14:01:12 <amoloney> #startmeeting CPE-PO-OH
14:01:12 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu May  7 14:01:12 2020 UTC.
14:01:12 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
14:01:12 <zodbot> The chair is amoloney. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:01:12 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:01:12 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'cpe-po-oh'
14:01:24 <amoloney> #meetingname CPE Project Owner Office Hours
14:01:24 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'cpe_project_owner_office_hours'
14:01:30 <clime> hey
14:01:35 <amoloney> #info About the CPE team: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/cpe/
14:01:43 <cverna> Hello o/
14:02:12 * amoloney sent a long message:  < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/NKnXEcnWphNAJFOPBzgWvJFO >
14:03:07 <amoloney> #topic Open Floor
14:03:20 <pingou> I'll just paste the old one for you
14:03:27 <pingou> #topic introducing the office hours
14:03:28 <pingou> Hi, I'm Aoife the project owner of the CPE team and I'm planning on holding office hours every week at this time (14:00 UTC)
14:03:30 <pingou> here (#fedora-meeting-1).
14:03:32 <pingou> If you have any thing you would like to discuss feel free to come otherwise just know I'll be there and then in case you need.
14:03:33 <amoloney> Hey Clem & clme!
14:03:36 <pingou> #optic Open Floor
14:03:39 <pingou> arf
14:03:42 <amoloney> and thank you pingou :)
14:03:44 <pingou> #topic Open Floor
14:05:00 <amoloney> Feel free to ask questions or just chat, I'll be here for the next hour and am happy to talk (as the team can vouch for!)
14:05:11 <clime> i think the correct approach with git forge thing would be to restart the whole process and have the all options still on the table including pagure.
14:07:15 <Defolos> yeah, I'm afraid I have a question about the git forge stuff as well: how long will be pagure kept around?
14:07:28 <Defolos> specifically src.fedoraproject.org and pagure.io?
14:07:56 <amoloney> All of the options were on the table from the start and I do genuinely understand the frustration that was felt around the way the decision was announced, but we have made a decision to explore GitLab as our gitforge option and are doing so in detail now - and very openly!
14:08:41 <Defolos> amoloney: are you planning to include something in Gitlab directly?
14:08:47 <Defolos> or use the gitlab API?
14:09:31 <pingou> Defolos: include something in GL?
14:09:39 <clime> amoloney: it's a bit late now
14:10:04 <Defolos> pingou: well gitlab by itself is not really a dist-git, is it?
14:10:04 <clime> the process you have held should be done under open decision framework. I don't think that was the case.
14:10:23 <Defolos> there's a whole bunch of stuff missing to be a viable replacement of src.fp.org
14:10:26 <amoloney> src.fedoraproject.org is not going away and the current idea is to eventually replace this with GitLab  but there is no timeline on this as of yet as we are too early in the process
14:10:54 <Defolos> I'and pagure.io?
14:11:14 <amoloney> theres also no plan to decomission pagure.io, but we do need help maintaining it
14:11:43 <Defolos> amoloney: do you know the openSUSE Heroes?
