17:00:24 <cwickert> #startmeeting FAmSCo 2012-08-27
17:00:24 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Aug 27 17:00:24 2012 UTC.  The chair is cwickert. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:24 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:33 <cwickert> #meetingname famsco
17:00:33 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famsco'
17:00:41 <cwickert> #topic Roll call
17:00:52 <cwickert> .fas cwickert
17:00:53 <zodbot> cwickert: cwickert 'Christoph Wickert' <christoph.wickert@googlemail.com>
17:00:56 <sesivany> .fas eischmann
17:00:56 <zodbot> sesivany: eischmann 'Jiri Eischmann' <eischmann@redhat.com>
17:01:23 <cwickert> #chair cwickert sesivany bckurera nb rbergeron
17:01:23 <zodbot> Current chairs: bckurera cwickert nb rbergeron sesivany
17:01:44 * cwickert looks at the people who sent regrets
17:02:05 * rbergeron waves
17:02:29 <sesivany> people are going home from FUDCon
17:02:32 <rbergeron> suehle is en route.
17:02:37 <cwickert> #info aeperez and danielbruno are traveling back from FUDCon, so they are unable to attend
17:02:47 <cwickert> #info herlo sent regrets, too
17:03:08 <cwickert> that means that everybody else his here
17:03:24 <cwickert> bckurera, nb: ping, wave your hands please :)
17:03:54 * rbergeron hops around
17:04:03 <cwickert> ok, lets just move on
17:04:12 <cwickert> #topic Announcements
17:04:38 <cwickert> #info I have rsuehle access to FAmSCo trac
17:04:45 <cwickert> #undo
17:04:45 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x2bc99850>
17:04:51 <cwickert> #info I have given rsuehle access to FAmSCo trac
17:04:55 <cwickert> that's better
17:05:07 <bckurera> hello
17:05:21 <cwickert> hi bckurera, nice to see you
17:05:35 <cwickert> the agenda for today's meeting is at https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/report/9
17:05:36 * bckurera same here, nice to see you all
17:05:44 <rbergeron> cwickert: we might consider giving lh access as well as a payment backup, but we can tackle that later in meeting if we'd like
17:06:06 <cwickert> rbergeron: sure, if she has a fas account
17:06:27 <rbergeron> cwickert: it's lh :)
17:06:40 <rbergeron> .fasinfo lh
17:06:41 <zodbot> rbergeron: User: lh, Name: Leslie Hawthorn, email: mebelh@gmail.com, Creation: 2012-06-19, IRC Nick: None, Timezone: UTC, Locale: C, GPG key ID: None, Status: active
17:06:44 <zodbot> rbergeron: Approved Groups: ambassadors marketing cla_done cla_fpca
17:06:55 * cwickert things that 2 letter fas account names should be forbidden :)
17:07:01 <cwickert> s/things/thinks
17:07:12 * rbergeron was honestly surprised that it was available
17:07:31 <cwickert> I'd like to discuss all budget related things today as we have a very special guest
17:07:38 <cwickert> everybody give rbergeron a warm welcome
17:07:59 <sesivany> hi, rbergeron :)
17:08:07 <cwickert> the tickets in question are #279, #281 and #296
17:08:11 <rbergeron> LOL ... yes, hug me before we talk about budget, before you lay into me :)
17:08:14 * rbergeron grins
17:08:15 <rbergeron> sure
17:08:22 <cwickert> :)
17:08:39 <cwickert> #topic Budget Allocation for FY2012
17:08:44 <cwickert> .famsco 279
17:08:44 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/279
17:08:46 <rbergeron> okay, so a few things in this ticket:
17:08:58 <cwickert> welcome suehle
17:09:00 <rbergeron> #1 there is questions about how to divide it up for this year, and then questions re: last year's spending.
17:09:07 <rbergeron> anything else i'm missing specific to 279?
17:09:19 <suehle> cwickert: hello!
17:09:39 <cwickert> #279 is basically about how to divide the budget locally
17:09:56 <cwickert> and that means we need to the numbers of last year, otherwise it's pointless
17:09:59 <rbergeron> okay. So you're specifically talking about the regional support portion of the budget.
17:10:01 <cwickert> to we have such numbers?
