17:01:48 #startmeeting FAmSCo weekly 17:01:48 Meeting started Mon Jul 23 17:01:48 2012 UTC. The chair is herlo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 17:01:48 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 17:02:04 #chair aeperezt bckurera nb 17:02:04 Current chairs: aeperezt bckurera herlo nb 17:02:36 #topic roll call 17:02:39 * herlo is here 17:02:53 .fas aeperezt 17:02:55 aeperezt: aeperezt 'Alejandro Perez' 17:02:58 .fas bckurera 17:02:58 bckurera: bckurera 'Buddhika Kurera' 17:03:37 Christoph Wickert sends regrets for this meeting 17:04:20 sounds like #info ? 17:05:15 bckurera: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions 17:05:55 #info Meeting participants : aeperezt bckurera herlo nb 17:06:05 #info Christoph Wickert sends regrets for this meeting 17:06:18 bckurera: ahh, I see what you mean. 17:06:34 done :) 17:08:05 shall we proceed ? 17:08:13 sure 17:09:03 .fas scientes 17:09:04 scientes: 'scientes' Not Found! 17:09:14 not sure what that command is suppose to do 17:09:21 scientes: please do that elsewhere 17:09:23 sure 17:09:26 we are in a meeting :) 17:09:33 yes and I'm here for it 17:10:00 awesome 17:10:15 scientes: .fas is related to your fas name 17:11:05 ok the next is announcements >> 17:11:43 bckurera: so you could do #topic Announeements? 17:11:57 herlo please lead the meeting 17:12:01 but spell it correctly 17:12:05 * herlo doesn't want to run the meeting :) 17:14:29 * herlo also thinks that there are really only 3 folks here, nb hasn't responded to anything yet... 17:14:42 ok then who lead the meeting? 17:14:45 probably good to get a quorum if we can before proceeding 17:15:01 well, if cwickert isn't here, it should be sesivany iirc, but he's not here either. 17:15:38 yup the reason is with 3 members we cannot proceed for the daily business, tickets 17:15:45 also daniebruno is not here 17:16:13 aeperezt: indeed. 17:16:33 * herlo can't recall who the vice chair is, but at least 3 people failed to send regrets :/ 17:17:08 herlo danielbruno is vice chair 17:17:14 aah, okay 17:17:16 then are we going to conclude since we dont have the quorum? 17:17:29 jiri still traveling 17:17:36 Is there any general business we can take, other than voting ? 17:18:01 herlo how about the guideline ? 17:18:04 I thought it was going to be next hour 17:18:28 bckurera, on the tickets does not think there are no urgent matters 17:18:33 bckurera: I do have that partly done 17:18:46 herlo can we get a link? 17:18:49 sorry 17:19:16 in the report there are not urgent matters https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/report/9 17:19:17 bckurera: however, in talking with inode0, I'm apt to just say we should set aside one number as the limit and otherwise let the regions sort out their own budgets based upon taht number. 17:19:37 here's the draft, though 17:19:38 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Herlo/Reimbursement_Process 17:20:09 thanks 17:20:35 ! 17:20:56 herlo we can set out basic limits, but if the regions need they can change it or use the basic one, that is fine 17:20:59 inode0: please go ahead 17:21:04 Regions need real budgets before any of this makes much sense. 17:21:22 cwickert thinks we need numbers for regions' spending last year to proceed. 17:21:33 bckurera: is this is a *guideline* or set limits? 17:21:50 I think each region should be requested to submit a budget for what they want/need to spend in the future instead. 17:22:41 Setting these limits will lead to all sorts of issues ... I can discuss those if you want. 17:22:48 inode0 submitting a budget before hand is not that practical, but we can have a rough estimation based on the last year expenses 17:23:02 inode0: do you think it would be good to also work on a reimbursement process within each region based upon those limits? 17:23:09 bckurera: setting a budget before hand is the way real budgets work 17:24:02 inode0 : as I believe we are not that stable, anyway some regions may be, but I doubt it 17:24:07 bckurera: why should you be limited in any way to what you spent last year when your needs this year might be more or less? 17:24:12 inode0, we can based the budget on previous year expenses plus what we plan to do for the next year 17:24:50 we aren't ever going to have numbers for last year - so I really think you need to stop demanding last year's numbers 17:25:14 and this year is half over already 17:25:29 inode0: I'm not sure that's true. I bet FAmNA can provide what it spent and was reimbursed from 2011. 