14:12:44 <siddharthvipul> Defolos: I think idea is not just to take help with Infra issues but also with development
14:13:02 <siddharthvipul> I see your point of a process to get more help in Infra side, but maybe that's a different discussion
14:13:33 <Defolos> siddharthvipul: well, neal has been working hard on the development side of things to get a community built around pagure
14:13:52 <Defolos> (which imho makes the timing of this whole decision really terrible, but that's a different story)
14:14:09 <siddharthvipul> Defolos: and mad props to neals.. he is just amazing
14:14:19 <Defolos> siddharthvipul: he is
14:14:20 <amoloney> Im sorry you feel that way clime, and I agree that there was communication missed towards the end but I am certainly trying very hard to make sure that does not happen again as this develops further
14:14:38 <siddharthvipul> but you are comparing a couple of folks effort to a company.. and again, neals effort are not really going here since pagure itself is not dying
14:14:52 <siddharthvipul> Pagure lives :)
14:14:54 <pingou> Defolos: regarding gitlab on dist-git, the evaluation of what it will take to replace our dist-git with gitlab is basically what is going on (iiuc)
14:15:24 <Defolos> pingou: I do hope you like Rails…
14:15:32 <Defolos> because you're going to see a whole lot of it…
14:15:49 <clime> amoloney: well, it's not about just how I feel but also what I think is the right action to get things fixed
14:15:51 * siddharthvipul laughs and cries a little
14:15:58 <pingou> Defolos: none of us in the team speaks ruby, that's also being considered :)
14:16:14 <Defolos> clime: I'm afraid we'll have to live with the CPE decision wrt to gitlab, this is *not* going to change
14:16:25 <clime> Defolos: why not?
14:16:53 <Defolos> clime: because CPE is short staffed as every other it infra team everywhere
14:16:59 <clime> i don't really see why we should go with a decision that was done without any documented reasoning
14:17:01 <Defolos> they've been firefighting for years
14:17:25 <clime> Defolos: yes but i don't think switching to gitlab will really help in that
14:17:30 <Defolos> they are trying to get rid of apps that are not critical to be able to provide a useful service
14:17:47 <Defolos> clime: I don't think either, but I don't know the full picture
14:17:49 * King_InuYasha waves
14:17:52 <clime> we will be solving lots of integration problems instead of pagure problems
14:17:59 <Defolos> yes
14:18:01 <pingou> Defolos: it is what is being investigated
14:18:10 <Defolos> *but* CPE also needs to serve RH's internal needs
14:18:33 <Defolos> and again clime I'm not saying that I like this
14:18:37 <Defolos> I *don't*
14:18:50 <x3mboy> Hi
14:18:53 <Defolos> *but* telling CPE that they should restart is not productive
14:18:54 <x3mboy> .hello2
14:18:56 <zodbot> x3mboy: x3mboy 'Eduard Lucena' <eduardlucena@gmail.com>
14:18:59 <pingou> Defolos: thank you  :)
14:19:02 <mboddu> .hello mohanboddu
14:19:03 <zodbot> mboddu: mohanboddu 'Mohan Boddu' <mboddu@bhujji.com>
14:19:06 <carlwgeorge> clime: there are documented reasons, and there also lots of open questions about integrations and lots of problems that have already been identified.
14:19:37 <siddharthvipul> on that point
14:19:39 <siddharthvipul> .hello2
14:19:40 <zodbot> siddharthvipul: siddharthvipul 'Vipul Siddharth' <siddharthsurfing1@gmail.com>
14:19:41 <Defolos> clime: if you want to keep pagure around: start something like the stewardship SIG, but for pagure
14:19:55 <clime> i don't really see the RH internal see. But to me the Fedora eco-system is separate. Both Fedora and CentOS is using pagure for their dist-git. It seems logical to build on that.
14:20:09 <carlwgeorge> that's why the decision so far is specifically to explore gitlab
14:20:13 <Defolos> the same team has to maintain that
14:20:19 <clime> And if there should be any unification then we would just merge those two. No need to change the platform.
14:20:59 <Defolos> do I hhave to repeat the not productive part?
14:20:59 <clime> carlwgeorge: i didn't see any technical evaluation of pagure vs. dist-git that would summarize the reasons.
14:21:12 <clime> there are requests mentioned but not their analysis
14:21:12 <Defolos> clime: all that you're saying has been said a biliion times
14:21:21 <clime> the whole process was basically closed-source
14:21:30 <Defolos> it ain't helping saying it a bilion times plus one
14:21:52 <clime> Defolos: well, time and place may also matter
14:22:04 <carlwgeorge> rhel has specific needs.  by design centos stream is subject to decisions for rhel.  rhel, centos, and fedora are all part of the same family, and just pretending that fedora is separate doesn't improve anything.
