15:00:56 <zbyszek> #startmeeting FESCO (2020-03-16)
15:00:56 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Mar 16 15:00:56 2020 UTC.
15:00:56 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
15:00:56 <zodbot> The chair is zbyszek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:00:56 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:00:56 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco_(2020-03-16)'
15:00:56 <zbyszek> #meetingname fesco
15:00:56 <zbyszek> #chair nirik, ignatenkobrain, decathorpe, zbyszek, bookwar, sgallagh, contyk, mhroncok, dcantrell
15:00:57 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco'
15:00:57 <zodbot> Current chairs: bookwar contyk dcantrell decathorpe ignatenkobrain mhroncok nirik sgallagh zbyszek
15:00:59 <zbyszek> #topic init process
15:01:00 <zbyszek> .hello2
15:01:01 <zodbot> zbyszek: zbyszek 'Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek' <zbyszek@in.waw.pl>
15:01:04 <bcotton> .hello2
15:01:04 <sgallagh> .hello2
15:01:05 <zodbot> bcotton: bcotton 'Ben Cotton' <bcotton@redhat.com>
15:01:07 <dcantrell> .hello2
15:01:08 <zodbot> sgallagh: sgallagh 'Stephen Gallagher' <sgallagh@redhat.com>
15:01:11 <zodbot> dcantrell: dcantrell 'None' <dcantrell@redhat.com>
15:01:23 <dcantrell> I'm not None, I'm David Cantrell
15:01:25 <nirik> morning
15:01:26 <zbyszek> mhroncok said they he'll be late a bit
15:02:34 <bcotton> dcantrell: sorry, you're None now
15:02:44 <dcantrell> virus got me
15:02:57 <zbyszek> dcantrell: do you maybe have "privacy settings" on?
15:03:13 <zbyszek> .fasinfo dcantrell
15:03:21 <zodbot> zbyszek: User: dcantrell, Name: None, email: dcantrell@redhat.com, Creation: 2020-02-24, IRC Nick: None, Timezone: None, Locale: None, GPG key ID: None, Status: active
15:03:24 <zodbot> zbyszek: Approved Groups: gitinitial-setup gitblivet @gitrepoman @gitlivecd @gitlorax @gitdhcpv6 @gitanaconda @gitdhcdbd @gitlibdhcp @gitpump @gitpyparted fedorabugs packager ambassadors cla_done cla_fpca
15:03:24 <zbyszek> .fasinfo dcantrel
15:03:26 <zodbot> zbyszek: User: dcantrel, Name: David Cantrell, email: dcantrel@redhat.com, Creation: 2005-12-14, IRC Nick: dcantrell, Timezone: US/Eastern, Locale: en, GPG key ID: 62977BB9C841B965, Status: active
15:03:34 <zodbot> zbyszek: Approved Groups: ambassadors fedorabugs cla_fedora cla_done packager @gitpyparted @gitpump @gitlibdhcp @gitdhcdbd @gitanaconda @gitdhcpv6 @gitlorax @gitlivecd @gitrepoman cla_fpca gitblivet gitinitial-setup
15:03:54 <nirik> yes, thats due to privacy settings.
15:04:02 <dcantrell> oh, oops
15:04:03 <dcantrell> my bad
15:04:08 <dcantrell> I can un-privacy myself
15:04:12 * nirik doesn't think it matters. ;)
15:04:26 <sgallagh> harsh
15:05:22 <zbyszek> So... we're at 4, so no quorum
15:05:25 <nirik> well, in the sense that there's no fomal requirement to have it open to be in a fesco meeting.
15:05:27 <bookwar> .hello2
15:05:32 <zodbot> bookwar: bookwar 'Aleksandra Fedorova' <alpha@bookwar.info>
15:05:37 <zbyszek> 5 now, OK, let's start.
15:05:39 <bookwar> sorry, i am late )
15:05:56 <zbyszek> #topic #2356 Fedora 31: Reset eclipse stream for all (once) or leave the bugzilla unfixed?
15:05:59 <zbyszek> .fesco 2356
15:06:00 <zodbot> zbyszek: Issue #2356: Fedora 31: Reset eclipse stream for all (once) or leave the bugzilla unfixed? - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2356
15:06:07 <zbyszek> There was some voting in the ticket...
15:06:47 <sgallagh> I'm slightly reluctant to solve this by a %posttrans scriptlet, but as I can't think of a better answer...
15:07:45 <zbyszek> Yeah, this is not pretty.
15:07:46 <dcantrell> I'm in favor of resetting sooner rather than later
15:08:01 <bookwar> commented with my +1 on the tocket too
15:08:02 <sgallagh> ☝️
15:08:18 <nirik> so if we don't wait, we break all the people who manually enabled that other module?
