncok> we try to avoid breakage when we upgrade
16:30:08 <mhroncok> like https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/snakeyaml/pull-request/3#comment-29430
16:30:59 <decathorpe> hm. I did not notice any issue with snakeyaml. but modular packages obviously weren't included in the test rebuild
16:31:08 <decathorpe> so, sorry if the update broke something
16:31:11 <mbooth> I assume tesla-polyglot is retired in the ursine distro then if you didn't see the API breakage
16:31:22 <mbooth> Never mind
16:31:24 <decathorpe> yes, that package is gone
16:31:41 <decathorpe> I only patched JRuby for some changed API
16:32:46 <mbooth> It doesn't make a lot of sense to me for modules to rely on packages from the distro -- it's too fragile that way
16:33:14 <decathorpe> yeah, it seems like it's not really designed to support that
16:35:56 <decathorpe> #action cipherboy will work on re-reviews for apache-commons-el, decentxml, glassfish-jsp
16:35:58 <decathorpe> alright. anything else we need to know for now?
16:36:21 <cipherboy> decathorpe: I'll PM you with some administrative things, but that's it.
16:36:31 <decathorpe> good good
16:37:09 <decathorpe> any chance somebody will look at triaging open bugs or reviewing open PRs?
16:37:22 <decathorpe> if not, let's do that after the holidays :D haha
16:38:00 <decathorpe> #topic Open Floor
16:38:35 <mhroncok> decathorpe: when to do the next meeting?
16:38:48 <mhroncok> the scheduled one is on the 24th
16:39:02 <mhroncok> I suggest we skip it and continue regurarly on 7th
16:39:33 <decathorpe> yeah good idea. skip Dec 24, regroup on Jan 7
16:40:47 <decathorpe> cipherboy, sillebille: any objections?
16:40:59 <sillebille> nope
16:41:05 <cipherboy> decathorpe: None from me.
16:41:27 * sillebille was juggling things with things at hackathon! :\
16:41:41 <cipherboy> decathorpe: mhroncok: Come on, no Christmas Eve Stewardship SIG carols or anything? :D
16:41:51 <mhroncok> nope
16:42:05 <cipherboy> Fair enough. :)
16:42:09 <decathorpe> great. do you want to get 20 minutes of your life back? (minus the years of life force the modularity discussion is draining from us)
16:42:23 <cipherboy> Works for me, thanks everyone!
16:42:59 <decathorpe> mbooth++ mhroncok++ cipherboy++ sillebille++
16:42:59 <zodbot> decathorpe: Karma for mbooth changed to 2 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
16:43:02 <zodbot> decathorpe: Karma for churchyard changed to 8 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
16:43:05 <zodbot> decathorpe: Karma for cipherboy changed to 1 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
16:43:14 <decathorpe> have some cookies everyone
16:43:32 <cipherboy> decathorpe++ and you as well!
16:43:32 <zodbot> cipherboy: Karma for decathorpe changed to 3 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
16:43:55 <mhroncok> decathorpe++ thanks
16:43:56 <zodbot> mhroncok: Karma for decathorpe changed to 4 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
16:44:01 <decathorpe> alright, then happy non-denominational holidays everybody ;)
16:44:27 <decathorpe> (hope I spelled that one right)
16:44:51 <decathorpe> #endmeeting