17:10:04 <cwickert> right
17:10:18 <rbergeron> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Community_Architecture_expenses (/me will probably redirect this to OSAS expenses at some point)
17:10:23 <cwickert> I mean, do we have *realiable* numbers
17:10:51 <rbergeron> cwickert: no. nor do we have them for the first quarter of this year.
17:10:58 <rbergeron> I can try and guess, but it's going to suck.
17:11:31 <cwickert> if we don't have any numbers, I think we should not try to make local budgets
17:11:46 <cwickert> I mean, we have a new situation in many ways
17:11:57 <cwickert> 1. we had the fuckup last year
17:12:07 <cwickert> 2. we have a new team to deal with the budget
17:12:09 <bckurera> you mean 2012 Q1?
17:12:19 <rbergeron> cwickert: yes. I spent some time speaking with the ambassadors from latam over the weekend at fudcon (if you saw my blogpost).
17:12:26 <cwickert> 3. we have suehle now taking care of budget
17:12:31 <cwickert> bckurera: ?
17:12:40 <rbergeron> bckurera: fiscal 2013, q1. So basically: march - may 31 of 2012.
17:12:53 <rbergeron> is the Q1 I was referring to.
17:13:02 <bckurera> hmmm for APAC we have reliable numbers
17:13:11 <rbergeron> bckurera: where are they published
17:13:14 <cwickert> we probably should look at an older revision of the wiki page, https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Community_Architecture_expenses&oldid=271754
17:13:25 <bckurera> wait a minute
17:13:29 <rbergeron> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Community_Architecture_expenses lists the total amount spent in q1 of this year.
17:13:35 <rbergeron> and explains dates, etc.
17:14:42 <bckurera> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/APAC/Budget
17:14:45 <rbergeron> bckurera: as far as i can tell, nobody has submitted expenses for anything in apac since around the beginning of june. if they are paying them, then i don't know where they are being transferred to, wor what is going on.
17:15:15 <bckurera> Harish is paying for them, but we approve them on our meetings
17:15:15 <sesivany> rbergeron: there are still no expenses on EMEA media?
17:15:39 <bckurera> those are the records for APAC which APAC members approved.
17:15:47 <rbergeron> bckurera: he hasn't transferred any of those expenses to the department which pays for fedora stuff.
17:16:16 <rbergeron> sesivany: hold a moment :)
17:16:23 <rbergeron> bckurera: I will talk to harish and find out what is up with all of these.
17:16:25 <bckurera> better contact Harish and check, but those should be the approved requests and amounts
17:16:32 <rbergeron> it looks like many of those are not even reimbursed anyway.
17:17:18 <bckurera> the wiki is maintained by me, but there are some payments to add to the wiki
17:17:41 <bckurera> i waited for the requestees confirmation so i missed some
17:17:45 <rbergeron> sesivany: the media expenses for F17 went to commarch, because that's where (I hope) the PO was against (CC709). So that is included in the Q1 $16,978 number that we have no idea how it was spent.
17:17:52 <bckurera> I can update it by digging apac trac
17:18:26 <rbergeron> for both the POs (US and EMEA). Other media reimbursements that were via paypal to people in latam are showing though.
17:18:27 <bckurera> rbergeron : I ll complete those and send you the numbers soon this week, hope it will help you
17:18:38 <sesivany> rbergeron: are we supposed to send Fedora expenses somewhere else now?
17:19:36 <rbergeron> sesivany: yes.
17:19:40 <rbergeron> sesivany: http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/famsco/2012-July/001111.html
17:20:03 <rbergeron> sesivany: I will send a more pointed email I suppose to people who need to transfer things around.
17:20:28 <rbergeron> sesivany: CC860 (carl trieloff's cost center) is where it all gets billed now.
17:20:36 <rbergeron> cwickert: so I guess to come back to your main point:
17:20:55 <rbergeron> cwickert: I think if each region had some predictions about what they need for the rest of the year, that would make the division a little easier, also.
17:21:05 <rbergeron> at least big ticket items like events, etc.
17:21:05 <sesivany> rbergeron: CC860, got it. gonna tell our bookkeeper tomo.
17:21:19 <cwickert> my main question is: does it make sense to attempt is this year?