14:22:28 <siddharthvipul> carlwgeorge++
14:22:28 <zodbot> siddharthvipul: Karma for carlwgeorge changed to 1 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:22:35 <carlwgeorge> speaking for myself, i'd love to see pagure gain the features that rhel is looking for.
14:22:56 <Defolos> I'd love to see that too
14:23:10 <siddharthvipul> carlwgeorge: I think we all feel the same way, but we also see the shortcomings presented from all the requirements vs pagure atm
14:23:28 <clime> it's very weird
14:23:37 <clime> i would like to see the technical analysis
14:24:24 <clime> if Fedora is part of the family why the community was not involved?
14:24:44 <carlwgeorge> amoloney: is there a central place community folks can find what's been published so far?  or find more things in the future?
14:25:19 <siddharthvipul> carlwgeorge: there is this wiki page of requirements https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Git_forge_update
14:25:23 <amoloney> we are doing technical analysis with gitlab now specific to Fedoras need  now that we have made the decision to engage with them
14:25:38 <amoloney> and thanks for the link carl!
14:25:45 <amoloney> you folk type fast :)
14:25:48 <cverna> clime: because there was some understanding that this would happen via the council obviously that did not happen and that led to the current situation :)
14:25:52 <carlwgeorge> that was siddharthvipul :D
14:25:54 <carlwgeorge> siddharthvipul++
14:25:54 <zodbot> carlwgeorge: Karma for siddharthvipul1 changed to 11 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:26:06 <amoloney> sorry, Vipul gets the credit :)
14:26:18 <Defolos> getting back to the opensuse heroes reference: do we have something comparable (community helping out with infra) and if not: any plans to start that?
14:26:29 <pingou> I think one thing CPE learned in this process is that Council != Community
14:26:43 <siddharthvipul> we have apprentice program that's basically read access to servers
14:26:48 <cverna> also the dscussion with gitlab will be public in a gitlab ticket, which I hope to open next week
14:26:49 <siddharthvipul> Defolos: let me fetch you the link
14:26:50 <pingou> and while they were told to interact with the Council, they have now realized that this isn't enough
14:26:53 <amoloney> sorry yes I hadnt heard of them specifically but I met with Neal this week and he was telling me about openSUSE
14:27:12 <siddharthvipul> Defolos: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure_Apprentice
14:27:27 <carlwgeorge> fyi amoloney, neal is King_InuYasha in here
14:27:36 <amoloney> and +1 on the council is not the community Pingou :)
14:27:42 <amoloney> oh hey Neal!
14:27:43 <carlwgeorge> or sometimes Conan_Kudo
14:27:44 * siddharthvipul bows to King_InuYasha
14:27:45 <pingou> I believe the CPE management is eager to change that and engage more with the community directly
14:27:59 <Defolos> siddharthvipul: thanks!
14:28:00 <pingou> even if at the end only the Council will be involved in the decisions making processes
14:28:02 * King_InuYasha waves
14:28:06 <King_InuYasha> .hello ngompa
14:28:06 <zodbot> King_InuYasha: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' <ngompa13@gmail.com>
14:28:12 <clime> pingou: well the best way to prove it would to restart the process
14:28:19 <amoloney> that is something I have certainly learned
14:28:27 <Defolos> .hello defolos
14:28:28 <zodbot> Defolos: defolos 'Dan Čermák' <dan.cermak@cgc-instruments.com>
14:28:29 <pingou> clime: where have I heard that before?
