17:03:47 #startmeeting Council (2020-08-20) 17:03:47 Meeting started Thu Aug 20 17:03:47 2020 UTC. 17:03:47 This meeting is logged and archived in a public location. 17:03:47 The chair is bcotton. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 17:03:47 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 17:03:47 The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2020-08-20)' 17:03:48 #meetingname council 17:03:48 The meeting name has been set to 'council' 17:03:50 #chair bookwar dcantrell jwf riecatnor dgilmore mattdm bcotton pbrobinson asamalik x3mboy 17:03:50 Current chairs: asamalik bcotton bookwar dcantrell dgilmore jwf mattdm pbrobinson riecatnor x3mboy 17:03:51 #topic Introductions, Welcomes 17:03:57 .hello2 17:03:58 x3mboy: x3mboy 'Eduard Lucena' 17:04:08 .hello2 17:04:10 riecatnor: riecatnor 'None' 17:04:10 hola amigos 17:04:15 * jwf waves with his other arm 17:04:16 hullo! 17:04:24 hello everyone! 17:04:47 .hello ngompa 17:04:48 King_InuYasha: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' 17:04:55 #topic Today's agenda 17:04:57 #info Fedora Legal update 17:04:58 * King_InuYasha is just passing by and attending 17:04:58 #info Project directory 17:05:00 #info Nest feedback and discussion 17:05:01 #info Your topics here! 17:05:05 * bcotton waves at King_InuYasha 17:05:16 a quick one -- should we move to #fedora-meeting ? :) 17:05:32 if it is available yes 17:05:38 No preference! 17:05:41 no, not a topic :-) 17:05:49 i'm bringing that up in the next meeting boilerplate 17:05:50 lol :) 17:05:54 We are not in #fedora-meeting???? 17:06:03 * King_InuYasha wonders when #fedora-meeting-4 will be used 17:06:18 King_InuYasha: Oh it has :P 17:06:21 bcotton: Agenda LGTM 17:06:24 So serious suggestion... 17:06:32 I have no preference 17:06:45 So, if we move, so let's go 17:07:02 bcotton: do we want "next steps on next objectives"? 17:07:46 mattdm: that sounds vauge. let's see how quickly we get through what we have and if we have time, we'll put that on the board? 17:08:30 #topic Fedora Legal update 17:08:32 #info spot has left Red Hat, so we need a new legal liaison 17:08:33 #info bcotton will handle this in the short-/medium-term 17:08:35 #action bcotton to update the legal@fedoraproject.org alias 17:08:39 (i can less vague it. but when we get there.) 17:08:41 i don't think there's much more to say here, just noting it for the record 17:08:49 #action bcotton. 17:09:07 I mean, thanks Ben. I appreciate it! 17:09:14 there's a person in Red Hat who i will be dragging in to help with a lot of the license-related stuff, but we haven't worked out the specifics of the plan yet 17:09:29 mattdm++ 17:09:29 dgilmore: Karma for mattdm changed to 5 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 17:09:36 How is the new logo situation now that we have this issue in legal? 17:09:38 and for the record: this does not mean i'll take over chromium and texlive packaging ;-) 17:09:39 bcotton++ 17:09:50 bcotton: they come hand in hand 17:09:56 x3mboy: duffy is still working on it with legal. 17:10:12 #action bcotton to take over texlive and chromiumn packaging 17:10:17 #undo 17:10:17 Removing item from minutes: ACTION by dgilmore at 17:10:12 : bcotton to take over texlive and chromiumn packaging 17:10:18 #action mattdm to check back with mo about where she's at with addressing the lawyers' concerns 17:10:24 lol 17:10:42 lolol dgilmore you are mean 17:10:43 Imagine you need to package texlive-* 17:10:45 bcotton: 17:10:46 sorry, dgilmore, you've been overruled 17:11:31 On to Project Directory? 17:11:33 hokay, next! 17:11:47 Jinx 17:11:57 #topic Project directory 17:11:59 #info The prototype is approved and merged 17:12:08 #action dcantrell to begin populating Engineering teams in the directory 17:12:10 #action x3mboy to begin populating Mindshare teams in the directory 17:12:25 Noted! 17:12:33 woot 17:12:43 * King_InuYasha is excited for the project directory 17:12:43 which is to say: in the council-docs repo, right? 17:12:47 so we'd talked a long time ago about making it a part of the project schedule so that we remember to do it 17:12:50 mattdm: yes 17:13:18 we're a little past branch day for F33, and branch day seems like as good an arbitrary point as any 17:13:34 anyone have better suggestions on when this regular task should happen? 17:13:35 Are there docs about how to use it or how it works? 