17:21:39 <cwickert> I mean, we never ever worked with local budgets, so far we had FAmSCo have an eye on it
17:21:40 <rbergeron> cwickert: I think it would help us to work out the bugs as a beta test of next year :)
17:22:05 <bckurera> agree with robyn +1
17:22:33 <sesivany> I think we should try it too
17:22:38 <bckurera> we can plan for the next Q and will see how it works !
17:22:43 <cwickert> frankly speaking I am concerned we have too many changes at the moment, everything is in flux and we'll add another source of error
17:23:16 <cwickert> bckurera: not really, if we make a local division, it needs to cover the whole FY
17:23:34 <cwickert> because the events are not distributed evenly throughout the year
17:23:55 <rbergeron> cwickert: I think we run into the "we have no idea who needs to spend money so nobody spends it" because they don't want to screw others over.
17:24:44 <cwickert> to start local budgets, there is a few preconditions that need to be sorted out
17:24:54 <rbergeron> the budget got set for 167k, vs. the 148 we started with.
17:24:59 <cwickert> 1. division of the budget, that requires figures of last year
17:25:18 <cwickert> 2. somebody who has an eye on the budget regionally
17:25:20 <bckurera> cwickert : I think our goal is to see how regions going to handle their budget, so we can ask them to request a budget for next Q and we can see how smart they are (managing the budget)
17:25:56 <cwickert> 3. some kind of reporting infrastructure, otherwise it will be impossible for suehle to track things
17:25:59 <rbergeron> we aren't going to get figures of last year. unless we guess. that is it. i have screamed, i have begged, and the answer i have is "we won't get it from the previous owner"
17:26:25 <rbergeron> so we can either take a guess, or we can ask people to predict and look at last year's individual wiki pages for events, tickets for swag, and go from there.
17:26:27 <cwickert> should we try with older numbers then?
17:26:41 <cwickert> I mean, we should have figures for say 2011
17:27:01 <rbergeron> cwickert: my fear is that apac and latam are growing a lot, and old numbers for them are basically screwing them over.
17:27:19 <bckurera> agree with it
17:27:36 <rbergeron> if we are fucked for the rest of the year and don't have the money to cover what we need, i'd rather see people say "look, we cna't do everything we need to do, and here is the list of things we need to do", becuase me saying, "we just don't have enough but i can't tell you why" isn't going to get me anything.
17:27:44 <cwickert> rbergeron: everybody is screwed given that the budget was cut dramatically
17:27:55 <rbergeron> cwickert: yes, but it is up 20k from what it was previously.
17:28:05 <rbergeron> because i went and argued that it wasn't even enough to cover what I laid out on the wiki.
17:28:10 * cwickert cannot parse that sentence
17:28:16 <bckurera> we can ask them to request their expectations so that we can decide finally what is the quota !
17:28:29 <cwickert> bckurera: who is "them"?
17:28:48 <rbergeron> each region should be able to coordinate what they are expecting for the rest of the year to some extent or another.
17:29:10 <bckurera> them=regions
17:29:14 <cwickert> I don't think anybody in EMEA could do that
17:29:16 <rbergeron> and if any region wants to go crazy and do something epic, i would be happy to take those requests and kiss ass to mgmt with those as well. ie: beer and fedora mugs at fosdem, or whatever.
17:29:46 <rbergeron> cwickert: sure emea has at least a guess of what events are important?
17:30:03 <rbergeron> plus extra for shipping, release parties, the normal cost of media, swag refills?
17:30:12 <cwickert> nope
17:30:29 <cwickert> I mean, we have a list of events, but no budget for them
17:30:42 <cwickert> or when it comes to swag, the answer is simple: we have none
17:30:44 <rbergeron> it doesn't have to be perfect, it just needs to be ballpark / very generous estimate
17:31:08 <cwickert> I think that every estimate will be worse than just taking old numbers
17:31:17 <rbergeron> okay
17:31:32 <cwickert> not sure about other regions, but in EMEA we are pretty much doing business as usual
17:31:37 <rbergeron> well, so that's one problem to tackle.
17:31:41 <rbergeron> everyone else is doing business as usual.
17:31:42 <sesivany> rbergeron: media are fairly easy to estimate, shipping not very, some destinations such as Central Africa are hell expensive and we never know how many deliveries were gonna have there.
