14:00:43 <bcotton> #startmeeting Council (2020-06-24)
14:00:44 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jun 24 14:00:43 2020 UTC.
14:00:44 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
14:00:44 <zodbot> The chair is bcotton. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:00:44 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:00:44 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2020-06-24)'
14:00:45 <bcotton> #meetingname council
14:00:45 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council'
14:00:47 <bcotton> #chair bookwar dcantrell jonatoni riecatnor dgilmore mattdm bcotton pbrobinson asamalik sumantrom
14:00:47 <zodbot> Current chairs: asamalik bcotton bookwar dcantrell dgilmore jonatoni mattdm pbrobinson riecatnor sumantrom
14:00:48 <bcotton> #topic Introductions, Welcomes
14:00:49 <asamalik> .hello2
14:00:50 <zodbot> asamalik: asamalik 'Adam Samalik' <asamalik@redhat.com>
14:00:55 <dcantrell> .hello2
14:00:56 <zodbot> dcantrell: dcantrell 'David Cantrell' <dcantrell@redhat.com>
14:01:00 <mattdm> .hello2
14:01:05 <zodbot> mattdm: mattdm 'Matthew Miller' <mattdm@mattdm.org>
14:01:35 <nirik> morning
14:02:09 <riecatnor> .hello2
14:02:10 <zodbot> riecatnor: riecatnor 'None' <mnordin@redhat.com>
14:02:21 <bookwar> .hello2
14:02:22 <zodbot> bookwar: bookwar 'Aleksandra Fedorova' <alpha@bookwar.info>
14:02:24 <mattdm> Good morning (and etc) everyone!
14:02:45 <dcantrell> good morning
14:02:59 <asamalik> good etc!
14:03:49 <riecatnor> hullo!
14:04:05 <bcotton> alrighty, let's do this
14:04:11 <mattdm> yes!
14:04:15 <bcotton> #topic Today's agenda
14:04:16 <bcotton> #info Comings and goings
14:04:18 <bcotton> #info Project directory
14:04:19 <bcotton> #info Diversity & Inclusion ticket 135
14:04:21 <bcotton> #info Your topics here!
14:04:43 <bcotton> #topic Comings and goings
14:04:44 <bcotton> #info psabata's time as Engineering representative has ended
14:04:46 <bcotton> #info dcantrell is the new Engineering representative
14:04:47 <bcotton> #info till's time as elected representative has ended
14:04:49 <bcotton> #info bookwar is the new elected representative
14:04:50 <bcotton> #info sumantrom's time as Mindshare representative is ending, selection of his replacement is ongoing
14:05:01 <bookwar> o/
14:05:02 <dgilmore> hi bcotton
14:05:11 <bookwar> hi everyone
14:05:26 <riecatnor> welcome bookwar
14:05:30 <riecatnor> welcome dcantrell
14:05:32 <bcotton> welcome bookwar and dcantrell!
14:05:39 <dcantrell> thanks!
14:05:42 <bookwar> my goal for next couple of weeks is to understand what council actually  does, so please expect stupid questions :)
14:05:47 <asamalik> welcome bcotton and dcantrell ! \o/
14:06:01 <asamalik> nope, bookwar I mean
14:06:03 <bcotton> contyk++ till++ sumantrom++ so long and thanks for all the fish
14:06:06 <zodbot> bcotton: Karma for till changed to 1 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:06:09 <zodbot> bcotton: Karma for sumantrom changed to 7 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:06:24 <mattdm> bookwar: that's a good goal!
14:06:31 <riecatnor> contyk++ till++ sumantrom++
14:06:31 <zodbot> riecatnor: Karma for psabata changed to 11 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:06:34 <zodbot> riecatnor: Karma for till changed to 2 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:06:38 <bcotton> bookwar: let me know when you figure it out ;-)
14:06:48 <mattdm> thank you sumantrom, till, and psabata!
14:07:20 <mattdm> This brings up the thing we talked about at the last Council face to face
14:07:28 <mattdm> (remember face to faces? ahhhh.)
14:07:37 <bcotton> what are faces?