17:25:46 and I bet all the other regions can too, based upon the regional trac instances 17:25:51 inode0 : A rough estimation , APAC have the records on spendings 17:25:58 we can estimate roughly but RHT people spend on FAmNA in ways we don't have documented 17:26:29 inode0: and to my mind, that's never going to change and shouldn't be accounted for as it's an unpredictable thing 17:26:30 so we need to get and estimate of what we plan to do this year 17:26:43 or what is left of it 17:26:44 or just say 20%+/- 17:26:46 I just don't care what APAC spent last year 17:26:55 What does APAC need this year is what I care about 17:28:42 and unless APAC will tell me I have nothing of value to base any number on 17:28:43 inode0 The situation is highly dynamic, it is not possible to estimate how much we need for 2012-2013, that is why we cannt piratically have a fine tuned budget, but a rough estimation 17:29:20 bckurera: then this is a worthless exercise IMO 17:29:35 therefore I think we need to allocate the regional budget, but not limited to that 17:29:37 isn't a budget a rough estimation? 17:29:43 we can have no budget responsibility without planning ahead and being limited overall 17:29:56 it just says, here's what we *plan* to spend 17:30:05 if the allocation is about to finish we can considering allocating more 17:30:10 what we *actually* spend could be more or less than this by say 20% 17:30:21 bckurera: what I want is a regional budget -- I just want it based on the needs of the region, not some random amount spent in the past 17:31:12 so the point here is that inode0 wants each region to go back to their meetings or what not and come up wiht what they want to spend money on for 2012-2013 Fiscal Year 17:31:13 bckurera: FAmSCo should definitely withhold money from the regional budgets to deal with discretionary/emergency matters 17:31:45 bring that back and then FAmSCo (and others) can review and approve. 17:31:47 well, I think maybe we should try for a number for the 3rd and 4th quarters of FY13 17:32:00 Ok then we can check how many regional can submit a regional budget estimation? 17:32:14 inode0: sure, quarterly budgets seem fine. 17:32:17 there are four regions 17:32:25 they each do it 17:33:00 inode0: can you put this on the FAmNA budget? 17:33:01 if we allocate just for example 15,000 to FAmNA, just let FAmNA disburse that how it decides 17:33:08 s/budget/agenda/ 17:33:19 ok then we ask every region to submit an estimation, a budget request for Q3 and Q4 17:33:23 limits at that point on line-items are just extra hoops that serve little purpose 17:33:44 FAmSCo members can discuss this in meetings and get a feedback 17:34:01 inode0: I still think for certain reimbursements it might be good to have a *guideline* similar to what I've drawn up (based upon recommendations here) 17:34:27 but the regions themselves can define what those are 17:35:01 guidelines usually are specific to the dollar, I don't object to guidelines 17:35:12 are not 17:35:22 herlo I also think we need to keep limits as we agreed 17:35:40 Regions can follow what we set or something they decide 17:35:41 * inode0 hates those limits 17:35:46 what I don't want to see is a bunch of piddly requests coming into FAmSCo when the regions could have a good way to deal with it on their own 17:36:03 $500 in Ghana is not $500 in NYC 17:36:06 inode0: think of them as guidelines, put the word *about* in front of them 17:36:15 just arbitrary meaningless numbers 17:36:36 and I think this is more of a way to show how it *could* be done 17:37:01 inode0: also bckurera just said 'Regions can follow what we set or something they decide' 17:37:33 inode0 it is simple, if there is a problem with the limits then NA can define as they like and want 17:37:39 to which I agree. There has to be limits but it can be more of a component of the region, not so much as a global mandate 17:37:45 then they aren't limits 17:37:58 what is the point of them? 17:38:06 as a guideline 17:38:18 yes as a guideline 17:38:21 herlo +1 17:38:28 give the people who do the approving/paying of bills/reimbursement some sort of recourse 17:38:29 then you can just say "each region should set reasonable limits" blah blah blah 17:38:41 yup, and this is a guideline of how it could be done 17:39:06 not really 17:39:09 but you should have one 17:39:19 FAmNA can't set what limit must go to Red Hat or FAmSCo 17:39:50 it is better to have an example, if regions want they can change it as long as they meet their budget then 17:39:51 inode0: I'm not arguing semantics with you, please feel free to write one up that works for FAmNA, other regions can do the same. As long as they appear reasonable, i don't see it being that problematic 17:40:07 what limits would you like FAmNA to set? 17:40:11 dunno 17:40:40 it could be based upon types of purchases. Airfare and hotel vs swag might be a good way to set limits. 17:40:41 I don't see any of the limits FAmSCo set as being limits a region could set 17:41:08 inode0: those are specifically for reimbursement of purchases. Categorization is going to occur. 