17:32:04 <rbergeron> sesivany: yep. I just guessed at large numbers for shipping, by looking at old numbers from past years.
17:32:11 <rbergeron> and adding more on. :)
17:32:22 <cwickert> ok, lets just try to get a little more structured here
17:32:25 <rbergeron> cwickert: so, do you want to move on, or?
17:32:31 <cwickert> 1. who wants local budgets?
17:32:52 * rbergeron will push that if nobody else does, i already pushed latam to come up with some info by the end of the month.
17:32:52 <cwickert> should we just try or delay it for another year?
17:33:12 <sesivany> cwickert: I'd give it a try.
17:33:14 <bckurera> I support a local budget and decision making process.
17:33:21 <cwickert> ok, fine
17:33:28 <bckurera> I would like to give it a try in next Q
17:33:29 <cwickert> then next question is the division
17:33:34 <rbergeron> cwickert: i think if we start trying for next year, we might have something by the time the budget for next year gets set in dec/january.
17:33:47 <rbergeron> which means then I can actually argue for stuff.
17:34:09 <rbergeron> it's not really arguing, either, right now. :)
17:34:09 <cwickert> I don't think we should try to figure out the details of the division in this meeting but instead ask regions for input first
17:34:16 <cwickert> agreed?
17:34:28 <bckurera> yup agreed
17:34:38 <cwickert> we need to set a deadline and then see what we have
17:34:46 <sesivany> +1
17:34:54 <cwickert> the next question then is: who manages the budgets regionally?
17:35:15 <cwickert> CC holders? somebody else?
17:35:21 <bckurera> local FAms manages it locally
17:35:36 <bckurera> ahhh sorry got it wrong
17:35:41 <cwickert> I want to hear names now :)
17:35:45 <cwickert> one name per region
17:36:05 <rbergeron> to report in to famsco you mean
17:36:07 <bckurera> I think it is better to take by FAmSCo member for the region
17:36:35 <sesivany> cwickert: it could be either me or you for EMEA. at least it looks like :)
17:36:36 <bckurera> if there is no one then some from the region should take the responsibility
17:36:44 <cwickert> rbergeron: to keep track of things, to attend the regional meetings and to report
17:37:03 * rbergeron nods
17:37:05 <cwickert> reporting goes two ways: to famsco and to the local communities
17:37:07 <bckurera> Reporting accounts is a must and the responsibility !
17:37:24 <cwickert> they must be aware of what is left when they want to approve something in their IRC meetings
17:37:35 <bckurera> Reporting:Best things is to maintain a wiki page with all info
17:37:59 <cwickert> lets first talk about the persons, then about the technical details
17:38:13 <cwickert> so we have bckurera for APAC
17:38:22 <cwickert> sesivany for EMEA
17:38:23 <bckurera> no problem for that
17:38:26 * cwickert is too busy atm
17:38:45 * suehle is having ridonkulous wifi problems, so if there was something I should have answered, I probably didn't see it. :(
17:38:54 <cwickert> suehle: don't worry
17:39:08 <sesivany> cwickert: no problem, I've already gotten used to getting more work on my shoulders :)
17:39:47 <cwickert> #info regional budgets will be handled by bckurera for APAC and sesivany for EMEA. still looking for people for NA and LATAM
17:40:01 * rbergeron suspects aeperezt might be willing for LATAM, I don't know if herlo can do it for NA, maybe inode0 can, or if not, myself or suehle can. either way, I'd like to make sure there is some understanding of how it gets reported so I can keep track of it as well.
17:40:16 <cwickert> ok, we'll figure that out, too
17:40:19 <cwickert> next is reporting
17:40:36 <cwickert> bckurera suggested a wiki page, but I think it's on suehle to decide
17:40:54 <sesivany> I think aeperezt is definitely a good candidate for LATAM, but we should ask him first of course.
17:40:57 <cwickert> suehle: how would you like to see reporting done? what is easiest for you?
17:41:07 * suehle ponders
17:41:11 <bckurera> I m ok with anything but i ll keep maintaining the wiki as before
17:41:30 <suehle> is there something you think would be better than the wiki (general you)?
