17:00:29 <sesivany> #startmeeting FAmSCo 2012-12-27
17:00:29 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Dec 27 17:00:29 2012 UTC.  The chair is sesivany. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:29 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:36 <sesivany> #meetingname famsco
17:00:36 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famsco'
17:00:43 <sesivany> #topic Roll call
17:00:50 <sesivany> .fas eischmann
17:00:50 <zodbot> sesivany: eischmann 'Jiri Eischmann' <eischmann@redhat.com>
17:01:41 <sesivany> anyone up for the meeting? aeperezt_mb, cwickert, nb?
17:02:01 <cwickert> .fas cwickert
17:02:02 <zodbot> cwickert: cwickert 'Christoph Wickert' <christoph.wickert@googlemail.com>
17:02:44 <sesivany> two people to reach the quorum...
17:03:31 <cwickert> bckurera, tuanta and herlo seem to be offline, I cannot spot them anywhere
17:04:04 <sesivany> cwickert: I was a bit worried that it would end up like this.
17:04:09 <cwickert> never mind
17:04:16 <cwickert> we can still do something useful
17:04:20 <sesivany> cwickert: but I asked everyone if he could come or not.
17:04:24 <cwickert> like talk about the EMEA budget
17:05:38 <sesivany> cwickert: yeah, that's something I wanted to work on tonight or tomorrow. I've been sick since Dec 23rd, today I finally feel better.
17:05:54 <cwickert> uuh
17:05:57 <cwickert> good timing
17:06:54 <aeperezt_mb> .fas aeperezt
17:06:54 <zodbot> aeperezt_mb: aeperezt 'Alejandro Perez' <alejandro.perez.torres@gmail.com>
17:07:40 <sesivany> looking at the meeting agenda (https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/report/9), I see that there is a ticket about FADs open for a long time. That's something we should solve, too.
17:07:59 <aeperezt_mb> sorry i got stuck on something
17:08:02 <cwickert> well, we brought the issue up
17:08:31 <cwickert> sesivany: rbergeron did not seem to like our idea of letting FAmSCo handle FADs
17:08:36 <aeperezt_mb> so be here but kind of away
17:08:50 <sesivany> #topic Review process of FADS
17:09:22 <sesivany> cwickert: I understand her point, but currently it's pretty much in no man's land.
17:09:37 <cwickert> ..famsco 296
17:09:39 <cwickert> .famsco 296
17:09:39 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/296
17:09:50 <sesivany> some fads are tracked in famsco tracker, some in in fudcon-planning...
17:10:21 <cwickert> that's just an technical problem, but we are facing a bigger social one:
17:10:31 <cwickert> there is nobody who can act as a budget owner
17:10:47 <cwickert> I mean, we want somebody who knows the global community
17:11:00 <sesivany> cwickert: well, guess the only one is FPL.
17:11:01 <cwickert> and who can make a decision whether or not something is worth funding
17:11:07 <cwickert> I don't see anybody
17:11:40 <cwickert> Ruth was hired to do *something*, not sure what exactly here job description is
17:12:06 <cwickert> but I don't think she knows the ambassadors or the community good enough yet
17:12:19 <cwickert> and I haven't seen much work from her anyway
17:12:37 <cwickert> and rbergero is busy as hell
17:12:44 <cwickert> so, who should do it?
17:12:51 <sesivany> cwickert: yeah, that's the problem.
17:13:17 <sesivany> cwickert: FPL is the most suitable person for that, but rbergeron is too busy for that.
17:13:26 <cwickert> and I am afraid there is not much we can do. we brought up our proposal, but the FPL was opposed
17:13:47 <cwickert> the only way to move forward: nag the FPL
17:14:05 <cwickert> either accept our proposal or come up with something better
17:14:34 <sesivany> cwickert: I'll most likely go to FUDCon, so I can nag her personally :)
17:14:48 <sesivany> that's definitely a topic we should discuss there.
17:14:48 * cwickert canot go to FUDCon this year :(
17:14:58 <cwickert> s/canot/cannot
17:15:37 <sesivany> cwickert: do you know if anyone else from famsco is coming?
17:15:44 <cwickert> don't know
17:16:05 <cwickert> nb is coming
17:16:35 <sesivany> herlo too according to the registration.
17:17:24 <cwickert> should we already look into a plan b?