17:41:29 categorize it how you like, this one was done based upon dollar amount 17:41:48 we aren't communicating I don't think 17:41:57 but please put it on the agenda to discuss the budget and a reimbursement guidelines/process 17:42:26 your guideline says FAmNA can approve expenses up to $1999 - can FAmNA change that to $15,000? 17:42:28 inode0: I get that you are saying the numbers on the guidelines I've written up don't work... 17:43:12 inode0: come up with a schema that works for FAmNA, don't debate the numbers with me. I think FAmSCo just wants to see a reasonable process 17:43:27 (a) drop the limits 17:43:35 (b) assign budget to each region 17:43:49 inode0: like I said, do what you like. This is just an example of a guideline you *could* set. 17:43:50 (c) do something later if you think funds were unwisely spent by the regions 17:44:06 * herlo is not disagreeing with this... 17:44:40 herlo: well, I don't want to say I am ignoring the FAmSCo guidelines 17:44:41 I need to make some clarification here, I agree regions need to set their own limits 17:44:47 and neither does anyone else 17:45:18 but they should be reasonable, the objective is to cover the expenses without having problems 17:45:59 Therefore I strongly agree with (b) and (c) 17:46:04 not with the (a) 17:46:21 bckurera: let me give you an example of problems with (a) 17:46:22 I think we can discuss the limits based upon what the regions come back with, however. 17:46:36 in NA we annually purchase t-shirts one time (normally) 17:46:44 that bill is slightly over $2,000 17:47:03 we can't approve this bill we have approved for years under the proposed limits 17:47:20 we can order of a few less, or split it into two smaller orders though 17:47:33 or we could have a new hoop of asking famsco permission 17:47:43 none of that is in any way good 17:48:19 it just makes the lives of people doing the work harder 17:48:56 inode0 it is a special expense occurring only once an year but our effort here to make the life easier when it come to day to day business 17:49:02 inode0: so I have made this suggestion a couple of times. Please come up with a reimbursement process that works for FAmNA, but it does need to exist. 17:49:12 herlo: I have 17:49:15 inode0: ?? 17:49:20 give famna a bloody budget 17:49:33 then watch famna responsibly spend it 17:50:11 inode0: and thus, a budget has numbers and limits, so I'm good with that, but how do you reimburse people spending money within the budget. 17:50:33 bckurera: it doesn't improve any other aspect of expense handling that we do now either 17:51:16 inode0 what is the average amount of a fund request in NA? 17:51:30 I have no idea 17:51:41 inode0: that's what I'm asking for, how do they get reimbursed? I'm thinking 99% of the money spent for big ticket items won't be 'reimbursed' but rather spent on a CC or from a PO from RHT 17:51:47 there are swag requests, travel requests, all sorts of requests 17:52:30 The idea behind introducing limits is: to make the life easier for FAmSCo as well as regions 17:53:00 like there is no need to bring little amount for the approval, then FAmSCo saves time and regions too 17:53:01 herlo: still, if I can use my judgment to approve $500 then I can approve $1000 by just spending that $500 twice 17:53:29 and there is zero point in ordering two shipments of this item to just comply with an arbitrary limit 17:54:03 but if a decision is for a large sum them exactly FAmSCo should involves, and that holds the responsibility 17:54:11 inode0: I'm not sure that is applicable. I just stated you should come up with your own limits/rules for reimbursement. I honestly just want them to be reasonable and make it easier for the regions to do the things they want to do. 17:55:09 herlo: I have given you my rules many times and I don't think any of these limits make sense so I am not going to propose other arbitrary limits 17:55:11 inode0: but somehow, you keep insinuating that the guidelines I've written up and FAmSCo has suggested are rock solid and apply to everyone, but they are just recommendations on how a reimbursement guideline might look. 17:55:59 inode0: so you'll just willy nilly approve expenses for things that aren't in your budget and couldn't have foreseen? 17:56:08 herlo: so this $1999 limit on regions isn't really a limit, it is just a guideline and if APAC decides to approve something for $3000 that is fine? 17:56:53 that is the problem, limits without a budget leads to approving things will-nilly -- bingo! 