17:41:39 * cwickert thinks trac is best
17:41:48 <cwickert> rbergeron and I already worked on something
17:41:51 * rbergeron thinks that suehle and herself can work with the regional budget owners to agree on something, though she thinks that trac would be good
17:41:52 <cwickert> have a look at https://fedorahosted.org/draftbudget/query?status=accepted&status=approved&status=assigned&status=closed&status=new&status=paid&status=readyforpayment&status=reopened&budgetgroup=Regional+Spending&milestone=Q1+FY13&group=component&col=id&col=summary&col=milestone&col=status&col=type&col=priority&col=component&col=actualcost&report=14&order=priority
17:42:08 <rbergeron> suehle: i can explain the trac to you on phone maybe tomorrow? we can see what works.
17:42:08 <bckurera> a separate trac is ideal
17:42:14 <suehle> My only trac resistance is being unfamiliar, but I'm a reasonably smart grownup who can learn. And it seems more... track-y than a wiki.
17:42:21 <suehle> rbergeron: that would be fine
17:42:37 <rbergeron> bckurera: yes, but we need to figure out how to make sure that people are requesting in the right place, not request here, reimburse there, etc.
17:43:04 <bckurera> I have an idea, we can keep trac per region as we are doing now
17:43:04 <cwickert> suehle: the advantage os trac is that it can do math for you :) you can generate reports and all that
17:43:09 <rbergeron> people who do reimbursing need to be able to know about all the tickets without looking in 10 places or else we miss things, and it's hard for us to know when people show up at events and say "your'e supposed to pay for my room!" if we can't easily find the stuff.
17:43:32 <bckurera> ppl who manage budget can report via another trac to Suehle
17:43:48 <rbergeron> and we need to make sure we report in the quarters where the stuff got reimbursed / paid
17:43:49 <cwickert> I think suehle only should have to look at one trac
17:44:15 <rbergeron> i guess one question is: do we just want a trac to literally do "accounting" or do we want it to also be a place to submit/request/complete reimbursements?
17:44:30 <cwickert> hold on
17:44:38 * rbergeron holds
17:44:39 <suehle> cwickert: I'm a fan of not doing math :)
17:45:13 <cwickert> I think we first should agree that all budget should be centrally in one trac, right? then we can easily get out all the numbers from there, say the regional spendings etc
17:45:16 <cwickert> agreed?
17:45:38 <rbergeron> cwickert: yes, for the love of god
17:45:47 <cwickert> ok, the question is: should we also have the requests in there or only the pure figures
17:45:49 <sesivany> +1
17:46:15 <cwickert> I mean, should we allow every ambassador to work with it or just the regional budget wranglers and CC owners?
17:46:18 <bckurera> figures only for accounting with the region
17:46:37 <sesivany> cwickert: i think that's what regional tracs are for.
17:46:38 <bckurera> not ever FAm only ppl who are responsible
17:46:48 <cwickert> sesivany, bckurera: +1
17:46:50 <rbergeron> cwickert: mehhhhhhhhhhhhh. the whole "share your info" thing sucks.
17:46:51 <bckurera> sesivany +1
17:46:59 * rbergeron may have a proposal that she can send in mail?
17:47:06 <cwickert> rbergeron: sure
17:47:44 <cwickert> but generally I think people still should file requests in their local trac. there it gets discussed and approved
17:48:02 <rbergeron> basically: someone requests stuff in local trac for local meeting, once approved locally then requestor can add it to budget trac as "approved for spending," and request reimbursement as receipts come, etc.
17:48:12 <bckurera> who are the CC holders per regions?
17:48:31 <rbergeron> bckurera: john rose for NA (inode0), yn1v (neville) for latam, joerg for EMEA, nobody for apac right now.
17:48:38 <cwickert> bckurera: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Reimbursements
17:48:44 <bckurera> Harish is for APAC
17:48:48 <cwickert> right
17:48:53 <bckurera> we can continue it
17:49:10 <bckurera> only the reporting structure get altered
17:49:18 * rbergeron would like to get additional CC holders, maybe someone in apac, is also going to see if she can get sesivany at least a card where he doesn't have to wait to get to $1000 to transfer, that would bill directly to CC860 (work just like a community card), maybe.