17:17:36 <cwickert> plan b = alternate proposal
17:18:11 <cwickert> like, leave the process as it is currently but make it clear who is budget owner, where to file tickets etc
17:18:29 <cwickert> basically what rbergero wants
17:19:32 <sesivany> I see two possible solutions: we either get an annual budget for FADs and are the budget owner, or there is no budget and someone who knows the financials best has to handle it and approve fads based on what the budget situation is currently like.
17:20:25 <cwickert> I don't think that does fly
17:20:34 <sesivany> someone who knows the financial best == rbergeron or suehle
17:20:41 <cwickert> I mean, the person supposed to have a clue about the budget is suehle
17:20:51 <cwickert> but she cannot make decisions about people
17:21:01 <cwickert> at least I think so
17:21:45 <sesivany> she can always nag rbergeron about it
17:21:57 <cwickert> this will go nowhere
17:22:13 <cwickert> has anybody been reimbursed for FAD Rheinfelden already?
17:22:20 * cwickert doesn't think so
17:22:23 <sesivany> if suehle does all the bookkeeping hardwork and rbergeron only the decisions itself she might have time for it.
17:22:53 <cwickert> well, that's how it's probably supposed to work already and we all know it doesn't work
17:23:19 <sesivany> cwickert: my request hasn't even been approved yet. rbergeron assured me in a private mail that I would get paid, but no progress so far.
17:25:02 <cwickert> same for all the others
17:25:05 <sesivany> do you think creating another track for fads would help it at least from the technical point of view?
17:25:24 <cwickert> well, we could think about using fudcon-planning
17:25:38 <cwickert> or renaming it to premier-events to make it more clear
17:26:22 <cwickert> but still, events are somehow regional
17:26:39 <cwickert> and people who know best about the regions are the people from that region
17:26:58 <cwickert> I am not saying the FAD budget needs to go into regional support
17:27:11 <cwickert> but at least the decisions should be don't locally
17:27:42 <sesivany> I think there are two problems: 1. who does the decision if the FAD is worth and how much we can spend on it, 2. approving particular requests, reimbursements etc. we can't do much about 1. without rbergeron, but we can improve 2.
17:28:54 * cwickert fully agrees
17:29:09 <cwickert> but to be honest, I don't even know how 2 is supposed to work
17:29:21 <cwickert> I mean, take FAD Rheinfelden again
17:29:36 <cwickert> the person who is supposed to make the payments is probably kital
17:29:43 <cwickert> or not?
17:29:57 <sesivany> yes
17:30:01 <sesivany> he is
17:30:11 <cwickert> I mean, can a CC holder make payments for the premier events budget or only from regional support?
17:32:00 <sesivany> that's a question. I think he should be able to do both. It's just a tool to pay people and it shouldn't matter from what budget it goes. That's a different problem.
17:32:53 <sesivany> but then we need to do some internal accounting to tie cc holder's expenses to budgets they belong to.
17:33:40 <cwickert> I think there is nothing we can do here
17:33:52 <cwickert> we need to discuss this with rbergero and rsuehle
17:34:02 <cwickert> otherwise this will go nowhere
17:34:11 <sesivany> another problem is that kital's cc will expire very soon, and AFAIK he doesn't want to do it any more. I've been promised a community cc, but no progress so far.
17:34:36 * sesivany is making notes for his meeting with rbergeron and suehle at fudcon.
17:34:53 <cwickert> I don't think kital's cc expires soon
17:34:59 <cwickert> I think end of 2014
17:35:02 * cwickert looks
17:36:37 <cwickert> during 2014, but I don't know when
17:36:41 <sesivany> my card willexpire in 2013, i would not have hard feelings handing it over
17:36:52 <cwickert> I would take one
17:37:03 <cwickert> I had a big fight with kital about this last week
17:37:04 <sesivany> that's what he sent me, but it at least doesn't say he doesn't want to do it :)
17:37:21 <cwickert> well, he is not happy about the changes we made
17:37:44 <cwickert> but I think the biggest problem was he did not understand them
17:37:56 <sesivany> cwickert: what changes? the regional budgets?
