17:00:05 <sesivany> #startmeeting FAmSCo 2013-01-03
17:00:05 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Jan  3 17:00:05 2013 UTC.  The chair is sesivany. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:05 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:08 <sesivany> #meetingname famsco
17:00:08 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famsco'
17:00:15 <sesivany> #topic Roll call
17:00:20 <sesivany> .fas eischmann
17:00:20 <zodbot> sesivany: eischmann 'Jiri Eischmann' <eischmann@redhat.com>
17:00:48 <cwickert> hold on
17:01:03 <cwickert> ah, sorry, you set the meeting name correctly
17:01:08 <cwickert> ok, then, lets roll
17:01:11 <cwickert> .fas cwickert
17:01:11 <zodbot> cwickert: cwickert 'Christoph Wickert' <christoph.wickert@googlemail.com>
17:01:36 <cwickert> ping aeperezt nb tuanta
17:01:48 <tuanta> .fas tuanta
17:01:51 <zodbot> tuanta: tuanta 'Truong Anh Tuan' <tuanta@iwayvietnam.com>
17:02:39 <sesivany> #chair sesivany cwickert tuanta
17:02:39 <zodbot> Current chairs: cwickert sesivany tuanta
17:03:00 <tuanta> hello everyone
17:03:05 <sesivany> let's wait a few more minutes if others will show up
17:03:13 <cwickert> I don't think they will
17:03:38 <sesivany> cwickert: ok, let's start then...
17:03:46 <sesivany> #topic Announcements
17:03:57 <sesivany> any announcements?
17:04:58 <sesivany> i just want to say that there is going to be a F18 readiness meeting in two hours where I will represent FAmSCo.
17:05:15 <sesivany> so if you have anything I should manage to or say there...
17:05:20 * cwickert is afk for 2 mins
17:06:30 <tuanta> yes, I see. that meeting just started on #fedora-meeting-1 channel
17:07:13 <sesivany> tuanta: that's weird because I got an invitation that says 19:00 UTC...
17:07:46 <sesivany> tuanta: no, that's a Go/No-go meeting, that's something different.
17:08:04 <aeperezt> .fas aeperezt
17:08:04 <zodbot> aeperezt: aeperezt 'Alejandro Perez' <alejandro.perez.torres@gmail.com>
17:08:13 <tuanta> ah, thanks sesivany
17:08:19 <sesivany> aeperezt: welcome
17:08:19 <cwickert> sesivany: tell them we are ready when they are. the problem is: F18 is horrobly broken and we are the ones who will have all people coming up to our booths with their problems or to make fun of fedora :(
17:08:33 <aeperezt> sesivany, helo sorry I was distracted by some work
17:08:54 <sesivany> #chair sesivany cwickert tuanta aeperezt
17:08:54 <zodbot> Current chairs: aeperezt cwickert sesivany tuanta
17:09:11 <cwickert> wow, we have a quorum
17:09:38 <sesivany> #info present: cwickert, tuanta, aeperezt, sesivany
17:09:45 <tuanta> great :)
17:10:16 <sesivany> the current meeting agenda: https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/report/9
17:10:55 <sesivany> I think we can discuss the budget topic (279).
17:11:23 <sesivany> what do you think? there are just 10 days left till the deadline, maybe we can share what we've done so far.
17:11:35 <cwickert> yes please
17:11:42 <tuanta> !
17:11:53 <sesivany> #topic Budget Planning for 2013
17:12:00 <sesivany> .famsco 279
17:12:00 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/279
17:12:06 <sesivany> tuanta: go ahead
17:12:19 <tuanta> we raised this issue in APAC and got some first information
17:13:18 <sesivany> tuanta: continue... if you have something
17:13:22 <aeperezt> !
17:13:43 <tuanta> ambassadors collecting budget information in each country
17:13:58 <sesivany> aeperezt: let's finish APAC first, then we'll get to you.
17:14:16 <tuanta> I am myself processing information in Vietnam
17:14:45 <tuanta> our first deadline is 4th of Jan to collect first info
17:15:02 <sesivany> tuanta: I recommend you start with the list of events you want to organize/attend in FY2014. At least in EMEA, most money goes on them.
17:15:04 <tuanta> then we will sum them up to get more final information
17:15:28 <tuanta> yes, we learn a lot from EMEA
17:15:35 <sesivany> but every region is different, so do it the way you think suits the best to you.
