17:00:36 #startmeeting FAmSCo 2012-06-02 17:00:36 Meeting started Mon Jul 2 17:00:36 2012 UTC. The chair is cwickert. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 17:00:36 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 17:00:41 #meetingname famsco 17:00:41 The meeting name has been set to 'famsco' 17:00:57 #chair cwickert aeperezt nb 17:00:57 Current chairs: aeperezt cwickert nb 17:01:26 #topic Roll call 17:01:27 * FranciscoD brings in a stool and sits quietly in a corner to watch 17:01:31 .fas cwickert 17:01:32 cwickert: cwickert 'Christoph Wickert' 17:01:50 .fas aeperezt 17:01:50 aeperezt: aeperezt 'Alejandro Perez' 17:02:02 * cwickert wonders if we'll l reach a quorum 17:02:26 * herlo is here 17:02:31 ok, there is our quorum 17:02:51 bckurera: are you there? 17:03:19 daniel Bruno, is traveling today so could not make it 17:03:22 cwickert: yes indeed :) 17:04:00 #info Daniel and Jiri are traveling today 17:04:23 #info present members of FAmSCo: aeperezt, bckurera, cwickert, herlo 17:04:32 .fas bckurera 17:04:33 bckurera: bckurera 'Buddhika Kurera' 17:04:39 #info nb is in in the channel but seems to be afk 17:06:38 sorry if I appear slow or sleeping 17:06:56 it's actually my laptop that has a load of 9.something 17:07:03 cwickert: no worries sir, I *am* slow and sleeping. 17:07:10 and I cannot interrupr the other processes 17:07:14 #link https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/report/9 17:07:35 so, who if you went through the open tickets? 17:07:40 s/if/of 17:08:14 all of you? awesome! 17:08:29 there really only seems to be one there that is new. 17:09:01 new? 17:09:04 * cwickert reloads 17:09:10 not new today 17:09:23 it does not look that there is a new ticket 17:09:27 just more recent than the last meeting I attended. Sorry, I just realized it's actually old... 17:09:42 the peru ticket was discussed in the last meeting 17:09:51 I'm afraid I forgot to update it 17:10:02 but I think we should look into closing some old ticket, too 17:10:11 cwickert, right and they are working on it now 17:10:17 * FranciscoD notes that #268 can probably be closed: https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/268 "Regulate what regional tracs are needed" 17:10:28 yes, that is the one I meant. Good to know, I have not had time to review the meeting notes from last week as of yet. 17:10:31 aeperezt: ?! 17:10:52 Yes lets start taking tickets 17:11:05 cwickert, people in Pero are working on that ticket, they need to figured out how to get the funds 17:11:17 *Peru 17:11:33 FranciscoD there APAC region is ok, what about others? 17:12:00 bckurera: that ticket was actually only regarding apac and india. I think fresh tickets for other tracs would make more sense. 17:12:28 (the entire discussion on that tickets is about the india and apac tracs iirc) 17:12:34 aeperezt: what does "working on the ticket" mean exactly? 17:12:51 but yes, the other tracs need to be worked on too, as cwickert has said in the last comment 17:12:57 #topic Fedora Realease 17 Party Peru 17:13:01 .famsco 301 17:13:01 https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/301 17:13:12 cwickert, working on produce what famsco approve 17:13:28 aeperezt: are they aware we did not approve the shirts? 17:13:36 cwickert, yes they are 17:13:42 who is in charge of production? 17:13:46 where is the ticket? 17:14:05 cwickert, yulytas 17:14:59 cwickert, we talk to her last week about that and see is working on what was approve 17:19:14 aeperezt: ok, I have finally updated the FAmSCo ticket 17:19:22 with the decision from last week 17:19:30 cwickert, great 17:19:39 sorry I forgot to do it, the crash of meetbot caused some delay 17:20:04 ok, what ticket is next? 17:20:15 #topic Regulate what regional tracs are needed 17:20:20 .famsco 268 17:20:23 https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/268 17:20:41 bckurera: you had something for this ticket, right? 17:20:55 APAC is done 17:21:05 but your last comment is associated with other regions as well 17:21:14 are we continuing or start a new ticket? 17:21:29 Or all regions ok now? 17:22:02 I think EMEA is not yet ok 17:22:20 I would like to rename the emea-swag-tracker to fedora-emea 17:22:33 but I need to talk to kital first, he is the owner 17:22:45 and he is on holidays 17:22:53 cwickert +1 17:23:24 #action cwickert to talk to kital about renaming https://fedorahosted.org/emea-swag-tracking/ to https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-emea/ 17:23:31 LATAM? 17:23:48 latam is fedora-latam 17:23:56 so this is ok I think 17:24:01 bckurera, Latam can be as it is fedora latam 17:24:04 aeperezt: what do you think? 