14:07:38 <mattdm> Namely: "council-buddies"
14:08:08 <asamalik> bcotton: those things in mirrors that grin weirdly
14:08:35 <mattdm> That is, every new council member should get someone assigned to help them figure out what the council is all about
14:08:55 <mattdm> As I recall, we almost said "mentor" but that seemed too strong
14:09:21 <mattdm> 1. Should we do that now?2
14:09:29 <mattdm> 2. bookwar, dcantrell would that be helpful?
14:09:36 <mattdm> 3. Volunteers?
14:09:49 <dcantrell> I would find it helpful, yes
14:10:31 <bookwar> if someone volunteers to have an informall call to discuss council topics - it would be nice. If not - i'll just bother random people anyway
14:10:38 <sumantro> Thanks to all the people, who supported me ! :D
14:10:52 <sumantro> and for all the work and fun :)
14:10:56 <mattdm> sumantro++
14:10:56 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for sumantro changed to 4 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:11:30 * bcotton volunteers
14:11:36 <mattdm> bcotton++
14:11:58 <mattdm> anyone else? if not, it's me :)
14:12:07 <bookwar> bcotton is a default volunteer in Fedora :)
14:12:18 <mattdm> yes, I volunteer him for things all the time!
14:12:35 * bcotton is very bad at saying no to more work :-)
14:12:46 <mattdm> okay, it's me.
14:13:04 <mattdm> https://justflipacoin.com/
14:13:18 <mattdm> says bcotton - dcantrell, mattdm - bookwar :)
14:13:31 <bcotton> #action bcotton to help onboard dcantrell
14:13:39 <bcotton> #action mattdm to help onboard bookwar
14:13:42 <mattdm> bcotton++
14:13:51 <bcotton> mattdm: we should compare notes afterward and turn it into something reproducible
14:13:54 <mattdm> #info need more cookies for bcotton
14:14:10 * bcotton has a pack of Chips Ahoy in the kitchen
14:14:21 <bookwar> bcotton: that would be my first assignment probably
14:14:23 <mattdm> bookwar: find time on my calendar tomorrow, friday, or early next week?
14:14:27 <bcotton> bookwar++
14:14:27 <zodbot> bcotton: Karma for bookwar changed to 2 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:14:33 <bookwar> mattdm: will do
14:14:36 <bcotton> okay, shall we move on to the next topic then?
14:14:54 <mattdm> sounds good to me. what's the next topic?
14:14:58 <asamalik> oh, I'd be happy to help, too!
14:15:08 <bcotton> #topic Project directory
14:15:09 <bcotton> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/295
14:15:21 <bcotton> asamalik has been furiously working away in the ticket in the last hour or so
14:15:31 <asamalik> ha, and here's my chance I guess
14:15:32 <asamalik> yep!
14:16:24 <mattdm> asamalik :)
14:16:25 <asamalik> I figured out how to store reusable data in the docs, and render it in multiple places multiple ways
14:16:32 <bcotton> asamalik++
14:16:58 <asamalik> I believe I'll finally get it done this week
14:18:19 <bcotton> hooray!
14:18:19 <mattdm> asamalik that sounds useful. is there a document for how to do that? :)
14:19:03 <asamalik> mattdm: in the ticket right now, it's all very fresh as bcotton has pointed out :)
14:19:24 <asamalik> but yeah, I could add it to the docs for the docs part
14:19:47 <riecatnor> asamalik++
14:19:52 <bcotton> anything else on this topic?
14:19:55 <asamalik> here I mean: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora-docs/contributing/
14:20:01 <mattdm> asamalik++
14:20:01 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for asamalik changed to 9 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:20:51 <asamalik> all from my side!
14:20:58 <bcotton> okay, next!
14:21:03 <bcotton> #topic Diversity & Inclusion ticket 135
14:21:04 <bcotton> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-diversity/issue/135
14:21:11 <bcotton> riecatnor: the floor is yours
14:21:31 <riecatnor> ok :)
14:21:54 <riecatnor> I would request council members read this ticket and comment
14:22:12 <riecatnor> D&I and Mindshare are both asking for the Councils input on this
14:22:18 <pbrobinson> OK
14:22:42 <pbrobinson> that's a long read, will try to get to it after all my meetings today
14:23:08 <riecatnor> we don't have another business meeting for some time.. and I do see the need for swift responses
14:23:11 <bcotton> riecatnor: do you have a deadline?
14:23:34 <riecatnor> I think a week is reasonable for folks. Please review by July 1st.