17:49:41 <rbergeron> bckurera: harish has to agree to wanting to do that. he will have to follow the same things i do; can only transfer once he gets to $1000 USD to another department
17:49:53 <cwickert> ok, seems we pretty much agree on all of this
17:50:01 <rbergeron> and his isn't a community card, he's a red hat employee.
17:50:03 <cwickert> we just need to work out the details
17:50:21 <rbergeron> the point of the community cards, among other reasons, was to get rid of points of failure and let people in community be able to do things without waiting on a red hat person
17:50:22 <cwickert> hahaha, "he is a credit card" :)
17:50:37 <rbergeron> cwickert: you get my point
17:50:37 <rbergeron> ;)
17:50:41 <bckurera> I m confused, atm Harish pays for APAC , am I right?
17:51:00 <rbergeron> bckurera: well, yes, though what has been paid lately
17:51:07 <sesivany> I have a redhat card, but it's tied to my cost center, quite difficult to transfer it to CC860.
17:51:09 <rbergeron> bckurera: he can, or others can as well.
17:51:49 <rbergeron> sesivany: yeah, so I am trying to figure out if we could get one that just goes straight to 860 for you, if you wanted that. just trying to see what our options are right now. :)
17:51:59 <bckurera> we use western union transfer a lot here
17:52:06 <bckurera> so want to make sure it is possible yet
17:52:32 <rbergeron> bckurera: yeah, and harish has to front the cash for that. so we now have someone who can do wire transfers from an account, so harish or myself or suehle don't have to dig into their own checking accounts to reimburse.
17:52:51 <rbergeron> anyway.
17:52:54 <sesivany> rbergeron: I know it will mean more work for me again, but whatever someone has to do it. So if there is any way to get a community card for me I agree.
17:52:56 <bckurera> that is good !
17:53:25 <rbergeron> cwickert: i will propose a workflow by tomorrow to famsco list, or can copy ambassadors as well.
17:53:35 <rbergeron> and will teach suehle the ways of trac
17:54:03 <suehle> weee
17:54:03 <cwickert> rbergeron: cool
17:54:14 <cwickert> I think that's all for this ticket
17:54:26 <cwickert> but there is another one I'd like to quickly discuss
17:54:26 * rbergeron notes for all that anything we now pay is going to fall into Q3... that could probably be an announcement
17:54:33 <rbergeron> :)
17:54:39 <cwickert> #topic Review of process for FADs and such Premier Events
17:54:44 <cwickert> .famsco 296
17:54:46 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/296
17:55:06 <cwickert> so, premier events are paid from a different budget
17:55:18 <cwickert> the premier events budget (what a surprise) ;)
17:55:22 <rbergeron> okay, so, my thought on this one is: fads and fudcons always had their budgets set by commarch, it was always an "ask max" type of thing
17:55:25 <rbergeron> shocking :)
17:55:25 <rbergeron> tell me more!
17:55:29 <cwickert> hold on
17:55:59 <cwickert> who did it in the past. the wiki just says "the budget owner", but not all regions have one
17:56:11 <rbergeron> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_organize_a_FAD
17:56:26 <rbergeron> which wiki page are you referring to?
17:56:30 <cwickert> I guess budget owner boiled down to Max most of the time
17:56:50 <rbergeron> Yeah. He always set fudcons at 20 or 15k, fads were kind of "come ask me and i'll tell you, but usually 3k or less"
17:57:27 <rbergeron> and then the person organizing fudcon or fad would work within that budget and own the "budget" for that premier event
17:57:54 <cwickert> mmmhh
17:57:59 <rbergeron> I tihnk given the flux here, we can continue to use that, though if people want to file them through famsco and famsco just ... calls robyn and ruth then we can just say yes, I suppose.
17:58:42 <sesivany> rbergeron: that sounds good to me.
17:58:54 <rbergeron> I think moving at least fads out would be useful in the future (and letting famsco make the decisions) but it still will be a "well, we don't want to approve because we don't know what else is planned for the year" ... so it's a place where we will always be able to go and ask for more.
17:59:40 <cwickert> I wonder if we really need a different process for FADs
17:59:59 <cwickert> why not have FADs handled by the local communities just like everything else?