15:08:54 <decathorpe> hi! sorry for being late.
15:08:56 <nirik> I'm in favor of fixing the maven thing then doing the reset.
15:09:14 <zbyszek> hi decathorpe, we're discussing #2356.
15:09:44 <zbyszek> That's a good point.
15:09:44 <dcantrell> do we have any idea on the number of people who intentionally enabled the eclipse module?
15:09:53 <dcantrell> or any way to get that data?
15:10:07 <sgallagh> No on both
15:10:34 <sgallagh> nirik: There's no evidence to suggest that the maven maintainer is going to take any action
15:10:39 <dcantrell> that is unfortunate.  while this proposal is potentially messy, I think we'd be ok if we did it and gave a heads up to the people who enabled the eclipse module
15:10:46 <sgallagh> Waiting would therefore be just a waste of time
15:10:48 * nirik is reading the bug now, yeah. ;(
15:11:13 <nirik> is there a manual way to fix the breakage? something we could at least point users to?
15:12:00 <dcantrell> a general announcement and info page would be ok to me
15:13:13 <nirik> yeah, an announce email with info on how to manually recover would be good.
15:13:22 <nirik> along with the reset
15:14:24 <kalev> would it make sense to reset both maven and eclipse?
15:14:30 <zbyszek> After rereading the thread, I still think the reset as proposed in the fesco ticket is appropriate.
15:15:00 <zbyszek> It would be nice to emit a big warning that this reset was done along with a link to a wiki page.
15:15:40 <nirik> I'm fine with the reset, I just don't want users to have a broken eclipse after and no information about how to make it work again.
15:16:18 * sgallagh bites his tongue about Eclipse upgrades in general.
15:16:19 <zbyszek> We're a few days away from exactly a month with no movement on #1800528, so I don't think waiting is useful.
15:16:57 <dcantrell> ^ I agree
15:17:08 <zbyszek> proposal: implement reset as proposed as soon as a wiki page that explain how to handle eclipse installation is available and link to that page from a message in the reset scriptlet
15:17:22 <sgallagh> zbyszek: +1
15:17:37 <dcantrell> +1
15:17:39 <sgallagh> zbyszek: Should the scriptlet emit that message during the upgrade?
15:17:42 <nirik> can we also do a announce post? I think we should be transparent here...
15:17:48 <sgallagh> yes
15:17:51 <dcantrell> nirik: yes, I think so definitely
15:18:01 <decathorpe> +1 plus announcement +1
15:18:10 <bookwar> +1, with message and announcement
15:18:11 <zbyszek> sgallagh: yes, I think so... Doing reset of ... See ... for more info.
15:18:17 <dcantrell> the announcement should also mention when the change will happen and maybe go out some number of days before
15:18:30 <nirik> +1 with all that.
15:18:43 <zbyszek> Yeah, +1 will all the ammendments.
15:19:13 <zbyszek> I'll write it up in the summary.
15:20:30 <zbyszek> #agree Reset is approved (with details to be written up) (+5, 0, 0)
15:20:37 <zbyszek> #2354 32-bit ARM installer release-blocking status unclear
15:20:37 <decathorpe> I have a question
15:20:37 <zbyszek> .fesco 2356
15:20:40 <zodbot> zbyszek: Issue #2356: Fedora 31: Reset eclipse stream for all (once) or leave the bugzilla unfixed? - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2356
15:20:40 <nirik> who is going to do the work on it? ;)
15:20:49 <zbyszek> #undo
15:20:49 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: AGREED by zbyszek at 15:20:30 : Reset is approved (with details to be written up) (+5, 0, 0)
15:21:06 <zbyszek> #topic #2356 Fedora 31: Reset eclipse stream for all (once) or leave the bugzilla unfixed?
15:21:10 <decathorpe> sorry for being too slow :)
15:21:11 <sgallagh> nirik: I'll adapt mhroncok's scriptlet and send the PR
15:21:12 <zbyszek> #agree Reset is approved (with details to be written up) (+5, 0, 0)
15:21:43 <sgallagh> #action sgallagh to submit PR for fedora-release to implement the reset.
15:21:45 <decathorpe> is this the correct location for the definition of the maven module? https://src.fedoraproject.org/modules/maven/blob/3.5/f/maven.yaml
15:21:45 <mhroncok> here I am
15:21:54 * nirik can do the builds, but someone who knows the issue better might be good to make the announcement email
15:22:49 <zbyszek> Dunno, if nobody else wants to do it, I can create the wiki page.
15:23:24 <zbyszek> #action zbyszek to write up available options in the wiki
15:23:34 <zbyszek> decathorpe, nirik: ok to move one?
15:23:40 <zbyszek> *on
15:23:48 <decathorpe> I'd like an answer to my question, please
15:24:02 <zbyszek> decathorpe: oh, yes, sorry, yes.