17:24:10 aeperezt: +1 17:24:18 +1 17:24:32 NA is ok too 17:24:37 not sure 17:24:52 lets make this an action item for nb 17:25:01 he should bring this up in the NA meeting 17:25:36 * inode0 can raise it tomorrow at the meeting too, but what is that you want from us? 17:25:40 #action nb to discuss if famna tracker could/should be renamed to fedora-na for consistency 17:26:00 inode0: we would like to have everything more consistent, fedora- 17:26:09 it's not a must though 17:26:15 just bring it up 17:26:22 ok 17:26:31 of course this requires some apache rewriting so old URLs still work 17:26:38 alright, thanks inode0 17:27:45 ok, lets move on 17:27:56 #topic Sponsoring event attendees 17:28:02 #famsco 265 17:28:12 Will take it next week and see if there is any updates 17:28:21 .famsco 265 17:28:21 https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/265 17:28:46 I'd like to discuss this one as inode0 filed it and he happens to be around 17:28:59 did everybody read what inode0 proposed? 17:29:06 if not, read now please 17:29:14 * cwickert gives everybody 2 minutes 17:29:34 I did read 17:32:24 questions to inode0? 17:33:05 Is this FAmSCo relevant or the board scope? 17:33:11 cwickert, I read it on the weekend did my homework :-) 17:33:30 inode0: I am somewhat confused 17:33:56 I suspect neither FAmSCo or Board can just say this is how it will be done since FUDCons aren't funded directly by either but they could encourage a specific approach. 17:34:03 because of "The review should be strictly guided by the above linked guidelines." vs. "This body should be guided by but not strictly bound to the ranking produced by the review in (1)." 17:34:22 so strictly or not? 17:34:44 both, the above guidelines allow for special considerations 17:35:28 inode0: you have a talent to be very fuzzy sometimes ;) 17:35:59 I understand you want common sense, but common sense is so hard to codify in a written guideline 17:36:04 Well, as the last FAmSCo election proved you can't plan for everything with hard rules. :) 17:36:36 inode0: don't say that, in fact you warned us of this and I was the one who said it will never happen 17:36:49 so if you had been more strict... 17:37:00 I would like to see the guidelines be used and the order of evaluation be something better than FIFO. Those are my goals. 17:37:05 anyway, I think we need to clarify that a little 17:37:30 so, should we say something like this 17:37:43 Review strictly based on the guidelines 17:37:53 but final decision making not? 17:38:12 any native english speaker who can make a nice sentence of this? 17:38:14 Let me explain better. 17:38:30 Yes to make the decisions based on the guidelines. 17:39:22 For the order there will be some ranking of requests. I would like for the committee to be able to deviate from that in special cases where there is a particular need for a particular person's skills. 17:40:26 that does not really hit the spot 17:40:37 I mean, that's not what I asked for 17:41:06 So if there was a big event goal of finishing work on project X and one person is key to getting that done then that person should be considered early in the process 17:41:27 please don't explain it with examples, we need guidelines 17:41:33 or at least best practices 17:41:49 I totally understand what you mean and why 17:41:59 you can't understand better what I am trying to accomplish by seeing an example? 17:42:27 but I'm afraid listing 5 different examples in the wiki will not help us to make things more clear 17:43:19 anyway, lets not get too much into the details of the wording now 17:43:33 does everybody agree to the general idea that inode0 outlined?! 17:43:41 +1 17:43:43 +1 17:43:44 right, some group can work on wording if people generally agree to the goal 17:44:10 I agree but I think we need to have a open discussion with the rest of the community as well 17:44:21 not only FAms but also with others 17:44:48 we will because I don't think FAmSCo can just say this is now how it works anyway 17:45:34 bckurera: how long do you expect this to take? 17:45:40 in fact this began as an open discussion on the fedora board mailing list 17:45:41 for the record, I am +1, too 17:45:45 there should be a way to evaluate the contributors, we need to find what is it :) 17:46:01 some call him captain obvious ;) 17:46:23 cwickert, you mean the discussion? 17:46:28 bckurera: read the guidelines :) 17:46:38 bckurera: yes 17:47:27 We can use the mailing lists like Call for Ideas, set a deadline then 17:48:50 But one thing confusing me is, since this is not directly in the FAmSCos' scope why dont we discuss this at the Board level? 