17:14:07 * jwf is thinking we are putting a looooooot of work on two people 17:14:07 jwf https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/295#comment-660564 17:14:11 #Link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/295#comment-660564 17:14:16 It might make more sense to make this a little more decentralized in my opinion 17:14:38 jwf decentralized wasn't really working. no ownership, no action 17:15:09 and reps can certainly delegate subsections down the chain where there's a chain to delegate down 17:15:22 Or ask others in FESCo and Mindshare to help 17:15:24 But we don't have docs or explainers about how to add to the directory? 17:15:47 Yeah I am just concerned this is putting a ton of work on just two people, if every team gets a page 17:16:02 asamalik: you around? 17:16:12 I don't know how to use a DE anymore xD 17:16:12 Building for outreach and encouraging people to add their own stuff will help us collect active teams and probably collect more meaningful data 17:16:29 I suppose it wouldn't hurt to turn the comments in the ticket into a doc in the Council Policies page 17:16:31 i.e. a specific member of a team summarizing something vs. a single person trying to document 20-40 teams, maybe 17:16:39 mattdm: +1 17:16:47 I have a proposal 17:16:59 So, for the ambassador revamp. We have a step to document the current roll and responsibilities of the mindshare teams 17:17:14 What if we schedule a "Council docs' VFAD" 17:17:18 ? 17:17:38 jwf the reps don't have to generate the content, just make sure it is updated. whether they write it themselves or say "hey lead of $team, please provide this info" 17:17:42 For the mindshare side, we could add the directory task to at least get it started nicely 17:17:43 when we say engineering team we mean FESCo alone, not all SIGs, right? 17:17:47 it's an accountability task 17:18:09 riecatnor: Ooohh that is a great idea too, and ties in nicely to that existing work 17:18:24 bookwar[m]: no, it's all of the team's that fall under the engineering umbrella 17:18:26 x3mboy: I like the idea -- but maybe a new topic worthy of a new ticket? 17:19:03 jwf, sure, just testing the water 17:19:05 #action x3mboy file ticket to schedule council docs vfad :) 17:19:14 Cool! 17:19:36 bcotton: I feel like we might be going down the same path as the Council status updates. It is just a lot of work we are asking for, and we are not involving the people who are leading the work 17:19:46 I think it is important to consider who want to engage long-term with this process 17:20:01 bcotton: ok, this i somehow missed then. I though we were talking about main teams who have representatives in Council and the objectives 17:20:12 the people who were responsible at the time were involved 17:20:24 I was also reading the Engineering work as inclusive of SIGs 17:20:27 do you propose to remove Fedora SIG page in wiki and move it under council docs? 17:20:37 uhh 17:20:48 jwf: I'm open to suggestions. The original idea was Hubs, and then to make use of Taiga, both of which did not really work. 17:20:54 bookwar[m]: yes. 17:21:10 so then, SIGs need to be blessed by Council to exist with that change? 17:21:16 King_InuYasha: no 17:21:19 historically, SIGs were freely created... 17:21:29 bookwar[m]: That page is a great example of why we need this. 17:21:32 ISV Sig? 17:21:39 * King_InuYasha snorts 17:21:40 Mobility SIG? 17:21:44 that one lives now 17:21:48 mattdm: I think about your innovation curve you have presented before, where everything is a little awful before it gets better. I think we need to stick with a single process and build up really good docs. But since we have bounced between Hubs, and Taiga, and now something else, it makes it hard to build up docs 17:21:48 Red Team? 17:21:50 I think we need to review again the process 17:21:54 And for people to learn how to do these things 17:22:01 I don't even know what SSCG is 17:22:12 jwf: taiga failed for technical reasons 17:22:15 sgallagh's cert signing tool has a sig? 17:22:22 There is a mentorship cycle we follow with older folks in the community with newer folks -- and that takes time to catch up, every time we change platforms or things 17:22:38 SIG is a random group of people, which have their own idea, they don't request anything from Council, so i am not sure why council wants to oversee them 17:22:57 bcotton: Lesson learned. So now we have the team directory, which honestly I like a lot! 17:23:10 bookwar[m]: What we want is to make sure there's a current list of actually active SIGs. 17:23:16 bookwar[m], it cool be because the work