15:24:06 <nirik> I guess I can try and write up the announce email from the wiki page... zbyszek, can you let me know when thats made?
15:24:08 <mhroncok> decathorpe: for the 3.5 stream
15:24:21 <decathorpe> 3.5 is still the default though, right?
15:25:13 <mhroncok> decathorpe: on 31 and 30
15:25:19 <mhroncok> decathorpe: no default on 32 and rawhide
15:25:22 <decathorpe> right
15:25:34 <decathorpe> well, neither the 3.5 or 3.6 branches have been updated for half a year, and 3.5 still has platform: f29
15:25:45 <decathorpe> that doesn't look good to me :(
15:25:54 <zbyszek> decathorpe: btw, https://pagure.io/releng/fedora-module-defaults/blob/master/f/maven.yaml is the file to look at.
15:26:24 <sgallagh> decathorpe: That was the platform they were building on, but yeah: not good.
15:26:35 <zbyszek> What does '3.5 [default]\n3.6 [default]' mean there?
15:26:41 <decathorpe> I have no idea
15:26:42 <mhroncok> zbyszek: profile
15:26:51 <mhroncok> zbyszek: the default installation profile is called default
15:27:06 <sgallagh> zbyszek: Those are the profiles to install if not explicitly stated.
15:27:09 <mhroncok> I am sorry for being late, but what is the purpuse of this now?
15:27:17 <sgallagh> There's no default stream on the master (Rawhide) branch
15:27:26 <decathorpe> I just wanted to ask if I was looking at the correct information (because it looks abandoned)
15:27:29 <sgallagh> See the other branches of that repo for the appropriate stream defaults
15:27:44 <zbyszek> Yeah, let's not discuss this here.
15:27:54 <decathorpe> agreed
15:27:59 <zbyszek> #2354 32-bit ARM installer release-blocking status unclear
15:27:59 <zbyszek> .fesco 2356
15:28:01 <zodbot> zbyszek: Issue #2356: Fedora 31: Reset eclipse stream for all (once) or leave the bugzilla unfixed? - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2356
15:28:01 <sgallagh> mhroncok: Human interaction in this time of isolation?
15:28:15 <mhroncok> sgallagh: right
15:28:19 <zbyszek> .fesco 2354
15:28:20 <zodbot> zbyszek: Issue #2354: 32-bit ARM installer release-blocking status unclear - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2354
15:28:50 * nirik voted in ticket.
15:29:23 <sgallagh> By my count, we have +5 FESCo votes in the ticket
15:29:29 <sgallagh> Plus one extra from Mohan
15:29:30 <decathorpe> +1 for option 1
15:29:53 <zbyszek> proposed: Option is approved (+6, 0, 0)
15:29:55 <zbyszek> ?
15:30:08 <mhroncok> option 1
15:30:13 <dcantrell> I'm +1 for 1)
15:30:36 <zbyszek> mhroncok: you already voted in the ticket ;)
15:31:21 <zbyszek> With decathorpe's and dcantrell's votes I see +7.
15:31:38 <mhroncok> zbyszek: yes, that was a corection for your proposal
15:31:58 <zbyszek> mhroncok: I see it now.
15:32:00 <zbyszek> #agreed Option 1 is approved (+7, 0, 0)
15:32:25 <zbyszek> Someone needs to update the wiki. Volunteers?
15:33:56 <zbyszek> nirik, sgallagh?
15:34:16 <nirik> we can ask bcotton to?
15:34:41 <nirik> he maintains the list I think
15:34:45 <zbyszek> Right, according to the wiki history, bcotton is the sole author of the page.
15:34:47 <nirik> lets ask/coordinate in ticket?
15:35:04 <zbyszek> #action bcotton to update the wiki or reassign to the next "volunteer"
15:35:09 <bcotton> ack
15:35:19 <zbyszek> #topic Next week's chair
15:35:24 <zbyszek> I can do it again.
15:35:33 <zbyszek> #action zbyszek will chair the next meeting
15:35:41 <zbyszek> #topic Open Floor
15:35:48 <mhroncok> .fesco 2284
15:35:50 <zodbot> mhroncok: Issue #2284: Adapt the Updates policy for Rawhide gating - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2284
15:36:04 <mhroncok> bookwar: would you mind unvolunteering this one?
15:36:39 <bookwar> mhroncok: sorry for the delays
15:36:41 <bookwar> do you want to volunteer for it?
15:36:45 <bookwar> or anyone else?
15:37:00 <bookwar> or I can actually do it, i'll set a deadline this time..
15:37:03 <zbyszek> It'd be good for someone involved in the gating initiative to write this up.