14:23:44 <riecatnor> sound ok? doable?
14:23:57 <mattdm> riecatnor: just to have us individually weigh in, you mean?
14:24:03 <bcotton> #info Council members are requested to provide feedback in the D&I ticket by 1 July
14:24:07 <asamalik> ack
14:24:21 <bookwar> shouldn't we review the actual text by that time?
14:24:30 <riecatnor> Well, we could start a mailing list thread to discuss if it makes more sense
14:24:56 <bookwar> if we just agree on the idea by July 1st, then the actual text will probably take a week more
14:25:11 <riecatnor> Agreed, bookwar
14:25:13 <mattdm> I think it's okay to discuss there I'm just trying to figure out the intended outcome
14:25:38 <mattdm> riecatnor: you want me to drop in the ticket what we said yesterday about surveys?
14:25:54 <riecatnor> mattdm, I don't want to distract that thread further.
14:25:56 <riecatnor> I think the discussion is starting to get away from the topic: a short letter requesting that the fedora council make a statement about racism against black people and offer of support to black members of the community who may be having a hard time right now. Could a plan be made for such a letter to get written with a time frame for it being sent?
14:25:59 <riecatnor> this is the heart of the request.
14:26:10 <mattdm> Specifically: Red Hat legal has had some changes, and now is apparently not as frightened by surveys
14:26:27 <bcotton> so wait. are they asking council to write the letter or they asking to write the letter for council to approve
14:26:38 <bcotton> because those are two very distinct requests
14:27:15 <riecatnor> jflory says: The Fedora D&I Team writes a "Letter of Collaboration" to the Fedora Council to come forward and make a statement of support and action for Black Lives Matter on behalf of Fedora Leadership.
14:27:32 <riecatnor> so.. unclear?
14:28:04 <riecatnor> I think it should come from Fedora Council & D&I together.
14:28:18 <mattdm> I would also like to have some real actions to go along with any letter. Talk is -- well, not actually cheap. But insufficient.
14:28:33 <bcotton> my read is that they're asking for council's input to frame the draft they'll write
14:29:04 <bcotton> yes, it should come from council and d&i, but as mattdm can attest, the name on the statement doesn't always match who wrote it
14:29:20 <riecatnor> bcotton, fair ;)
14:29:47 <mattdm> I'll sign anything bcotton puts in front of me!
14:29:49 <bcotton> iow, if we want the council to draft something, be prepared to wait a long time. if someone wants to write a draft for council to edit and approve, that's much faster. and also means there's not a lot of action required of the council until such a draft appears
14:30:11 <dgilmore> bcotton: indeed
14:30:35 <riecatnor> I do think having us look and say "yes this is a good idea go ahead" is what they actually want
14:31:05 <riecatnor> and I can write a comment about our discussion. I do think its important for the Council members to be aware of the different things being said there.
14:31:07 <bookwar> as sensitive as this topic is, it is hard to commit to/approve something, without actually reading what we are approving
14:31:13 <mattdm> Let's do it this way. Everyone who is not Marie or me tell Marie and me your thoughts. We will synthesize them for the ticket.
14:31:24 <bcotton> riecatnor: so they're asking for permission to write a draft?
14:31:36 <mattdm> That way it isn't just a big free-for-all of further discussion
14:31:38 <bcotton> bookwar++
14:32:11 <mattdm> does that make sense?
14:32:15 <riecatnor> bcotton, I want to say this sensitively. Sometimes people just need leadership to say ok, proceed.
14:32:34 <bcotton> understood, just trying to make sure i understand
14:32:46 <riecatnor> I do think peoples individual opinions here should be taken into account, which is why I am +1 to mattdm idea
14:32:48 <bcotton> well that was an awkward statement. anyway
14:32:58 <bcotton> #undo
14:32:58 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: INFO by bcotton at 14:24:03 : Council members are requested to provide feedback in the D&I ticket by 1 July
14:33:41 <bcotton> okay, so. is there anyone opposed to giving D&I permission to pursue this (not asking for pre-approval of any text, just "yes, write a draft and let's see how it goes")?
14:33:42 <riecatnor> I will comment on the ticket something to the extent of what we said here? We would like to review a draft
14:34:14 <bcotton> giving permission isn't even the right phrasing. more of "yes, please do this and come to us when you have something to look at"
14:34:20 <riecatnor> yes, that
14:34:52 <asamalik> yep, that sounds good, and I'm absolutely not opposed
14:35:14 <bcotton> so hearing no objections, we'll move on to the request
14:35:21 <mattdm> riecatnor yes.