14:28:34 <carlwgeorge> ./hello carlwgeorge
14:28:46 <King_InuYasha> amoloney: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
14:28:46 <clime> pingou: idk
14:28:53 <carlwgeorge> .hello carlwgeorge
14:28:54 <zodbot> carlwgeorge: carlwgeorge 'None' <carl@redhat.com>
14:29:34 <pingou> clime: as much as I don't like the decision, I understand it and I don't think re-doing the process would change much of its outcome
14:29:42 <mboddu> clime: Even if we restart the process, are you expecting any other result? It would be a waste of time
14:29:51 <pingou> outside of pissing people off, depressing them, pushing them away
14:30:01 <pingou> and you'll end up with no gitlab and no maintained pagure
14:30:02 <mboddu> Right
14:30:07 <clime> mboddu, pingou: i don't see any of that happening
14:30:24 <pingou> clime: keep doing this and I can certainly tell you that you're pushing me away
14:30:26 <clime> i see a technical, open, objective discussion
14:30:29 <siddharthvipul> clime: we were expecting you wouldn't want to see those happening
14:30:49 <amoloney> clime:  Im really sorry but we are not going to restart the process, but I am glad to have you here and engaging with me on this topic
14:30:55 <carlwgeorge> clime: the right way to think of it is what amoloney said.  the decision at this point is to evaluate gitlab.  the results of that evaluation will determine the final outcome.
14:31:01 <amoloney> the office hours work! :)
14:31:08 <pingou> carlwgeorge++
14:31:08 <zodbot> pingou: Karma for carlwgeorge changed to 2 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:31:22 <mboddu> clime: I think there was a decision taken for better or worse, we have to accept it and find ways to improve on top of that
14:31:31 <Defolos> clime: if you want to save pagure: go and make it better
14:31:49 <carlwgeorge> Defolos++
14:31:49 <zodbot> carlwgeorge: Karma for defolos changed to 5 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:31:59 <mboddu> I sure want pagure to live and prosper, but it is what it is
14:32:12 <clime> Defolos, carlwgeorge: that's a nice goal but quite hard
14:32:12 <siddharthvipul> just to add on what Defolos said, Fedora not using pagure doesn't mean Pagure is not saved (or dead in other meaning)
14:32:14 <Defolos> if it becomes better than gitlab for Fedora, then the decision _could_ change
14:32:32 <Defolos> clime: I know
14:32:37 <Defolos> I certainly know that…
14:33:42 <Defolos> siddharthvipul: unfortunately fedora is currently the main user and if fedora stops using it, a big chunk of the community will go away
14:33:48 <carlwgeorge> clime: yes, improving pagure will be hard.  integrating gitlab for our needs will be hard.  deciding which one is harder is part of the process.
14:34:10 <Defolos> amoloney: you said that you want help with maintaining pagure, so not only infra but code as well?
14:34:22 <clime> carlwgeorge: except you already decided...so part of the past process?
14:34:25 <pingou> Defolos: we'll take all the help we can get :)
14:34:29 <mboddu> Defolos: Yes, any help is appreciated
14:34:32 <pingou> docs, UI, infra, code :)
14:34:45 <siddharthvipul> marketing ;)
14:34:46 <carlwgeorge> clime: again, the decision was to evalute gitlab further.  and i didn't decide anything, don't put it on me.
14:34:46 <cverna> mental health :D
14:34:52 <pingou> cverna: ++
14:34:54 <pingou> cverna==
14:34:56 <pingou> arg!
