17:07:14 <cwickert> #startmeeting FAmSCo 2012-06-17
17:07:14 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Sep 17 17:07:14 2012 UTC.  The chair is cwickert. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:07:14 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:07:24 <cwickert> #meetingname famsco
17:07:24 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famsco'
17:07:31 <cwickert> #topic Roll call
17:07:36 <sesivany> .fas eischmann
17:07:36 <zodbot> sesivany: eischmann 'Jiri Eischmann' <eischmann@redhat.com>
17:07:37 <cwickert> .fas cwickert
17:07:39 <zodbot> cwickert: cwickert 'Christoph Wickert' <christoph.wickert@googlemail.com>
17:07:54 <sesivany> cwickert: almost no one here today :-(
17:07:57 <aeperezt> .fas aeperezt
17:07:57 <zodbot> aeperezt: aeperezt 'Alejandro Perez' <alejandro.perez.torres@gmail.com>
17:08:06 <cwickert> #chair cwickert sesivany aeperezt nb nb_ herlo
17:08:06 <zodbot> Current chairs: aeperezt cwickert herlo nb nb_ sesivany
17:08:08 <herlo> good morning
17:08:10 <sesivany> cwickert: but our FPL is with us! :)
17:08:25 <aeperezt> helo rbergeron
17:09:38 * rbergeron is here. though she is going to grab a snack from the fridge before y'all hear my belly screaming
17:09:45 <aeperezt> hello inode0
17:09:51 <inode0> hi everyone
17:09:58 * herlo can't wait for belly screaming!
17:10:01 <nb> hi
17:10:08 <nb> o.fas nick@bebout
17:10:11 <nb> .fas nick@bebout
17:10:12 <zodbot> nb: nb 'Nick Bebout' <nick@bebout.net>
17:10:25 <rbergeron> herlo: you don't wnat to hear that :)
17:10:41 <herlo> rbergeron: oh, it's bad? I was hoping for tribal calls or something
17:10:42 <cwickert> ok, lets start
17:11:04 <cwickert> meeting agenda is at https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/report/9
17:11:49 * cwickert wonders where the logs from last week's meeting are
17:12:20 <cwickert> there they are http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-2/2012-09-10/famsco.2012-09-10-17.02.html
17:12:33 <cwickert> so, we need to get back to the budget thing
17:13:02 <cwickert> .famsco 281
17:13:02 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/281
17:13:04 <rbergeron> the what thing? oh, that
17:13:12 <cwickert> #toipc Budget review guidelines
17:13:15 <cwickert> #topic Budget review guidelines
17:13:34 <cwickert> rbergeron: you wanted to send out a mail on that you drafted, right?
17:14:16 * herlo notes he has a hard stop at the top of the next hour
17:14:34 <rbergeron> yeah, and i am full of fail, and the further I got in, the further I was like... thinking it's not best to start off with something massively complicated.
17:14:52 <rbergeron> i just need a place to track things. where we can say, "here is where my stuff was approved, here is where the money got spent" or "i need my reimbursement"
17:14:54 <cwickert> so, where do we start?
17:15:05 <rbergeron> I think if we can do that solidly for a quarter, we can integrate things like planning.
17:15:32 <rbergeron> so I think taking draft-budget and adding a box for "referring trac" - and I need to know ALL the tracs - that's a good place.
17:16:01 <rbergeron> And then we just need to be sure that people are taking ownership ofr moving a ticket from "requested or approved" in a trac, to "pasted into a trac" so someone can check a box and say, paid.
17:16:08 <rbergeron> or for you guys to say, that's stupid, why not use what we have.
17:16:18 <rbergeron> (though the answer is: too much falls through the cracks, IMO)
17:16:38 * bckurera hello all, I m bit late :)
17:17:13 <cwickert> comments, questions?
17:17:35 * herlo misunderstands a few things
17:17:49 * cwickert is not sure if he understands anything
17:17:56 <rbergeron> i may be entirely off-base.
17:18:04 <herlo> what si the 'reference trac'
17:18:05 <herlo> ?
17:18:09 * sesivany agrees with cwickert :)
17:18:10 * rbergeron has been in shitty health
17:18:14 <rbergeron> referencing trac
17:18:25 <herlo> referring trac, rather
17:18:26 <rbergeron> ie: if we approve something in famna and someone needs something paid
17:18:36 <sesivany> rbergeron: for suehle?