15:37:03 <mhroncok> bookwar: I wnated 2 onths ago. now I am swamped, but if you are too, better to keep it "free to take"
15:37:15 <mhroncok> *wanted 2 months
15:37:34 <bookwar> mhroncok: ok, let me try again and promise to do it by next week meeting
15:37:40 <mhroncok> bookwar++
15:37:40 <zodbot> mhroncok: Karma for bookwar changed to 3 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:37:54 <bookwar> sorry for getting in the way, i didn't realize that at that time
15:38:52 <mhroncok> bookwar: no problem
15:39:34 <zbyszek> #action bookwar to write up #2284
15:39:39 <zbyszek> Anyone else?
15:39:44 * bookwar removes three old sticky notes from the screen, and adds a new one
15:39:49 <dcantrell> yeah, not an action but just an observation from last week
15:40:00 <dcantrell> I hit a problem trying to use subversion-devel, the ursine package
15:40:25 <dcantrell> it's broken on a default install.  when I reported it via BZ, I was told that's known and there are no plans to update it and the working one is available via a module
15:40:39 <dcantrell> so to me this is another module vs. not-module bad experience
15:40:58 <dcantrell> we're offering a broken subversion-devel package with no plans to fix it (per the maintainer)
15:41:12 <zbyszek> .whoowns subversion
15:41:13 <dcantrell> just wanted to mention that to everyone as another data point
15:41:13 <zodbot> zbyszek: owner: jorton
15:41:25 <nirik> not nice.
15:41:46 <dcantrell> as a package maintainer, I get not wanting to do the work twice.
15:42:14 <dcantrell> but I can't see how we can continue to offer modules with packages and just packages and expect things to work
15:42:14 <nirik> but wouldn't they normally retire the non modular one then?
15:42:21 <dcantrell> dunno
15:42:46 <zbyszek> Having subversion as a module seems totally pointless to me. It's just borrowing trouble.
15:42:52 <sgallagh> subversion is a dependency for a lot of things
15:43:02 <sgallagh> They really *can't* retire it
15:43:10 <mhroncok> sgallagh: they can orphan it
15:43:11 <dcantrell> even if they did retire the non-modular one, that sets a precedent for making modules and removing functionality developers may have been ysing
15:43:15 <dcantrell> *using
15:43:19 <nirik> also without default streams they likely wouldn't have it as discoverable
15:43:28 <sgallagh> <-- choir
15:43:32 <mhroncok> .bug 1812195
15:43:36 <zodbot> mhroncok: 1812195 – libraries and pkg-config results do not match - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/1812195
15:43:44 <nirik> but if you have it, you would think you could want it to... you know, work?
15:44:12 <dcantrell> my use case is small, but collectively this sort of experience makes fedora unpleasant to work on as a developer
15:44:16 <dcantrell> which I don't think any of us want
15:44:20 <mhroncok> I don't read that as "no plans to fix it"
15:44:38 <mhroncok> I read the response as "this is not updated yet"
15:44:48 <nirik> yeah, it's still open...
15:44:58 <decathorpe> but it also doesn't sound like "I'm going to fix this"
15:45:11 <mhroncok> always assume the best intention, when in doubt, ask
15:45:14 <zbyszek> It's been just a few days OTOH
15:45:17 <dcantrell> that's correct, I read it as "yes, it's a problem" but then didn't explicitly say it would or would not be fixed
15:45:35 <decathorpe> mhroncok: sure. but vague answer doesn't help
15:45:56 <dcantrell> I'll ask for clarification rather than assuming
15:46:07 <decathorpe> dcantrell: +1
15:46:15 <nirik> yeah. ask when it might be fixed and perhaps if they need help ask devel list?
15:46:45 <dcantrell> to me it sounded very much like a response I've gotten in the past from owners who do acknowledge the problem but don't commit to a fix
15:47:09 <nirik> it could well be that they don't have the time to deal with all the rebuilds needed.
15:47:22 * nirik is speculating of course.
15:47:53 <dcantrell> no worries, I'll ask for clarification
15:48:12 <dcantrell> as someone who is avoiding modules on all systems, I continue to hit problems like this.  not sure if others are in the same boat
15:49:13 <mhroncok> dcantrell: I retire orphaned Java packages with a shovel if that helps your data points
15:50:08 <zbyszek> But at this point Java issues as as much related to lack of maintainer power as to modules.
15:50:16 <zbyszek> Or more.
15:50:45 <zbyszek> Let's move on...
15:50:54 <zbyszek> Anything else for open floor?
15:51:16 <zbyszek> I'll close in a minute.
15:52:05 <zbyszek> I see bcotton posted a bunch of F33 changes while this meeting has been going on...
15:52:33 <zbyszek> Thank you all.
15:52:36 <zbyszek> #endmeeting