of a SIG can be converted into a product we offer, like a lab or a spin 17:23:18 Huh? 17:23:32 I don't want to introduce heavy oversight, but ... "is this active"? doesn't seem like much of an ask 17:23:32 We just need to plant the seed and give it enough time to grow. Help train people about it, tell people about it on the CommBlog / mailing lists, shoulder-tap people to please add a profile for their team 17:23:34 We talked at face2face about objective leads who need to report their status, so that council is aware of what is going on with the objective and if it needs help 17:23:45 jwf: yes? 17:23:48 jwf that's literally what we're trying to get started right now 17:23:53 *A note, I have asked the co-leads to include gathering the team directory info for mindshare into our plan. 17:23:56 mattdm, e.g. IRC sig? 17:24:02 Plan for ambassadors* 17:24:21 bcotton do you know the status of the commblog post asamalik is on the hook for from the last meeting? 17:24:54 mattdm: the only one he was on the hook for was related to the minimization objective 17:25:30 So, if someone else could put asamalik's Pagure comment into a pretty Council doc, I could take an action to write a CommBlog post for it and work with x3mboy / Fedora Marketing on social media outreach 17:25:49 bcotton: ah I had it in my mind he'd volunteered that 17:25:50 mattdm: I don't think we can do any SIG migration stuff without actually asking the opinion from SIG owners 17:26:07 I guess the thing I want is a quick, fast link to give someone when they ask, "Oh cool -- how do I get $TEAM on there?" 17:26:14 bookwar[m]: I don't understand what you mean by "sig migration" 17:26:29 The wiki page isn't, like, the organizational home of SIGs. It's just a wiki page 17:26:30 migration of SIG data from wiki to council-docs 17:26:54 SIGs can certainly keep using the wiki for their own docs 17:27:05 We are discussing a directory only, ,correct? 17:27:08 bookwar[m]: I think there might have been a miscommunication? This proposal is to basically make a "profile" for each SIG on the Team Directory 17:27:11 As I understood it 17:27:22 I think this is just a directory of active SIGs 17:27:22 SIGs and other teams, yes. 17:27:23 We are not mandating that all SIGs must conform to Fedora Docs :P 17:27:34 We are not asking them to move or do anything extra 17:27:51 Just to say: "Hey I'm active" and then we can include them in the directory 17:27:52 jwf: we are going to ask SIG owners to maintain that profile 17:27:57 what will happen if they don't? 17:28:20 Then they won't be listed as an official Fedora SIG 17:28:30 Again, I don't think that's a high bar. 17:28:50 But also, this is why we wanted to have someone on the council take ownership 17:28:52 bookwar[m]: We should define what "inactive" means, so it is clear to anyone what will get their SIG/team displayed on the Directory. Also makes it easier for us to objectively decide what active or inactive us 17:28:52 depends if nobody is maintaining the docs repo 17:29:00 we need to at least explain all this to SIGs, we haven't published any info about this decision 17:29:02 So there's continuity of someone who knows the process 17:29:12 so i don't understatand the action items here 17:29:30 We are not setting "minimum activity" 17:29:40 We are just asking: Are you active= 17:29:46 That's all? 17:29:56 what is the proposed action? 17:30:06 * mattdm scrolls back 17:30:14 This was my idea: So, if someone else could put asamalik's Pagure comment into a pretty Council doc, I could take an action to write a CommBlog post for it and work with x3mboy / Fedora Marketing on social media outreach 17:30:39 dcantrell and x3mboy (and jwf for d&i) to start doing the thing we agreed they'd do at the last meeting? 17:30:40 Actualizar 17:30:42 fine, i'll do it 17:30:53 bcotton: wait, what are you doing? 17:30:54 Sorry, wrong window 17:30:59 #action bcotton to put asamalik's Pagure comment on team directory into a to-be-created pretty Council doc 17:31:02 So what's the action? 17:31:06 I got lost 17:31:29 bookwar[m]: would it help if we make this a Council Policy doc? 17:31:35 that gives it somewhere to live 17:31:53 and the policy can be: 17:31:57 mattdm: "#action dcantrell to begin populating Engineering teams in the directory" does this mean david supposed to put all sigs in council docs? 17:32:07 mattdm, I agree 17:32:14 how it helps in getting active sigs? 17:32:15 let's just come back to this in the next meeting after i write stuff up 17:32:25 because there's clearly a lot that needs to be communicated here 17:32:47 I would say the next step is write a call for submissions from various work groups to council-docs 17:32:58 #proposed Members of Fedora Teams (including informal SIGs, more formal Working Groups, and etc.) should work with the Council's Engineering, Mindshare, and D&I reps to make sure their entry in the Project Directory is current. 