17:18:54 <rbergeron> I would like to see one centralized place where we (a) note it is paid, (b) ask for it to be paid, (c) taking other suggestions
17:18:59 <rbergeron> sesivany: well, and for me
17:19:24 <cwickert> herlo: we have one central budget trac, but it's only for the budget. from every ticket we need a link to the trac with all the details and the decision making process
17:19:25 <rbergeron> hopefully less me and more her in the future
17:19:35 <sesivany> rbergeron: so a separate trac for "accounting", right?
17:19:36 <herlo> cwickert: right, I get that
17:19:40 <rbergeron> yes, basically, accounting.
17:19:47 <rbergeron> trac can add.
17:19:49 <herlo> I was just trying to understand what she was meaning by referring trac
17:19:51 <rbergeron> we ought to use that feature. :)
17:20:12 <cwickert> so, I wonder where suehle is. I mean, it's on her to say what she needs and I think she should be more active in developing this framework
17:20:42 <bckurera> I dont like that idea, it is like redoing the work
17:20:50 <sesivany> rbergeron: yeah, that sounds reasonable, a trac for communicating between you, suehle and people who handle regional budgets.
17:20:58 <cwickert> bckurera: you agreed to that idea like 2 weeks ago
17:21:17 <bckurera> every region there is someone who is responsible for that he can track it
17:21:44 <bckurera> cwickert I agreed for keeping records but not each and every request in a centralized place
17:21:46 * cwickert feels like we are running in circles
17:22:05 <herlo> bckurera: the centralized place is not FAMSCo
17:22:13 <herlo> which was the issue before imo
17:22:28 <bckurera> ok
17:22:30 <herlo> it's the accounting trac or whatever it's called
17:23:07 <rbergeron> cwickert: she and I just need someplace where we can track the money spent and if things are reimbursed. she's also just coming up to speed on dealing with all of this stuff with finance, etc. which i can assure you is no fun.
17:23:18 <herlo> but it is separate from famsco. Though the accounting trac may link to the famsco or any one of the regional trac instances for 'explanations of expenditures' if I have this right.
17:23:18 <sesivany> bckurera: you have to do that anyway, no matter if you use trac, setup a wikipage, or send requests/reports to FPL or suehle by email.
17:23:45 <cwickert> rbergeron: sure, but it's just frustrating that we are not making progress at all
17:24:57 <cwickert> we need somebody to move this forward and for the central accounting trac, it should be the person who has to work with it most
17:25:00 <rbergeron> and then we have a few additions to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Community_Architecture_expenses to make from the last week of the quarter
17:25:31 <rbergeron> cwickert: that would be ruth and I.
17:25:38 <cwickert> rbergeron: amen
17:26:15 <bckurera> rbergeron : you mean updating bulk, if then that is great :)
17:26:30 <rbergeron> So if you guys have a laundry list of your needs, or you don't want to centralize things, or you think it's too complicated, then knowing that would be good.
17:27:26 <sesivany> bckurera: I think reimbursement could be done once a month in batch.
17:27:32 <cwickert> how do we move forward? I mean like we have real measurable progress within the next 2-4 weeks?
17:27:40 * sesivany really doesn't know, has never done that.
17:28:39 * cwickert waits for suggestions
17:28:58 <rbergeron> i put out a giant mail like 2 months ago and got nothing back from the "do we want a centralized group" angle
17:28:58 <sesivany> cwickert: lets have rbergeron and suehle create the trac and invite people who will deal with it - me, aeperetz, bckurera and someone from NA.
17:29:15 <rbergeron> sesivany: and the regional credit card holders.
17:29:18 <rbergeron> since they can pay things.
17:29:25 <herlo> right, that's what I was going to suggest
17:29:32 <sesivany> rbergeron: yes, forgot about them.
17:30:25 <rbergeron> okay, how about: i will crank on the budget trac this afternoon/tomorrow (it is mostly done) and i will add the famsco folks to take a look and see if it seems reasonable, and get with ruth on it to make sure it will please our other masters.
17:30:42 <herlo> +1
17:30:46 <sesivany> rbergeron: +1
17:30:47 <cwickert> -1
17:30:51 <aeperezt> +
17:30:54 <aeperezt> +1
17:30:56 <nb> +1
17:31:08 <cwickert> I feel the problem is MUCH bigger than just a trac instance
17:31:26 <cwickert> trac is only for accounting, but that is not and never has been our biggest problem
17:31:51 <cwickert> we are having a problem of paying things and approving budget
17:32:06 <rbergeron> cwickert: root cause being?