14:35:34 <riecatnor> sounds good, commenting now.
14:35:44 <bcotton> ? #info Council members are requested to provide input on the content of the proposed letter to mattdm and riecatnor by 1 July
14:36:12 <bcotton> does this seem reasonable to everyone? (riecatnor and bookwar in particular, since you both brought up concerns about action and timing)
14:36:49 <riecatnor> Well, I think you were right. maybe there isn't much to do beyond just reading and being aware
14:36:57 <riecatnor> so that when they statement comes, review time will be quick
14:37:22 <bookwar> bcotton: ok for me
14:37:37 <bcotton> #info Council members are requested to provide input on the content of the proposed letter to mattdm and riecatnor by 1 July
14:37:54 <bcotton> if people don't have input, they can wait for the draft :-)
14:38:21 <mattdm> yeah.
14:38:37 <bcotton> anything else on this topic for now?
14:38:39 <riecatnor> yep
14:38:40 <riecatnor> nope
14:39:33 <bcotton> #topic Next meeting
14:39:35 <bcotton> #info The next Fedora Council meeting is 8 July. It will be a video meeting featuring rdieter from Fedora KDE
14:39:36 <bcotton> #info The next regular business meeting will be 22 July
14:39:59 <bcotton> #topic Do we have anything to announce?
14:40:01 <bcotton> #info This is a regular check to make sure we're communicating to the contributor (via CommBlog) and user (via Magazine) communities
14:40:17 <mattdm> hopefully I will have an exciting Lenovo announcement soon
14:40:21 <mattdm> but I do not right now
14:41:21 <bcotton> sounds like there's nothing else
14:41:34 <bookwar> if i want to add topic to the next meeting, what should I do? file a ticket or just ask bcotton?
14:41:42 <bcotton> bookwar: yes!
14:41:44 <riecatnor> hi! I remembered some annoucements
14:41:48 <riecatnor> announcements*
14:42:16 <bcotton> bookwar: if it requires a decision, definitely open a ticket. if it's more of a discussion, you can do either (or start a thread on council-discuss). if you're not sure, ping me :-)
14:42:21 <bcotton> riecatnor: ack. stand by
14:42:48 <bookwar> bcotton: ok, i might have one for the next regular business thing, regarding third-party CI. So i'll reach out to you
14:43:00 <bcotton> bookwar: sounds good
14:43:03 <bcotton> riecatnor: go ahead
14:43:05 <riecatnor> Basically, we have chosen dates and a platform for Nest with Fedora and I am working on the other details now. August 6th-9th. We will be using Hopin, as the Open Source Program Office within Red Hat has a contract that we can use that will make the option very affordable.
14:43:19 <Son_Goku> yay!
14:43:42 <mattdm> riecatnor++
14:43:42 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for riecatnor changed to 10 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:43:50 <Conan_Kudo> riecatnor++
14:43:50 <zodbot> Conan_Kudo: Karma for riecatnor changed to 11 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:43:54 <bcotton> #info Nest With Fedora will be August 6th-9th using the Hopin platform provided by Red Hat's Open Source Program Office
14:44:03 <riecatnor> It would be cool for folks to keep an eye out for potential keynotes. Topics I was thinking of include diversity, resilience, teamwork
14:44:06 <bcotton> riecatnor: commblog post coming? ;-)
14:44:08 <asamalik> riecatnor++
14:44:08 <zodbot> asamalik: Karma for riecatnor changed to 12 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:44:11 <riecatnor> keynote speakers**
14:44:20 <riecatnor> bcotton, why do you torture me so lol. yes! I will do it
14:44:54 <riecatnor> If anyone else has some topic ideas for keynotes, or just speakers you have seen and loved, please feel free to send my way :)
14:44:56 <bookwar> do we have deadlines for CfP?
14:45:07 <Son_Goku> deadlines, themes, etc. would be helpful
14:45:18 <riecatnor> bookwar, not quite. these are the details i speak of ;)
14:46:03 <riecatnor> I have nothing else on Nest for the moment
14:46:12 <riecatnor> I have another thing, not an announcement, but a quick topic to discuss
14:46:23 <bcotton> any other announcements before we move to open floor?