17:33:15 if we want them to be active - we need them to submit the data, so we need ask them for this, and explain what is going on 17:33:15 nack 17:33:39 mattdm: with an appendment: "once Council documentation about how to add to the Project Directory is published." 17:34:15 It is an important step worth making explicit I think 17:34:20 jwf: well that wouldn't make much sense once there is documentation, and so is not a very good policy 17:34:29 I agree documenting it is good 17:34:50 bcotton: do you just want to wait, or do you have an alternate suggestion? 17:35:13 let's get stuff in writing so that people can digest it and then we can come back to it next time 17:35:30 bcotton++ 17:35:32 works for me. 17:35:33 Works for me 17:35:34 bcotton: + 17:35:43 we've already spent a lot of time today discussing things that seemed to be settled, so clearly there's work to do 17:35:45 sounds good 17:35:48 You can keep me accountable to a CommBlog post later on 17:35:50 bcotton yeah. 17:35:53 jwf++ 17:35:53 mattdm: Karma for jflory7 changed to 17 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 17:36:15 #topic Nest feedback and discussion 17:36:16 #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/315 17:36:57 did people enjoy Nest? 17:36:58 riecatnor: do you have specific plans for sharing feedback to Hopin and for doing stuff with the non-platform feedback? or plans you'd like to share at this point, at least :-() 17:37:06 * bcotton enjoyed nest 17:37:07 riecatnor: yaaaaassss! 17:37:18 Yeah, you can assign this ticket to me 17:37:38 is there a deadline for when you want feedback? 17:37:40 I am aggregating feedback from various places and will provide to HopIn 17:37:44 riecatnor: people definitely enjoyed it. very positive feedback 17:37:59 I filed separate ticket https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/321 to track if we can provide hopin access for the community 17:38:02 Well, to be honest, I like this instance more than the one used to the redhat summit 17:38:10 x3mboy++ 17:38:20 x3mboy++ 17:38:20 Conan_Kudo: Karma for x3mboy changed to 15 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 17:38:31 +1000000000 17:38:33 x3mboy: Hahah I gave up even trying to log into RH Summit :P :P 17:38:35 bookwar[m], we definitely can, we are just waiting for access to that. Though I think the process to request events on hopin should actually go through mindshare 17:39:16 riecatnor: ok, do you have such a ticket in mindshare? or should i close this one and create new there? 17:39:29 I haven't opened one there, go ahead 17:39:43 ok, i just would love to have a possibility to get the updates on it 17:40:04 (tangentially related: I also opened a ticket on mindshare for formalizing a process for using limesurvey) 17:40:30 yes, definitely, bookwar[m]. I am staying on top of it for updates, but it is not in my hands to do anything 17:40:54 bookwar[m]: I will definitely subscribe to your ticket too :) 17:41:28 https://pagure.io/mindshare/issue/234 17:41:41 moved 17:42:19 anything else on Nest feedback? 17:42:34 I am also working on various Nest related things.. group photo, readout of polls, swag shipmensts 17:42:39 just fyi :) 17:43:03 :D 17:43:15 riecatnor++ 17:43:30 riecatnor++ 17:43:37 riecatnor++ 17:43:56 #topic Next meeting 17:43:57 #info The next Fedora Council meeting is Thursday 3 September 17:43:57 I think we are gonna need a fresh batch of cookies in this channel soon 17:44:00 okay, so! 17:44:26 I have a feedback: Thanks so much riecatnor for all the effort, the event was awesome, the organization works so good. The platform was as good as it can be. Thanks for a great experience 17:44:30 FPC uses this channel right before us and we have to give them very angry stares through the window, which is not friendly 17:44:54 #fedora-meeting is available probably, but there's an event on the calendar 17:45:09 there's also #fedora-meeting-4 and #fedora-meeting-5, no? 17:45:21 so unless someone thinks we should really really stick to -1, i'll check with the meeting owners and see