14:34:58 <pingou> cverna++
14:35:01 <pingou> phew
14:35:05 <cverna> :)
14:35:14 * mboddu hands a new keyboard to pingou :)
14:35:18 <clime> carlwgeorge: right
14:37:04 * pingou takes off his gloves to use mboddu 's given keyboard
14:37:08 <bcotton> amoloney++
14:37:08 <zodbot> bcotton: Karma for amoloney changed to 1 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:37:26 <bcotton> i'm jealous of how many people show up to your office hours :-)
14:37:36 <pingou> bcotton++
14:37:36 <zodbot> pingou: Karma for bcotton changed to 12 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:37:48 <clime> pingou: i don't know why any of what i said should somehow push you away
14:37:49 <carlwgeorge> bcotton: put gitlab in your subject and see what happens :P
14:37:56 <mboddu> bcotton: Do you wanna take on this project? I guess amoloney would be happy to do so... :P
14:37:56 <amoloney> usually theres more swearing :)
14:37:57 <bcotton> carlwgeorge++
14:37:57 <zodbot> bcotton: Karma for carlwgeorge changed to 3 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:37:57 <pingou> clime: because they are not helping
14:38:14 <clime> pingou: alright
14:39:50 <amoloney> carlwgeorge: mboddu bcotton 🤣
14:42:04 <Defolos> amoloney: you already said this, but please next time if you have to make such a big decision: go to the community first and listen to folks
14:42:36 <siddharthvipul> Defolos: and amoloney and others also said that the biggest lesson learnt was council is not community, we get that
14:42:44 <siddharthvipul> we == (everyone in CPE and the management)
14:42:48 <amoloney> absolutely. I do stand by that we did, but certainly not enough
14:43:26 <Defolos> siddharthvipul: just stating that this whole process made me feel very powerless and ignored
14:44:03 <Defolos> but the past weeks at showed me a different POV and I see why you have to go down this route
14:44:06 <siddharthvipul> Defolos: sorry that you felt that way.. I really am (and again, I have said this earlier to you personally) that CPE is sorry that you feel this way as well
14:44:16 <mboddu> Defolos: Sorry about that, but we learn from our mistakes and move forward. And, we definitely learned one this time
14:44:18 <amoloney> I really am sorry you felt that way :(
14:44:46 <Defolos> siddharthvipul: mboddu: amoloney: glad to hear that
14:44:50 <King_InuYasha> amoloney: in general, my feeling is that I felt like we as the pagure community didn't have an opportunity to respond to deficiencies as other stakeholders indicated
14:45:10 <King_InuYasha> it's hard to feel like there was a fair footing because of that
14:45:52 <King_InuYasha> and I'm saying this because I'm assuming there *were* deficiencies indicated by other stakeholders
14:46:03 <King_InuYasha> I don't actually know, because there's no particular information on that publicly available
14:48:10 <pingou> the one big deficiencie that pagure has is: we maintain it and we isn't a full dedicated company
14:48:34 <pingou> as much as I like working on pagure, I'm not gitlab inc (or microsoft for github)
14:49:11 <pingou> (and atm, not convinced I can fund a pagure inc company :-p)
14:49:35 <mboddu> pingou: If you want, we can register pingou inc for you ( I think it only takes couple of hundred dollars, if I am not wrong) :)
14:50:27 <pingou> mboddu: you're just want to make my taxes more interesting don't you?
14:50:38 <Defolos> pingou: I'll throw in a few bucks as well :-P
14:50:44 <siddharthvipul> pingou: and you thought he gave you a keyboard to type here?
14:50:46 <Defolos> just to make your accountant a bit richer
14:50:53 <mboddu> pingou: And to make it more interesting, I will register it in US :D
14:51:13 <pingou> mboddu: such a good friend!
14:51:22 <Defolos> but back to topic: anyone would like to comment on what Neal said?
14:51:33 <amoloney> One of the main drivers when making the decision to go engage with GitLab is to try to take some hosting pressure off the team long term
14:51:46 <King_InuYasha> pingou: I'd throw money at it :)
14:52:01 <pingou> well, I guess it's time that I ask for a raise :D
14:52:05 <cverna> amoloney1: on a different topic, I think this needs to be an initiative looking at the amount of work needed (https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/issue/8370)
14:52:14 <mboddu> pingou: Haha :)
14:52:23 <cverna> amoloney1: we can sync to draft a project brief
14:52:52 <amoloney> damn you cverna  🤣
14:52:58 <pingou> cverna: +1, and there will be some hardware requirement for this
14:53:00 <amoloney> but sure :)
14:53:09 <pingou> (the question becoming: do we have it?)