18:00:06 <rbergeron> cwickert: the only thing i would say about fads is that I am less inclined to approve fads that aren't accomplishing things.
18:00:14 <rbergeron> cwickert: because many, many fads are not "local"
18:00:14 <cwickert> or is there a real benefit in having a budget owner?
18:00:41 <sesivany> cwickert: it might be related to the next ticket. Limits for approvals.
18:00:49 <rbergeron> some are, but they're designed to "solve problems" / "fix things" and a lot of time - infra, marketing, packaging a thing, implementing something, etc. - they are cross-region.
18:01:13 <rbergeron> I do'nt want to say "no, you can't go, because you're not close enough" if someone can solve something, and i do'nt want people arguing over which region it comes from, etc.
18:01:13 <sesivany> cwickert: if the event makes it in the limit then let regions or FAmSCo decide.
18:01:20 <cwickert> ok, then we'll keep the budget owners
18:01:28 <rbergeron> does that make sense, what i'm saying?
18:01:47 <cwickert> I guess my confusion was caused by the fact that I thought the budget owner was per region, not per event
18:01:53 <rbergeron> I would prefer to see fads not be "day where 4 people from here teach people about fedora"
18:02:07 <cwickert> absolutely
18:02:20 <sesivany> rbergeron: yeah, I still think it should be in the separate process. there are not so many premium events.
18:02:21 <cwickert> but this is a different story and we have already improved a lot
18:02:26 <rbergeron> maybe there is a better name for that, and I think they can be valueable (maybe on a smaller budget)...
18:02:44 <cwickert> yes, we'll deal with it another time
18:02:46 <rbergeron> anyway.
18:02:46 <rbergeron> yes
18:03:12 <rbergeron> so shall i update https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_organize_a_FAD to say "osas" instead of community architecture
18:03:13 <sesivany> rbergeron: GSDD ("Get shit done" Day) :-)
18:03:19 <rbergeron> sesivany: hell yes :)
18:03:27 <cwickert> so for premier events we'll continue with the budget owners, where "budget owner" means somebody from the organizer team
18:03:43 <cwickert> works for me, we just need somebody to codify it in the wiki properly
18:03:52 <cwickert> any volunteers?
18:03:56 * cwickert hides
18:04:02 <rbergeron> yes. and the total budget is set by osas. the question is do we want to have people still request fads through famsco or just beep at osas directly (maybe a separate public ticket queue?)
18:04:20 <rbergeron> I will write the wiki shit.
18:04:28 <rbergeron> i think i just said i would anyway :)
18:04:50 <sesivany> will people have to file them against FAmSCo and FAmSCo will ask rbergeron or suehle?
18:05:25 <rbergeron> sesivany: or we could make a separate component in famsco trac. I just don't want people feeling like it's not transparent to see who is doing/requesting, etc.
18:05:37 * bckurera reading all ideas, there are lot
18:05:38 <rbergeron> or feel like they're sending us mail when we're out for a week and that we're failing them in responding.
18:06:23 <rbergeron> would prefer to just have a list of fads that people have requested, publicly known, one place, and know how to request them, and not have to know magically how to contact us or be confused about it.
18:07:07 <sesivany> rbergeron: there should be a wiki page with the list of FADs, not really up-to-date though.
18:07:20 <rbergeron> sesivany: yep.
18:07:29 <rbergeron> or it is, and we're just not doin gthem as much, which is a separate problem :)
18:07:43 <rbergeron> or the problem of "don't know how to request one" so people aren't having them
18:08:06 <rbergeron> okay, I think we beat that one to death. I will take care of my actions there.
18:08:07 <sesivany> rbergeron: they can file a ticket against FAmSCo, then it goes to you or suehle and once it's approved the owner adds it to the list, with budget and everything>
18:08:12 * rbergeron nods
18:09:10 * cwickert needs to bail out now, at least for 10 minutes
18:09:22 <cwickert> brb
18:09:29 <rbergeron> lol
18:10:16 * rbergeron notes she has updated the https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Community_Architecture_expenses page to be up to date until early last week - I have some other items to add in there - I think now that we are at a clean start for Q3 this quarter shoudl go more smoothly
18:10:21 <sesivany> should we have a quick pee break? :-)
18:10:50 <rbergeron> lol
18:10:52 <rbergeron> it's a bio break :)
18:12:43 * sesivany has given up the hope that he will get from work soon enough to find an open grocery. So he doesn't hurry and can wait for 10 min :)
18:13:26 * rbergeron grins
18:13:36 <rbergeron> si there anything else anyone is unclear on WRT budget?
