21:02:54 <bcotton_> #startmeeting FPgM office hours
21:02:54 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Feb 24 21:02:54 2021 UTC.
21:02:54 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
21:02:54 <zodbot> The chair is bcotton_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
21:02:54 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
21:02:54 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fpgm_office_hours'
21:02:56 <bcotton_> #info This is an open floor meeting to discuss anything program management related (elections, changes, schedule, etc)
21:03:12 <bcotton_> oh no! i'm late starting the first ever Wednesday afternoon* office hours
21:03:18 <bcotton_> #topic Announcements
21:03:25 <bcotton_> #info The Fedora Social Hour is tomorrow: https://element.io/app/#/room/#fedora-social-hour:matrix.org
21:03:27 <bcotton_> #help GSoC project proposals and mentor volunteers are due 28 Feb: https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/call-for-projects-and-mentors-gsoc-2021/
21:03:34 <bcotton_> #info The 100% change complete deadline has passed. All changes should be complete (trackers in ON_QA state in Bugzilla)
21:03:35 <bcotton_> #info The Beta freeze is underway.
21:03:37 <bcotton_> #info The early target for the Fedora 34 Beta release is 16 March.
21:03:39 <bcotton_> #topic Open floor
21:17:52 <jibec> hi bcotton_
21:18:07 <bcotton_> hello jibec! it's getting late there, no?
21:18:24 <jibec> for "work hours": yes!
21:18:29 <jibec> for contribution, no, it's usual !
21:19:00 <jibec> I was thinking at change process and what I do with d a r k n a o (I don't want to ping him)
21:20:07 <jibec> the current milestones are designed for  packages, an does not makes so much sense for non package initiatives
21:20:52 <bcotton_> yeah, there's a bit of a gap for things that aren't really release-specific but are too short in time or scope to be Objectives
21:21:20 <bcotton_> i was having a similar conversation with mattdm earlier today, actually
21:21:42 <jibec> I think I don't know the process for objectives
21:22:03 <jibec> I am sure what we do does fit in a larger plan, which is basically in my head
21:22:33 <jibec> the beauty of open source is as long as it is good, people let me do it and sometimes helps a lot <3
21:22:44 <bcotton_> :-D
21:23:37 <bcotton_> so if there is a larger plan that is say 12-18 months of work (or can be split into multiple 12-18 month phases), it might be worth writing them down and proposing a Fedora Objective
21:24:03 <bcotton_> then all of the smaller things could be milestones in the objective
21:25:29 <jibec> well, taking the time to think at this, I would say it is too risky to engage myself on 12-18 months :p
21:25:49 <jibec> i would be afraid to add too much stress on my shoulder
21:26:39 <misc> but so, you want the change process because you want to communicate the change, or is there others reasons for things to be a Change ?
21:27:08 <bcotton_> understandable. but it wouldn't necessarily have to be all you (and in fact, it's better if it's not). you can get several people to be a part of the work
21:28:50 <jibec> the change helps communication makes us to have a time goal to get the work done
21:29:04 <jibec> (yeah, it's getting late :D)
21:32:13 <bcotton_> in theory, it also helps get resources when additional work is needed (e.g. infrastructure) as it would be a higher priority than some random request. more true for objectives than changes, and not guaranteed in either case
21:36:03 <misc> kinda remind me the revamp of mindshare
21:36:13 <misc> not sure if this was a objective ?
21:38:21 <bcotton_> misc: do you mean a few years ago when mindshare was created? or the current Community Outreach Revamp?