17:32:17 <rbergeron> paying things as in someone being accountable for doing the reimbursements?
17:32:21 <cwickert> no clearly defined workflow
17:32:38 <rbergeron> am I chaired?
17:32:49 * cwickert cannot parse that sentence
17:32:50 <herlo> rbergeron: I believe so
17:32:52 <bckurera> not in every region I should say
17:32:55 <cwickert> #chair rbergeron
17:32:55 <zodbot> Current chairs: aeperezt cwickert herlo nb nb_ rbergeron sesivany
17:33:04 <rbergeron> #topic Budget & accounting problems
17:33:18 <rbergeron> #idea no clearly defined workflow
17:33:28 <rbergeron> cwickert: is "not sure of money" a huge concern there or less so?
17:33:41 <rbergeron> I know in the past it's been "we cna't approve because we don't know the budget"
17:33:54 <cwickert> I feel this is utterly inefficient to deal with this huge problem in an IRC meeting, how about we do our homework and then meet again?
17:34:07 <rbergeron> okay
17:34:28 <cwickert> I want ALL of us to write a mail listing our key problems and possible solutions
17:34:29 <herlo> rbergeron: before we do that
17:34:35 <rbergeron> that's the only feedback I got previously when trying to dig into this.
17:34:41 <rbergeron> nobody can do anything because nobody knows the money situation.
17:34:43 <herlo> I think we've discussed this previously to great extent
17:34:44 <sesivany> cwickert: I can do that.
17:34:59 <cwickert> sesivany: EVERYBODY should do that
17:35:00 <sesivany> cwickert: from EMEA point of you of course
17:35:10 <rbergeron> so maybe now that the money situation is sorted out a bit (we know the budget, past history is shitty)
17:35:19 <rbergeron> at lesat we have a vague clue.
17:35:21 <bckurera> Not clear this
17:35:49 <bckurera> APAC has some workflow now up and running, what else should do?
17:36:02 <cwickert> bckurera: describe it in the mail
17:36:21 <herlo> rbergeron: this goes back to our discussion at LinuxCon I think. Getting regions to give a budget first can really help
17:36:33 <sesivany> bckurera: do you know how much money you can spend in the next quarters, what's your budget? that's my problem.
17:36:49 <herlo> sesivany: +1
17:36:58 <bckurera> sesivany : Then it is clear :)
17:37:01 <cwickert> please, lets not discuss the issues here, lets just make a big list of problems first
17:37:16 <herlo> cwickert: but we've discussed these same issues at length
17:37:36 <cwickert> I don't think we all agree what we are trying to solve here
17:37:38 <herlo> and I think we all understand the problem, just not very good at coming to a solution
17:38:00 <herlo> cwickert: hmm, okay. Maybe I propose something slightly different then
17:38:32 <herlo> we let you start an email with what you perceive as the issue. We all respond with our concerns and work it out that way? Maybe rbergeron can help clarify things as we go along and help us come to some good resolution?
17:38:40 <cwickert> ok
17:38:51 <cwickert> I'll write that email after that meeting
17:38:52 <herlo> If we all send an email, we have a bunch of threads
17:38:57 <cwickert> +1
17:38:59 <herlo> then we have to combine
17:39:02 <herlo> coolness
17:39:11 <cwickert> we could use the wiki to combine stuff
17:39:17 <sesivany> +1
17:39:18 * rbergeron nods
17:39:27 <cwickert> but I first want to know where we actually are and then we can move forward
17:39:30 <herlo> cwickert: not opposed to that either
17:39:53 <cwickert> ok, lets first start with that mail and then see where it leads us
17:39:53 <herlo> it just feels like I'm hashing out the same things over and over.
17:39:59 <cwickert> same here :)
17:40:11 <cwickert> but still, my problems are different from your problems
17:40:32 <herlo> I think our problems are the same, but the solutions can/could be different
17:40:39 <herlo> but I'm happy to discuss on ml
17:40:54 <cwickert> ok, anything else we should do in this meeting then?
17:41:12 <bckurera> ok
17:41:19 <sesivany> cwickert: yes
17:41:33 <bckurera> I would like to raise about FUDcon
17:41:43 <bckurera> what would be the situation now?
17:42:07 <bckurera> since rbergeron is here it is good to take this.