17:49:12 because it is not a board issue 17:49:20 * inode0 originally raised it there as the ticket indicates 17:49:25 until we find another group, FAmSCo does the budget 17:49:29 igorps opened the famsco ticket 17:49:43 famsco has never done the premier events budget 17:49:44 and the ambassadors organize events and travel most 17:49:57 so I consider FAmSCo very appropriate for to do this 17:50:06 being clear the requests related with the FAms budget, FUDcon budget is not included there 17:50:48 but decisions about FUDCon attendance are made by the FUDCon organizers and they happen to be ambassadors in 95% of the cases 17:51:17 that is true, ambassadors are heavily involved in this process and in making the decisions 17:51:20 even if Harish or Robyn are the budget owners for a FUDCon, they don't make the decision, at least not alone 17:52:00 anyway, what I want us to do is to come up with a clear proposal 17:52:26 there are a lot of ideas in the OpenSUSE wiki 17:52:33 and we should consider some of them 17:52:49 when we are done with all this, I want to have a nice wiki page with all the information 17:53:10 or lets say an enhanced version of http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Sponsoring_event_attendees 17:53:26 so is anybody willing to drive this? 17:53:37 * inode0 agrees we should carefully considers ideas from the OpenSUSE process too 17:54:26 bckurera: you seemed interested, how about you help us? 17:54:31 ah 17:54:52 bckurera_: seems you were disconnected, what was the last thing you saw us say? 17:55:20 come up with a proposal 17:55:50 * cwickert repeats 17:55:56 there are a lot of ideas in the OpenSUSE wiki 17:56:00 and we should consider some of them 17:56:05 when we are done with all this, I want to have a nice wiki page with all the information 17:56:13 or lets say an enhanced version of http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Sponsoring_event_attendees 17:56:16 +1 openSUSE ideas 17:56:19 so is anybody willing to drive this? 17:56:20 +1 17:56:28 +1 17:56:36 seems like a good idea 17:56:54 I like to take the lead with the deadline of next meeting 17:56:54 don't just say +1 please, say "I am willing to work on this" :) 17:57:14 I am willing to help, but I an not the only one doing it 17:57:37 and we should have some native english speaker read over it 17:58:18 Before setting up the guideline will decide what to include and what to exclude, then we can develop the guideline 17:58:19 bckurera_: ok, so you make a draft in the wiki until next week. try to incorporate the suggestions from OpenSUSE 17:58:33 we can still remove them later if we don't like them 17:58:41 then we discuss everything again next week 17:58:54 sure, I ll take it, it is a draft for the proposal :) 17:59:03 * herlo has a hard stop at one hour 17:59:06 and give the ambassadors or other interested parties 2 weeks for feedback 17:59:09 ok? 17:59:24 * herlo likes where cwickert and bckurera_ are going... :) 17:59:29 great ! 17:59:44 herlo: before you leave please remember your FamSCo goals 18:00:01 cwickert: yes, I am planning on posting them today/tomorrow. 18:00:13 cwickert , can you add an action item for me please? 18:00:18 * herlo was very busy the last few week or would have done it sooner. :/ 18:00:29 #action bckurera to work on a new version of http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Sponsoring_event_attendees that incorporates the ideas from inode0 and OpenSUSE 18:00:35 there you are bckurera :) 18:00:46 you can even give yourself action items, you are chair, too 18:00:55 cwickert : thanks ! 18:00:58 ok, anything else on this? 18:01:13 lets move then 18:01:45 bckurera: draft something in your personal namespace on the wiki under user:bckurera and let me look over it by say Sunday, ok? 18:02:04 ok sure 18:02:04 please don't replace http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Sponsoring_event_attendees yet 18:02:07 ok 18:02:44 any other tickets we should discuss? 18:02:52 * cwickert needs to leave soon, too 18:03:15 I don't think we can make any budget decisions 18:03:23 We need to finalize #281 soon 18:03:29 Will try to discuss #281 next week and close it asap 18:03:41 what is the status there? 18:03:52 #topic Budget review guidelines 18:03:55 I will conclude the APAC FAm decision for this with the next week meeting 18:03:57 .famsco 281 18:04:00 https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/281 18:04:15 bckurera: what decision?! 