21:38:43 <misc> bcotton_: the current revamp
21:39:03 <misc> seems to be a large scale effort, not tied to release, kinda close to what jibec might have in mind
21:40:05 <bcotton_> yep, and that was recently approved as an Objective
21:41:49 <misc> mhh, so I guess I need to find another example :)
21:42:24 <bcotton_> i think it's a pretty good example :-)
21:42:48 <misc> there is CPE initiative as well
21:42:57 <bcotton_> also, our objectives have been very engineering-heavy, so it would be nice to have another not-engineering objective
21:43:47 <bcotton_> although ideally a CPE initiative supports a Fedora Change or Objective instead of being something on it's own. in other words, it'd be good to keep a direct tie in to the community itself
21:44:06 <bcotton_> basically there are no right answers! 🎉🎉🎉
21:44:17 <misc> the datacenter move is what I had in mind
21:45:15 <misc> but I guess that is not a good example
21:46:41 <jibec> anyway, having a process to define objectives would help me
21:46:58 <jibec> I'd like to fight with people about localization inside Fedora :D
21:46:58 * bcotton_ sighs in backlog
21:47:34 <jibec> I'm always impressed as a lot of what debian does is internationalized by default
21:47:43 <jibec> othere distrib does it too
21:47:44 <misc> jibec: are you saying that we define objective in a subjective way :p ?
21:47:57 <bcotton_> i have a card on my Taiga Board of Shame to improve our objectives documentation. It's all pretty loosely defined right now because we haven't done it a bunch, but that's not helpful to people who want to propose an objective
21:48:18 <misc> I like the concept of board of shame
21:48:20 <jibec> yes, totally, there is a lot of subjectivity, we are pioneers
21:49:49 <misc> I guess the size of debian imply a rather huge non english native community, which help for i18n
21:50:06 <jibec> I decided to stop doing todo list, not to be sad about it ^
21:50:09 <misc> (like, for mageia, since we were french, i18n was one of the first and most active subgroup)
21:50:49 <bcotton> jibec++
21:51:04 <jibec> well Fedora localization work is just a troll opportunity
21:51:35 <jibec> what I really care about is we should be pionneer and help the open-source community to improve in localization
21:51:50 <jibec> the same way we do with many technical things
21:53:49 <misc> by starting flamewar on what editor to ship by default ?
21:54:45 <jibec> by starting flamewar: how to deliver an Fedora Linux without a single line of English in it
21:55:04 <jibec> if Mozilla Firefox can do it, we could do it too :D
21:55:06 <bcotton_> :-D
21:55:16 <misc> just stop shipping fonts
21:55:30 <jibec> :D
21:55:41 <bcotton_> emoji-only
21:55:54 <misc> Wingdings
21:56:06 <jibec> well, I think this would be a nice objective, remove english language from ISOs
21:56:28 <jibec> but language limited people would be lost
21:57:18 <bcotton_> Oh dang, I guess I named my dog ewagq3w4e4$$DfaZ for nothing!
21:57:54 <misc> well, I had one day to repair a windows computer with russian as a locale, it is ... interesting
21:57:58 <bcotton_> yeah, I would struggle without English. but it would be awesome to have options for people who don't know English
21:58:59 <misc> jibec: I think you can't really remove english, since that's the original string
21:58:59 <jibec> you laugh, but I am serious, we could really ship an ISO without English in it and still be a usable operating system
21:59:19 <misc> best you can do is to create a en translation that would be another language
21:59:23 <misc> (like, french)
22:00:08 <jibec> well, firefox people did it, if it works for a program, it works for an operating system
22:00:18 <jibec> and they did it years ago
22:00:45 <misc> they did ship a firefow where you can't display anything in english ?
22:01:26 <jibec> haha
22:02:19 <misc> (cause right now, the firefox binary has english error messages )
22:02:34 <bcotton_> well if you don't make any errors, you won't see those :-)
22:02:38 <misc> having a fully translated OS, yeah, that's IMHO a doable goal
22:03:18 <jibec> it is doable if we make translable all the packages, this is going to be a mess :D
22:04:02 <misc> oh, that
22:04:08 <misc> yeah, mandrake tried that
22:04:37 <jibec> Mandrake the Magician ?
22:06:18 <misc> nan, mandrake linux
22:06:24 <bcotton_> well friends, i need to go get started on dinner. i'll leave you two to plot the overthrow of the English language :-D
22:06:35 <misc> (who was inspire by mandrake the magician, and the company got sued)
22:06:57 <smooge> did you end meeting before you left?
22:07:41 <misc> he didn't :p
22:07:44 <bcotton_> i dit not, i was about to
22:07:49 <bcotton_> did not, either :-)
22:07:52 <bcotton_> #endmeeting