17:42:33 <herlo> should we switch to open floor topic?
17:42:41 <herlo> or is this something that was on the agenda?
17:42:47 <cwickert> nope
17:42:55 <cwickert> #topic Open floor
17:43:03 <cwickert> bckurera: what exactly is your question?
17:43:19 <bckurera> Do we continue FUDcon next year as well?
17:43:36 <rbergeron> bckurera: ohh, the million dollar question.
17:43:44 * rbergeron moves her spot with her computer to type better
17:43:50 <nirik> I have one quick item. ;) Now that fesco has moved meetings to wed... can you switch this meeting to use #fedora-meeting? More people are there, etc.
17:44:03 <bckurera> rbergeron less than million $$$$ :)
17:44:06 <cwickert> nirik: +1
17:44:15 <sesivany> nirik: +1
17:44:26 <herlo> nirik: can do
17:44:40 <cwickert> #info starting 2012-09-24. FAmSCo will meet in #fedora-meeting again
17:44:47 <rbergeron> wooooo
17:44:54 <rbergeron> okay, so, here are my thoughts:
17:45:37 <rbergeron> If/when we move to a one-giant-fudcon model, we will still have regional fudcons (except perhaps in whatever local region the SuperFudcon is in that year).
17:45:53 <cwickert> +1
17:45:58 <rbergeron> Perhaps they will ahve different names (keep old stuff fudcons, call big one something new.)
17:46:00 <bckurera> that sounds good
17:46:14 <aeperezt> +1
17:46:17 <herlo> or call the smaller one's FADs as they would likely be
17:46:17 <sesivany> rbergeron: how will it affect their budgets?
17:46:23 <rbergeron> Myhope is to have a big ... whatever, "fedora contributors conference" next year
17:46:35 * herlo likes the FCC!
17:46:43 <rbergeron> sesivany: they would stay flat, though i would push for getting another 5-10k each a year anyway.
17:46:49 <rbergeron> But having a superfudcon is a separate budget.
17:47:02 <rbergeron> Which basically, if you see me in the future with alot of brown on my face, you'll know what i've been doing.
17:47:10 <herlo> lol
17:47:17 <rbergeron> Becuase I figure the budget for doing somtehing liek that is going to be at least 100k, probably more.
17:47:20 <bckurera> rbergeron it is clear but when planning starts, soon FUDcon Paris ends, what would be the plan?
17:48:18 * cwickert needs to leave now. I'll write the mail later tonight
17:48:19 <sesivany> rbergeron: then +1 from me too
17:48:28 <rbergeron> bckurera: well, after paris, is lawrence. if people want to start figuring out what fudcons they want next year - i know peole repeatedly complain about their quarters...
17:48:53 <rbergeron> my hope is that if we move to a new SuperCon/FCC/whatever, it would either be in early June, or Early november.
17:49:03 <rbergeron> To basically be right at the start of a release cycle.
17:49:13 <bckurera> rbergeron I would like to know, better start planning early as possible
17:49:39 <rbergeron> bckurera: what quarter are you guys in? q1?
17:49:44 <sesivany> rbergeron: with our slips, it will be at ends of them :-)
17:49:45 <rbergeron> march april may?
17:49:54 <bckurera> Q2 lat year
17:50:00 <rbergeron> sesivany: ssshh ;) i know, that's a big conundrum
17:50:03 <bckurera> s/lat/last
17:50:16 <herlo> rbergeron: so would the SuperDuperFudCON be in the same month every year? Even if we have the event in Australia, for instance?
17:50:36 <herlo> vs North America or EMEA.
17:51:09 <rbergeron> i would expect so, yes, unless we really loved it and justmoved to every 6 months.
17:51:10 <herlo> I'm just thinking about warm weather vs cold weather vs something in the middle.
17:51:26 <rbergeron> Or it's a total failure and we pitch the idea and go back to normal.
17:51:41 <herlo> true
17:51:52 <rbergeron> herlo: bridges when we get there, i suppose :)
17:52:03 <herlo> indeed
17:52:05 <rbergeron> have to suck up first, and get the money to have one.
17:52:09 <bckurera> rbergeron , now I know there will be FUDcons or something like that so I ll start taking this on APAC meetings and see what fellows think.
17:52:10 <rbergeron> and get people on board.