14:53:34 <amoloney> and the hits just keep on comin'...
14:53:40 <pingou> only 6 minutes left!
14:54:31 <cverna> yeah I have a meeting to run in 6 mins :)
14:54:51 <pingou> no more heat for amoloney ?
14:55:04 <pingou> or a good 90s hit maybe?
14:55:24 <Defolos> would you folks mind sharing the major shortcommings of pagure beside having to host it ourselves?
14:55:27 <cverna> when can we have these office hours on zoom ?
14:55:34 <pingou> cverna: no!
14:55:37 <Defolos> cverna: no, no zoom!
14:55:40 <amoloney> you have 5 mins left to light me on fire :)
14:55:44 <cverna> haha :)
14:56:01 <pingou> amoloney: I think cverna just made a good move to this
14:56:02 <mboddu> jitsi :)
14:56:12 <Defolos> +1 on jitsi
14:56:23 <Defolos> anyway, shortcommings of pagure pretty please?
14:56:37 <amoloney> Defolos: we will certainly
14:56:39 <mboddu> amoloney: ^ ?
14:56:42 <siddharthvipul> if jitsi worked that is, if we keep the number of participants less than 5-6 then Jitsi
14:56:43 <mboddu> Oh nvm
14:57:08 <amoloney> happy to post them to the fedora wiki git forge page that VIPUL made :)
14:57:17 <cverna> oh also if you want to know what is coming up in the Fedora and CentOS infra -->
14:57:22 <cverna> https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/whats-coming-up-next-in-fedora-and-centos-infrastructure/
14:57:23 <carlwgeorge> amoloney: i think that would work well as extra columns on the chart here https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Git_forge_update
14:57:42 <amoloney> next week though guys, juts for expectation management! :)
14:57:51 <siddharthvipul> carlwgeorge: yes, that has been the plan with the wiki page, one page of truth
14:58:11 <amoloney> 2 minute warning
14:58:23 <siddharthvipul> amoloney: just saying, need help with the wiki page, you know where to find me :)
14:58:36 <Defolos> so shortcommings will be put into the wiki?
14:58:55 <amoloney> oh I have you on speed dial siddharthvipul  :)
14:59:21 <carlwgeorge> since the requirements are already listed there, i think it would make sense to add "pagure" and "gitlab" columns, which would indicate which one is missing what
14:59:24 <pingou> siddharthvipul: ready for the 3am calls to debug wiki table syntax? :D
14:59:45 <siddharthvipul> pingou: :nervous laugh:
14:59:53 <cverna> Defolos: see the bullet points in https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/making-a-git-forge-decision/
15:00:05 <amoloney> carlwgeorge:  yeah that is what  I was thinking of doing, Defolos does this work for you?
15:00:11 <cverna> Defolos: that sounds more like the advantages of GitLab
15:00:58 * pingou doesn't know if the subgroups permissions actually make sense for dist-git
15:01:16 * cverna neither
15:01:25 * siddharthvipul doesn't know what it is
15:01:28 <siddharthvipul> so
15:01:29 <cverna> ok we need to start the next meeting
15:01:32 <mboddu> I am not sure if we know all the short comings of gitlab yet, but sure :)
15:01:33 <pingou> this is where the "give us requirements for a git forge" and the dist-git usage are not aligning
15:01:43 <amoloney> And thats time! Thanks for joining todays office hours all, I hope you found it useful - I certainly did! It was great to chat to you and Im looking forward to next weeks slot. Take care all! :)
15:01:54 <cverna> #endmeeting
15:01:57 <carlwgeorge> thanks amoloney!
15:01:58 <Defolos> bye y'all
15:02:00 <siddharthvipul> amoloney++ thank you for the office hour, hoping to see more of these
15:02:00 <zodbot> siddharthvipul: Karma for amoloney changed to 2 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:02:02 <Defolos> thanks everyone
15:02:03 <amoloney> #endmeeting