if we can take that slot 17:45:25 x3mboy: Hear hear :D 17:45:32 bcotton, +1 17:45:33 bcotton: +1 17:45:38 there is also option by move the start of our meeting by ten minutes 17:45:49 we rarely use full hour 17:45:51 King_InuYasha: i have a preference for lower-numbered meetings because lurkers are more likely to be in those channels if we need to ping them 17:45:58 bcotton: fair 17:46:01 bcotton: true 17:46:08 also, apparently -5 isn't initialized yet anyway 17:46:14 so that one event that used it... welp 17:46:20 King_InuYasha: Okay so -5 is one I have not seen used... yet :D 17:46:28 bcotton, +1 17:46:29 bcotton +1 17:46:40 #info The next meeting will *probably* be in #fedora-meeting. Watch for email updates about that 17:46:46 thanks bcotton 17:46:51 thanks 17:47:01 * King_InuYasha makes note to remember to update calendar for that 17:47:03 #action bcotton to check with IRC SIG Meeting owners to see if we can take their meeting slot since they don't seem to be using it 17:47:15 * King_InuYasha is surprised we *have* an IRC SIG 17:47:22 bcotton++ 17:47:25 #topic Do we have anything to announce? 17:47:27 #info This is a regular check to make sure we're communicating to the contributor (via CommBlog) and user (via Magazine) communities 17:47:52 Not yet 17:47:54 King_InuYasha: It is actually one of the oldest Fedora SIGs. I think it is nirik and jbwillia 17:48:01 ah 17:48:09 the folks that manage the fedora-* namespace on Freenode 17:48:18 Other than spot :P 17:48:27 Oh actually, who is our Freenode project contact now? 17:48:27 spot hasn't managed that for a year or so, iirc 17:48:28 I wrote a update blog post for the ambassador commops revamp 17:48:36 jwf: I *think* it's nirik now 17:48:41 King_InuYasha: Hahah so he was doing me favors before :P 17:48:49 jwf: yup 17:48:52 * jwf is wondering who looks at this page nowadays: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FreenodeCloaks 17:48:52 riecatnor++ 17:48:54 bcotton: Karma for riecatnor changed to 17 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 17:48:58 Hopefully it goes out soon if bcotton deems it so 17:49:08 riecatnor: Awesome :) 17:49:15 any other announcements? 17:49:44 I think the biggest announce should be the ambys one 17:49:54 bcotton: maybe link to the public notes you made? 17:50:05 mattdm? 17:50:23 #info notes from Fedora Council virtual meeting before Nest 17:50:31 #info https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/teams/council/council.2020-08-18-18.37.html 17:50:36 #undo 17:50:36 Removing item from minutes: INFO by mattdm at 17:50:31 : https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/teams/council/council.2020-08-18-18.37.html 17:50:44 #link https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/teams/council/council.2020-08-18-18.37.html 17:50:46 yeah, i was going to link to that in the commblog post that's on your desk :-) 17:50:58 not to throw you under the bus or anything :-) 17:51:05 bcotton: ha fair 17:51:24 #topic Dashboard check 17:51:26 #link https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/dashboard/ 17:51:38 so bookwar[m] wisely suggested this be a regular part of our meetings 17:51:47 but i have not yet fulfilled my #action, so it's still largely out of date 17:52:00 but i wanted to go ahead and get in the routine of putting this in the meeting process 17:52:17 dustymabe++ for providing Fedora CoreOS updates on the regular 17:52:17 bcotton: Karma for dustymabe changed to 12 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 17:53:08 thanks bcotton and dustymabe :) 17:53:16 Mindshare contact should be updated 17:53:32 x3mboy: yes, that's part of my #action 17:53:35 #topic Open floor 17:53:51 Cool! 17:53:53 mattdm: do we have time for you to de-vague your objective topic or should that be left for later? 17:54:07 6 minutes to go 17:54:40 bcotton:left for later 17:54:56 I think there's plenty of de-vaguing to do :) 17:54:56 mattdm: ack 17:55:12 mattdm: email thread or next meeting? 17:56:02 anything else we can discuss in 4 minutes? 17:56:28 the weather is perfect in rochester today :) 17:56:36 bcotton: email thread 17:56:40 I have a new dog 17:56:46 x3mboy awesome! 17:56:47 x3mdog++ 17:56:51 lol 17:56:52 77 F, 25 C 17:56:53 It's a little galgo mix called "Lana" 17:56:58 awwweee 17:57:23 x3mboy, I look forward to pics :) 17:57:58 Oh, I have it on google, maybe later 17:58:32 thanks for running the meeting bcotton 17:58:37 okay, see y'all in 2 weeks! 17:58:42 #endmeeting