17:38:01 <cwickert> yes
17:38:06 <cwickert> and that we want a budget
17:38:51 <cwickert> in emea-swag-tracking #193 I asked him to give us a budget
17:38:57 <cwickert> for the whole CLT event
17:39:16 <cwickert> he just calculated 400 EUR and he said he is able to make the decision
17:39:21 <sesivany> I think that's one of the best things we've done, and for example the approval process works better, famsco is not overwhelmed by tickets,...
17:39:34 <cwickert> yes, but he completely got it wrong
17:39:44 <cwickert> his impression was that FAmSCo wanted more power
17:39:58 <cwickert> instead we are giving up power by letting the ambassadors decide
17:40:15 <sesivany> yeah, I think FAmSCo has lost a lot of power :)
17:40:23 <cwickert> which is a good thing
17:40:26 <sesivany> and I'm happy about it
17:40:35 <cwickert> just what Max wanted to do
17:40:54 <sesivany> what Max did doesn't fly any more.
17:41:08 <cwickert> but kital insisted that Max had given the cc holders the power to make decisions up to a certain level
17:41:18 <cwickert> basically what the peer review level is
17:41:46 <cwickert> I told him there is nothing wrong with it, but if the requester is also the peer, it looks fishy
17:42:10 <cwickert> and the other misunderstanding was about the budget
17:42:32 <cwickert> I wanted a budget for the *whole* event, that includes the sponsoring for example
17:42:51 <cwickert> and kital claimed that 400 would be enough for CLT
17:42:59 <cwickert> and that he then could decide
17:43:17 <sesivany> but he doesn't include travel expenses, right?
17:43:36 <cwickert> well, he wants to have 4 people at the booth
17:43:41 <cwickert> that is him and 3 others
17:44:02 <cwickert> and he will stay with his parents and pay for himself
17:44:30 <sesivany> but it's not about power, it's about having an idea how much we're going to spend.
17:44:32 <cwickert> so, 400 EUR might be enough for 3 people, but not the total event for the budget
17:44:41 <cwickert> *amen!*
17:44:48 <cwickert> that's what he didn't understand
17:44:56 <cwickert> I said I don't care who makes what decision
17:45:06 <cwickert> but I want to know how much we spend in total
17:45:21 <cwickert> he didn't know about the whole budget planning thing
17:46:06 <sesivany> if he says he needs €1000 he'll get it and we trust him enough that he'll spend it wisely, but we need to know that we will need €1000 for this events. Nothing more nothing less.
17:46:31 <cwickert> yeah
17:46:45 <cwickert> we wrote some angry mails but I called him up the next morning
17:46:50 <sesivany> too bad he couldn't come to Rheinfelden, we could have explained him everything.
17:47:01 <cwickert> and we had a very good conversation
17:47:15 <cwickert> everything was fine after that
17:47:49 <cwickert> we agreed that he had USD 500 that he can spend as the event owner
17:48:07 <cwickert> means he can book rooms for the booth people and reimburse them for travel
17:48:42 <cwickert> everything else, like sponsoring or additional people will have separate tickets and will be handled by the ambassadors
17:49:00 <cwickert> so in the end, he still can make decisions within the peer review limit
17:49:13 <cwickert> I think it was just a big misunderstanding
17:49:31 <cwickert> but it shows that kital is not up to date with the latest developments
17:49:52 <cwickert> he is very busy with his dayjob and that's why he will probably give up cc in 2014
17:50:07 <sesivany> if $500 is not enough for him, we can discuss the limit, but I think the amount is just right and no one objected.
17:50:14 <cwickert> right
17:50:23 <cwickert> anyway, this case is closed
17:50:32 <cwickert> problem solved, everybody happy
17:50:48 <cwickert> but we probably need to explain our changes better
17:50:54 <sesivany> I think we need two cc holders in emea anyway.
17:51:00 <cwickert> ack
17:51:05 <cwickert> you or me?
17:51:27 <cwickert> how about you apply first and I take over when kital's card expires?
17:52:05 <cwickert> having two owners in EMEA and both in Germany is kind of unfair
17:52:14 <sesivany> I've already applied, AFAIK rbergeron even pushed that request, she asked the last week if I got it or not. But nothing so far.
17:53:08 <cwickert> ok, then I probably should apply already to get my card in 2014 ;)
17:53:47 <sesivany> it makes sense for rbergeron because there are a lot of contributors in Brno and she sometimes needs to pay them airfare, lodging. etc. It's better if it's done by someone on site.