17:52:44 <herlo> so it sounds like the plan for now is just to stay the course until we hear otherwise about SuperFUDCon
17:52:48 <rbergeron> the other possibility is we have one big FCC/supercon and start having more money for local FUDCons that are more user-centric
17:53:13 <sesivany> rbergeron: the superFUDCon would be organized by RHT or the community? I'm not sure if it can be organized the same way FUDCons are if it's too big.
17:53:14 <bckurera> cool like the idea
17:53:14 <rbergeron> herlo: yes. that will be in the next month or so, probably mid-october.
17:54:03 <rbergeron> sesivany: probably a combo of both, though probably not as a proposal/bid for the first one, just because of scale/figuring it out/trying to figure out the financial process
17:54:10 <herlo> so we can probably schedule a planning session at FUDCon Lawrence once we know the direction of SuperDuperAwesomeFUDCon
17:54:20 <rbergeron> bringing poeple in on that scale is proably going to require a lot of crapin the way of moneyspending/signing contracts/etc
17:54:24 <rbergeron> herlo: precisely
17:54:28 <herlo> w00t!
17:54:32 * herlo is ready
17:54:34 <rbergeron> or even perhaps some discussions at Paris
17:54:41 <herlo> right depending on timing
17:54:51 <rbergeron> or a FAD to bring folks together before lawrence
17:55:04 * herlo signs up to help, either way
17:55:26 <sesivany> yeah, I'm interested too
17:55:32 <herlo> anything else on this?
17:55:36 * herlo has 5 minutes
17:55:45 * rbergeron has nothing else on it, i think i answered the qustion :)
17:55:49 <sesivany> we have one more important topic...
17:56:01 <rbergeron> #info more on FUDCon/SuperCon/etc as details come, hopefully early/mid oct.
17:56:11 <herlo> thanks rbergeron
17:56:16 <sesivany> Joerg Simon doesn't want to handle ambassadors registrations any more.
17:56:18 <rbergeron> (Fedora Opensource Contributors Unite! Summit)
17:56:22 <herlo> sesivany: oh, right
17:56:27 * herlo was going to just take that over for him
17:56:54 <herlo> but I wanted to discuss that with the group. Because I think we could all just do it and benefit from the value of knowing our ambassador mentors and manatees
17:57:01 <herlo> s/manatees/mentorees/
17:58:08 <sesivany> herlo: what does the role involve?
17:58:20 <herlo> it's pretty straightforward.
17:58:22 <bckurera> rbergeron Will you available after the meeting for 5 minutes?
17:58:31 <rbergeron> bckurera: yeah
17:58:32 <herlo> When a new potential ambassador joins, he picks a mentor
17:58:47 <bckurera> rbergeron That is good I need to get you :)
17:58:51 <herlo> the fama ticket is setup from the fas account application and the mentor is assigned
17:59:10 <herlo> once the mentor assigns himslef, and gives a thumbs up, we approve the ambassador request
17:59:23 <sesivany> herlo: you think regions could do it for themselves?
17:59:28 <herlo> sesivany: there may be a few nuances in there that I don't know, which is why we shoudl talk with kital
17:59:35 <inode0> !
17:59:52 <herlo> sesivany: not really, unless we designate another person in each region which seems like overkill
17:59:57 <sesivany> inode0: it's openfloor, just speak up.
18:00:01 <inode0> It also involved managing the ambassador mailing list, welcome announcements, etc.
18:00:12 <herlo> inode0: right
18:00:45 * herlo was just discussing the ticket task. Though I think much of this could be automated easily.
18:00:59 <herlo> it's mostly just verifying that the proper steps are taking place
18:01:13 <sesivany> herlo: so you're willing to take it over?
18:01:20 * nb wonders why the mentors can't do it themselves?
18:01:27 * inode0 is +1 to herlo
18:01:35 <inode0> we wouldn't want 50 mailing list admins
18:01:50 <nb> well, then split the mailing list admin into a separate role
18:01:56 <herlo> sesivany: sure
18:01:57 <nb> but let the mentors be sponsors for ambassadors
18:02:05 <inode0> we do now really
18:02:05 * herlo has to step away
18:02:23 <sesivany> I have nothing else to discuss anyway.
18:02:38 <sesivany> what about others?
18:02:43 <sesivany> lets end the meeting?
18:03:19 * rbergeron has no objetions
18:03:39 <aeperezt> yeap
18:04:37 <bckurera> I m ok with that too
18:04:38 <sesivany> #endmeeting