14:47:04 <bcotton> sounds like no
14:47:07 <bcotton> #topic Open floor
14:47:10 <bcotton> riecatnor: go ahead
14:48:08 <riecatnor> I wanted to bring awareness to Code of Conduct within Fedora. The reason being, we have experienced unprecedented numbers of incidents. This work has taken up a lot of mine and mattdms time. I was mentioning this to bcotton, and he said there was a decision once upon a time to report that back to the Council.
14:48:52 <riecatnor> I strongly believe the reason we are experiencing these is because of the chaos and unfamiliarity of the world we are living in. Pandemic fatigue, if you will, is effecting everyone, and certainly our community.
14:49:29 <riecatnor> So, I ask, is a report needed and wanted? How often should that be done? What should be included?
14:49:31 <dcantrell> I agree with that--pandemic fatigue.  not an excuse, but as a cause of behavior changes among everyone
14:50:06 <mattdm> Yeah. Everyone is super-stressed out and it comes out in a lot of ways.
14:50:31 <bcotton> i think a monthly report of tickets opened and the general disposition (e.g. not a violation, person suspended from mailing list for a month, person kicked out of the project, etc) without identifying information sent to council-discuss would be appropriate
14:51:15 <bcotton> in general, i think we want to avoid naming (or implying) parties in a CoC report, but we do want the fact that we enforce our CoC to be visible
14:51:19 <riecatnor> Does monthly seem like it could be identifying the folks in the incidents? Confidentiality is of utmost concern
14:51:36 <riecatnor> Quarterly?
14:51:49 <bcotton> considering i didn't even know it was taking up so much time until you told me yesterday, i don't think that's a major concern
14:51:58 <riecatnor> Fair enough.
14:52:04 <bcotton> i'd be okay with quarterly, but no longer than that
14:53:04 <riecatnor> Ok, I need to work this into my schedule. I think if I make a template, should be no issue to do it monthly.
14:53:21 <bcotton> one advantage to monthly is that it gives us a sense of whether things are getting bad and thus giving us the opportunity to be on the look out and try to descalate issues before they rise to CoC violations (in cases where that's possible)
14:53:42 <mattdm> true
14:54:00 <dcantrell> ignatenkobrain++
14:54:00 <zodbot> dcantrell: Karma for ignatenkobrain changed to 16 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:54:07 <dcantrell> these damn windows
14:54:12 <riecatnor> lol :)
14:54:21 <Son_Goku> XD
14:54:44 <riecatnor> that's all I got.
14:54:54 <dcantrell> really, concurrent meetings in irc is beyond frustrating
14:55:05 <bcotton> dcantrell: i feel your pain. i was in three at the beginning of the hour :-(
14:55:26 <bcotton> anyone else? i have two things but they'll both become mailing list threads anyway
14:55:37 <asamalik> bcotton: but you're a chair, that doesn't count :P
14:55:58 <asamalik> ..just as one
14:56:58 <bcotton> asamalik: do you have something for open floor or did i misunderstand your last comment?
14:57:34 <mattdm> uh, is FESCo now at this same time?
14:57:36 * asamalik was just attempting to make a joke, no other topic for open floor from me
14:57:39 <dcantrell> mattdm: yes
14:58:00 <mattdm> that seems like a particularly bad conflict. should we look at rescheduling this?
14:58:18 <dcantrell> mattdm: yes, because with fesco it's basically a no go.  we moved from Mon to Wed at this slot for the new members
14:58:25 <bcotton> mattdm: we're already working on that :-)
14:58:29 <mattdm> bcotton: ok :)
14:58:39 <dcantrell> mattdm: moving anywhere else is a conflict, so if the council can move that would be very much appreciated
14:58:53 <bcotton> okay, it sounds like there's nothing else for open floor, i'll post my things to the mailing list
14:58:55 <mattdm> *nod*
14:58:58 <mattdm> thanks bcotton!
14:59:00 <mattdm> thanks all!
14:59:04 <bcotton> thanks everyone, and welcome again to our new members!
14:59:17 <dcantrell> bcotton++
14:59:17 <zodbot> dcantrell: Karma for bcotton changed to 22 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:59:21 <bcotton> #endmeeting