17:53:59 <cwickert> ack
17:54:11 <cwickert> you being a RH employee makes many things easier
17:54:32 <cwickert> #action sesivany to nag rbergero about his CC
17:55:15 <cwickert> #action cwickert to apply for a CC *if* kital's expires and he doesn't want to do it any longer
17:55:45 <cwickert> back to premier events
17:55:51 <cwickert> how about we call for a meeting
17:56:09 <cwickert> the two of us plus rbergero and suehle
17:56:22 <cwickert> and everybody else who's is interested
17:57:27 <sesivany> do you want to do it before fudcon?
17:58:02 <cwickert> don't know
17:58:09 <cwickert> it sucks so hard I cannot come
17:59:36 <sesivany> maybe I can discuss it with them at fudcon to clear some things up and then call an irc meeting to include more people. But then we should at least be on the same page.
17:59:52 <sesivany> kinda prediscussion at fudcon and then at irc.
18:00:17 <cwickert> ok
18:00:34 <cwickert> I suggest the two of us make some suggestions by mail
18:00:42 <sesivany> ok
18:00:59 <cwickert> #action cwickert and sesivany to agree on FAD process before FUDCon
18:01:05 <cwickert> #undo
18:01:25 <cwickert> #action cwickert and sesivany to draft suggestions for improving the FAD funding process before FUDCon
18:01:29 <cwickert> sounds better
18:01:41 <cwickert> ok, that's all we can do here I think
18:01:48 <cwickert> what about budget?
18:02:00 <cwickert> I mean, we were supposed to draft something
18:02:09 <cwickert> but I haven't done my homework yet
18:02:25 <cwickert> I need to add the numbers we worked out at Rheinfelden to the wiki
18:02:42 <cwickert> this was in fact an action item from the EMEA meeting
18:03:04 <sesivany> yes, please do that, then I take them and add other figures such as media production.
18:03:28 <cwickert> ok, I'll let you know when I am done
18:03:39 <cwickert> I'll do it right after this meeting
18:03:54 <cwickert> the only action item I did not yet do, all others are resolved :)
18:03:57 <sesivany> I'll use this page for it: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/EMEA/Budget
18:04:50 <cwickert> ok
18:05:01 <cwickert> I'll just add my numbers there
18:05:01 <sesivany> then I'll track actual expenses and we'll have a clear overview of what we planned to spend and what we actually spent.
18:07:37 <sesivany> speaking of planning, any news about fosdem booth?
18:07:58 <cwickert> nope
18:08:32 <cwickert> I think they will be confirmed beginning of January
18:09:46 <sesivany> leslie promised me that she would let me know in a couple of days how many beds she's going to have for us in the apartments. No response from her either.
18:10:14 <sesivany> that's something we have to solve in the first week of Jan, too.
18:10:46 * cwickert is not surprised
18:11:11 * cwickert feels like fighting against windmills
18:11:52 <sesivany> do we have a backup plan? some hotel that is not very expensive?
18:12:11 <cwickert> in the past we always let people book for themselves
18:12:33 <cwickert> and I think we already have some people like GeroldKA and fab_a who booked the Renaissance again
18:12:58 <cwickert> I mean, it's not cheap, but they have good weekend specials
18:13:08 <cwickert> definitely worth it, good value for money
18:13:19 <cwickert> because the hotel is awesome
18:13:47 <cwickert> http://www.marriott.com/hotels/travel/BRUBR-Renaissance-Brussels-Hotel
18:14:09 <sesivany> I created a wiki page http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FOSDEM_2013 - please add yourself and take over the ownership. I'm a preliminary owner, but it should be owned by someone who's been at FOSDEM before.
18:15:37 * cwickert does it now
18:17:20 <cwickert> sesivany: ha, suehle is coming to FOSDEM
18:17:25 <cwickert> we can nag her there
18:18:22 <sesivany> rbergeron is not coming?
18:18:48 <sesivany> she's not in the list, but not everyone going is there yet.
18:20:27 <cwickert> lets hope she comes
18:21:27 <cwickert> ok, I changed the wiki page
18:22:02 <cwickert> if nothing more needs to be discussed, I'd like to end this meeting now because I need to leave
18:22:57 <sesivany> #endmeeting