18:13:42 <rbergeron> other wiki pages that need updating?
18:16:21 <bckurera> It is about to mid night here
18:16:26 <bckurera> so I wanna leave now
18:16:36 <bckurera> I ll read the logs, thanks for the great meeting
18:16:46 <bckurera> and attending for the meeting :)
18:17:58 <cwickert> re
18:18:51 <cwickert> I think the last ticket we should discuss is 281
18:18:56 * sesivany did a bio break and ready to continue
18:18:59 <cwickert> #topuc Budget review guidelines
18:19:02 <cwickert> erm
18:19:05 <cwickert> #topic Budget review guidelines
18:19:13 <cwickert> .famsco 281
18:19:13 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/281
18:19:51 <cwickert> I wonder if we really should discuss this now
18:20:00 <cwickert> because it's another can of worms
18:20:17 * rbergeron notes that it's really for everything more like over 2k USD that we need a PO. and yes, worms, another meeting might be best?
18:20:34 <cwickert> how about we try to solve the things we discussed already, I think many other problems are much clearer then
18:20:48 <cwickert> rbergeron: can you please add a comment about the 2k?
18:20:54 <sesivany> rbergeron: yeah, that was my question last time because I know it's only 2k here, too.
18:21:11 <rbergeron> cwickert: yes
18:21:32 <suehle> rbergeron: we need PO for over 1k
18:21:35 <cwickert> then then we end this meeting and wait for your proposal to solve all problems and bring us world peace
18:21:41 <suehle> I've gotten handslapped twice now for it
18:21:49 <rbergeron> suehle: finance has usually given us leeway on it
18:21:53 <rbergeron> suehle: i will talk to them
18:22:10 <suehle> I'd just hate for them to stop being nice one day :)
18:22:12 <rbergeron> suehle: becuase we have things like hotels and etc. where we can't, and they typically don't want to add new things to the system either if we're only using the vendor once
18:22:22 <bckurera> for APAC we will go with low figures since the difference in regions
18:22:39 <suehle> ah yes
18:23:05 <bckurera> hello aeperezt welcome :)
18:23:06 <rbergeron> suehle: they've been nice and letting us do 2k for years, i think it's the "they don't know why this new cost center is doing this" becuase ... i think it was not explained to them the way i requested, shockingly
18:23:11 * rbergeron sighs
18:23:23 <aeperezt> bckurera, helo
18:23:25 * bckurera another 4 mins to midnight I m sleepy :)
18:23:37 <aeperezt> rbergeron, helo
18:23:41 <rbergeron> hi
18:23:49 <sesivany> ok, let's discuss this next time?
18:23:52 <cwickert> +1
18:23:53 <rbergeron> sesivany: +1
18:23:59 <bckurera> please +1
18:24:10 <cwickert> ok, looking forward to rbergeron's world peace proposal
18:24:22 <bckurera> yeah me too
18:24:41 <sesivany> all aeperezt needs to know is that he's gonna be a treasurer for LATAM :)
18:24:42 <rbergeron> cwickert: HAH
18:24:55 <bckurera> rbergeron suehle  : I ll finalize those figures and see you with in this week
18:25:01 <suehle> groovy
18:25:12 <cwickert> suehle: the important thing for you to remember is: tell us what you need to make your live easy, ok? if there is one way of reporting you prefer over another, just let us know
18:26:15 <bckurera> shall we finish the meeting then pls?
18:26:35 <suehle> cwickert: I think I just don't know what I want yet. But I'll let you know if that changes. :)
18:27:02 <suehle> (I'm also a flexible person who sometimes forgets to try to fix problems instead of living with them.)
18:27:34 <aeperezt> sesivany, ?
18:28:35 <sesivany> aeperezt: read the logs later, too long to explain and bckurera wants to go to bed ;)
18:28:48 <aeperezt> sesivany, ok +1
18:28:55 <cwickert> #endmeeting