18:04:20 there is a ticket at fedora-apac trac, but less comments I ll give some kick-start :) 18:04:41 cwickert, Latam has conclude decision on the quorum for the region and agreed on it 18:04:52 aeperezt: thanks 18:05:14 aeperezt: do you think that you can make the 4 countries rule? 18:05:25 I mean, how often do you actually meet? 18:05:36 or do you want to do this in trac? 18:05:37 cwickert : how the funding requests should be handled with in APAC. 18:05:47 cwickert, we start getting meetings once a week 18:05:51 limits and etc.. 18:06:04 so I think we can meet the 4 countries rule 18:06:06 bckurera: ok, please update us as soon as you have something 18:06:20 aeperezt: ok, you can change your rules if necessary 18:06:28 cwickert, right 18:06:33 * cwickert has not yet discussed this in the EMEA meeting 18:06:43 and I'm afraid it will take more time 18:06:46 cwickert I can update this in next Saturday, there will be a meeting 18:06:55 ok bckurera 18:07:07 we can use mailing lists as well 18:07:09 inode0: I'd like to address your concern here 18:07:21 to get more discussion happening :) 18:08:20 bckurera: discussions yes, decisions no, I think decisions should happen in trac or in a meeting with a meeting log only, otherwise you will have people arguing they did not see that mail or their mail was lost and whatnot 18:08:25 back to inode0 18:08:46 inode0 was afraid that it only works in NA or EMEA but not in other regions 18:09:34 he said that not any random ambassadors should be able to make a decision 18:09:57 but only a larger group of people or people who have proven to be responsible 18:10:04 inode0: did I summarize that correctly? 18:10:15 I don't think so, but some of it 18:10:41 ok, then please don't be so shy, but let us know your concerns 18:10:55 I don't think this works anywhere even NA and EMEA if the group isn't limited to a specific amount of money as an upper limit 18:11:14 which is not the case 18:11:28 we do have limits, this is where it all started 18:11:31 So in EMEA I think it would work fine if you told EMEA that they control up to $20k per year and can decide how to spend it regionally 18:11:41 * bckurera , there are pros and cons, we had a long discussion at the 1st FAmSCo meeting as well :) 18:11:49 I took that for granted 18:11:51 no, we have one global limit, not regional limits as far as I have sen 18:12:11 inode0: there is a ticket open for regional tickets 18:12:15 erm, limits 18:12:30 just telling them they can spend up to $1000 or whatever any time 5 people say yes isn't the same thing 18:12:39 hold on please 18:12:52 first to address the regional distribution 18:13:15 the idea is to distribute the budget on the previous spendings 18:13:25 but this requires figures we currently don't have 18:13:37 but we definitely want a regional budget 18:13:59 and we want somebody with an overview who can grant exceptions if we have budget left 18:14:03 ok? 18:14:22 ok, rather than wait for what we will never have how about asking regions to tell you what they think they will need? 18:14:22 (that was not only for inode0 but for everybody= 18:14:23 = 18:14:24 ) 18:14:58 forcing them to plan ahead will help spend responsibly I think 18:15:04 how are they supposed to know what they need if they don't know what they needed in the past? 18:15:17 they should know what they did last year 18:15:37 so, who has an overview of the spendings in NA? 18:15:42 and they can list events they want to support and estimate budgets for them 18:15:50 Do any one have a figure, about the total budget we have for this FY? 18:15:51 I guess not even you even though you are the credit card holder 18:16:11 bckurera: no, I think we discussed that already 18:16:25 we are waiting for Harish 18:16:33 and he doesn't have a clue either 18:16:40 I don't see anything preventing regions from estimating their expected expenses 18:16:47 ok, right 18:17:02 cwickert : yes we dont have, but we are on the Q2 on FY 18:17:35 bckurera: we don't have a budget for this year and we don't know how much we spent last year 18:18:24 this does not block us 18:18:27 bckurera: do you believe me or not? do you have figures that I don't have? 18:18:29 we can get a rough estimation by looking at the FAmSCo tickets how much we have spent, but it will be a tedious task 18:18:41 inode0, it will depend on how well the region has used the budget before and how it can grow 18:18:46 we know we have and had roughly 90k for regionally support 18:18:56 let us please not discuss this 18:19:08 it is messed up and we need somebody to clean it up 18:19:25 but none of us is capable because none of us has the figures 18:19:32 cwickert : You are right we have a rough value not the actual value we spent, I believe on you :) 18:19:33 and they are not in trac either 18:19:53 bckurera: no, we don't even have a rough value 18:20:29 we have some numbers on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Community_Architecture_expenses but they are not reliable 18:20:37 anyway, let