17:57:12 inode0 that is why I noted, even the regions want use their own limits they should be reasonable 17:57:18 as long as they have a guideline that suggests it's okay. And as you state, is within their budget. Mind you, a budget is still important here. We are only talking about reimbursing money that has been spent by contributors. How do you approve things if you don't have a way to do so? 17:57:34 they have no budget though 17:57:47 I agree for a budget, but not a rock solid budget 17:57:48 and yet, we just agreed with you above that they should create one 17:57:58 and submit it 17:58:02 bckurera: budgets aren't ever rock solid 17:58:13 they are honest best estimates 17:58:34 ok I think we can come to some conclusions here 17:58:40 but they encourage planning ahead and responsible spending of limited fund which are both very good things to encourage 17:58:41 I'm not going to tell each region what their budget is, I'm going to ask for their opinion on what they think it should be and then ask for that amount of money from RHT to grant their requests 17:58:59 we ask regions to submit their budget requests and then their process and limits 18:00:22 bckurera: +1, but we need to discuss and vote on this with a quorum. :) 18:00:42 do remember we are all volunteers - this is very hierarchical in structure and doing paperwork isn't going to be done most likely 18:00:58 if they want to be reimbursed it will 18:01:10 don't be bullies 18:01:15 inode0: ?? 18:01:31 really? I don't think this is being a bully to ask for a receipt and a request for reimbursement 18:01:39 how can we pay for something we can't prove? 18:01:47 no, you are now talking about something else entirely 18:01:52 I am? 18:02:05 we ask regions to submit their budget requests and then their process and limits 18:02:30 as for a budget, I think a few people will want to have the budget done so they'll do it. That way they can get a promise of funding, which I think is more than they have been getting. 18:02:51 * herlo also notes that bckurera said 'ask' 18:02:57 we have rules about receipts and reimbursement process already 18:02:59 I don't think that's bullying 18:03:07 inode0: an outdated one, yes. 18:03:17 and if we say no thanks you say then you don't get money? 18:03:22 CommArch doesn't exist. 18:03:26 that was the bully part I felt 18:03:34 inode0: I didn't say anything of the sort, you inferred that 18:03:40 what is required isn't outdated 18:04:05 sure, your remark wasn't in the context of the lines above it 18:04:06 sure it is, who do you submit it to for actual payment if it's not doable by CC? 18:04:29 * herlo notes we are over time, however. 18:04:37 what is not doable by CC 18:04:54 dunno 18:04:55 no one asks for reimbursement of $4000 that wasn't pre-arranged now 18:05:00 agreed 18:05:28 I wasn't even suggesting that, but sometimes people spend $1k and it would need to be reimbursed. In some cases it can't be reimbursed by CC. 18:05:32 I honestly think we are created a rats nest here with the primary goal being just to stop have small requests come to famsco 18:06:06 I'd rather you just give each regions a few thousand to cover small expenses and let them deal with it 18:06:23 Very easy, no new hoops to jump through, no new guidelines to write, etc. 18:07:02 inode0: that part is defintely of interest. The guidelines for reimbursement now state to ask FAmSCo for reimbursement, so I think that's broken for sure. 18:07:23 it will be broken when you don't want to be that last resort 18:07:39 so that is a one-line change to say go ask your regional ambassador group 18:07:40 um, I think we're fine being the *last* resort. Just not the first. 18:08:59 having guidelines of what to reimburse at a certain $$ amount or at a certain type of purchase seems reasonable to me still. if you want to throw themout the window and not use them doesn't mean we won't allow it, but I think there should be a good reason for just throwing out guidelines that could be useful to some regions even if they are not in FAmNA 18:09:40 how about $500 is the US is like $50000 some other places? 18:10:24 I understand that, which is why we're adking the regions to put something together. More brainpower to come up with a better way for each region to handle it. I'd just like to see what they come up with. 18:11:38 ok time is running 18:11:39 I would just give them each a few thousand dollars and let them figure it out without submitting plans for every contingency to famsco first 18:11:45 what would be the conclusion? 18:12:09 be an enabler, not a paperwork mill :) 18:12:29 we have inode0 s' idea so will discuss this with others in the next meeting 18:12:31 inode0: I think we'll have to continue this conversation later... 18:12:36 today we cannt take a decision 18:12:55 * inode0 should get out of the way - everyone should know how he feels at this point 18:13:48 herlo will bring this to mailing list when you finish the guideline 18:13:52 is that ok? 18:14:19 I think we need to come up with a proposal for a request from each region 18:14:26 what we want to request them to do and why 18:15:14 sounds good 18:15:18 can we end meeting then and discuss that next week? 18:15:23 sounds good 18:15:47 okay, ending meeting 18:16:13 #action discuss proposal for reimbursment and regional budget request at next meeting 18:16:18 #endmeeting