us not discuss this now 18:20:38 cwickert : i mean on hand we dont have but we can contact all the credit card holders and solve the equation, then we have :) 18:20:46 because this is a different issue 18:21:06 credit card holder know nothing about the budget 18:21:26 bckurera: no we cannot, and if you don't believe me, please go ahead and do it. please have it ready by next week :P 18:21:35 Yes, someone need to track all the findings, I did track it for APAC 18:22:11 bckurera: will you please trust me? you don't even have a clue about APAC because APAC is the most messed up budget 18:22:25 because it was done by Harish who doesn't have a clue either 18:22:50 cwickert hmm ok :) 18:22:58 if you really think you know the numbers, please show them or send them to rbergero, she is working hard to clean up the mess 18:23:02 then what would be the solution? 18:23:12 to hire somebody 18:23:12 so how does authorizing any random 5 ambassadors to spend $1000 for anything they agree on moving us forward? :) 18:23:28 I think we discussed that already 18:23:33 like 10 times 18:23:35 * inode0 thinks the cart is in front of the horse 18:24:01 so can we for now please stop talking about the budget and the exact figures but only about the ticket? 18:24:25 let us just assume there is some kind of regional budget, no matter where it is coming from 18:24:34 ok, I have heard nothing that explains it to me so you should discuss this not worrying about my concerns now 18:24:37 just for info, I know Harish, Inode0 and Kital have credit cards, who else have? 18:24:50 please..... 18:24:58 we have discussed this over and over 18:25:00 bckurera, Neville 18:25:02 it is in the wiki, 18:25:12 I just posted the link 18:25:35 can we please move on with inode0's concerns? 18:25:44 sure 18:25:57 thanks aeperezt 18:26:29 sorry inode0, I kind of lost the track. what was your last concern? 18:27:45 * cwickert rings the 15 minute bell 18:27:56 I really don't think my concerns can be dealt with without setting regional budgets. So not today apparently. 18:28:04 ok 18:28:18 I wanted to address them, but I'll better do this in the ticket 18:28:47 * cwickert feels like we just wasted 20 minutes 18:28:57 any other tickets` 18:28:58 ? 18:30:21 should I close the meeting? 18:30:28 think yes 18:30:34 are you all scared now because I was to unfriendly? 18:30:37 We had a long meeting, so yes :) 18:31:15 sorry, I really don't want to sound rude, but I am tired of discussing the same questions again and again. 18:31:35 so if we agreed to go through the open tickets and read them, I assume everybody did it 18:32:03 and I also assume that everybody would send a mail about his FAmSCo goals 18:32:10 #topic FAmSCo goals 18:32:21 who has sent his mails and who has not? 18:32:23 * cwickert has 18:32:30 cwickert, done 18:32:33 * cwickert knows Jiri has 18:32:34 * bckurera did it 18:32:41 * aeperezt did it 18:33:27 bckurera: cheater, you did it when we started the meeting ;) 18:33:30 * aeperezt Danie Bruno also has 18:34:02 #action nb and herlo to send a mail about their FAmSCo goals to the list 18:34:06 yeah, however action item done :D 18:34:16 #topic Action items from previous meetings 18:34:33 * cwickert quickly goes through the list from http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-2/2012-06-25/famsco.2012-06-25-17.00.html 18:34:44 danielbruno and aeperezt to host a "swag bazaar" at FUDCon and and a session about swag shipping improvements 18:35:03 aeperezt: you should add it to the agenda of the FUDCon already, ok? 18:35:11 cwickert, ok 18:35:15 bckurera to discuss the situation in APAC in the next regional meeting 18:35:24 bckurera: this has not yet happened, right? 18:36:45 DONE - cwickert to nag budget owner to get the numbers of 2011 and remove the 'meeting' keyword from #251 until there is something to discuss 18:37:02 NOT DONE - all FAmSCo members to revisit #264 and add further concerns or questions to the ticket 18:37:23 KIND OF DONE - all FAmSCo members to read through the open tickets so wer can work effectively 18:37:39 TODO - all FAmSCo members: Make. Some. Noise. Speak about your goals, blog about them, spread the word, use twitter, FB and G+ 18:37:51 TODO - cwickert to update #296 with the relevant links about the current broken FAD funding process 18:37:54 #action cwickert to update #296 with the relevant links about the current broken FAD funding process 18:38:02 ok, that's all 18:38:13 thanks to those of you who did their work 18:38:28 even if they didn't manage to do everything 18:38:39 just like I forgot one action item 18:38:46 ok, thanks everybody for coming 18:38:54 * cwickert will now end this meeting 18:38:56 #endmeeting