17:15:54 <sesivany> tuanta: any issues so far?
17:16:00 <tuanta> in the next APAC meeting (this Saturday), we will discuss this more
17:16:33 <tuanta> hope fully, we will have a plan on time
17:17:02 <tuanta> but that would not be a full plan, just a part
17:17:04 <sesivany> tuanta:  don't forget to include everything: swag/media production, shipping, event budgets including travel expenses,...
17:17:24 <tuanta> yes, thanks, sesivany
17:17:50 <sesivany> tuanta: anything else or we can get to aeperezt?
17:17:56 <tuanta> we may miss information from some country where we do not have active ambassadors
17:18:15 <tuanta> but we will try to improve everything
17:18:17 <tuanta> eof
17:18:40 <aeperezt> thanks tuanta
17:18:51 <sesivany> tuanta: if there are no active ambassadors, then there won't most likely be any expenses. But we include some reserves too.
17:18:56 <sesivany> aeperezt: your turn
17:19:09 <cwickert> !
17:19:48 <aeperezt> Latam is working on the budgets, countries like Venezuela, Peru, Brasil has already work on part of the information
17:20:39 <aeperezt> others countries has not send any information
17:21:28 <aeperezt> so will work with the countries that do want to be participate
17:21:38 <sesivany> aeperezt: ok, hopefully, they'll give you some info because it's about their money, unplanned expenses will be harder to get.
17:21:41 <aeperezt> and will make some reserce
17:21:52 <aeperezt> *reserves
17:22:28 <sesivany> aeperezt: that will be necessary in each region I suppose.
17:22:30 <aeperezt> many of them the main reason is that I ask for compromise
17:23:28 <cwickert> !
17:23:45 <sesivany> one more thing: as you probably know: don't include any expenses related to FADs and FUDCons, that's different story.
17:23:53 <aeperezt> they have the events they ask for things but the do not commit to go, specially in counties with many ambassadors only two want to commit to go to the events so that make it a bit harder
17:24:33 <aeperezt> but it will give and idea of what we need
17:24:37 <sesivany> aeperezt: anything else? can I give a word to cwickert?
17:24:44 <aeperezt> eof
17:24:51 <sesivany> cwickert: your turn
17:24:52 <cwickert> I think there is not much use *asking* for a budget. When asked, everybody wants to have the biggest piece of the pie. Therefor you should look how much they *need* and in order to do this, look at what they have spent in the past.
17:25:33 <cwickert> so for tuanta and aeperezt I suggest you just look at trac or wherever these requests were handled in the past and see how much they used in the last two years
17:25:43 <aeperezt> !
17:25:45 <cwickert> this is what we have done at the FAD in Rheinfelden
17:26:03 <tuanta> it makes sense to me, thanks cwickert
17:26:06 <cwickert> and then you have a rough idea and can reach out to the persons and ask for confirmation
17:26:09 <cwickert> eof
17:26:22 <sesivany> that's right, it won't work the way that we'll get everything we'll ask for. Even FPL and Fedora Project has its budget limits to give us.
17:26:45 <sesivany> so we have to accept expenses to the budget planning wisely, not blindly.
17:26:52 <sesivany> aeperezt: go ahead
17:28:15 <aeperezt> I already did, but latam has not spend much on events, or travel expenses so it make it a bit more dificult
17:28:58 <sesivany> aeperezt: the planning is a complex thing...
17:29:06 <aeperezt> so we want to work on that. Get more support and get a better Idea of what we need and how to spend it. thanks
17:29:07 <aeperezt> eof
17:29:29 <sesivany> aeperezt: you have to take into account how big the budget should be, what areas/events/activities you want to cover.
17:29:55 <sesivany> aeperezt: fortunately, we had EMEA FAD to do that.
17:30:28 <sesivany> the preliminary budget for EMEA we're working on is here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/EMEA/Budget
17:30:29 <aeperezt> sesivany, we working on that I belive that I will have a draf of it by monday
17:30:30 <cwickert> I think there are several steps involved to get a good budget
17:30:44 <cwickert> 1. How much did we spend in the past?
17:31:06 <cwickert> this may be hard to gather all the numbers, not sure if they are available easily
17:31:16 <cwickert> 2. How much would we like to spend?
17:31:51 <cwickert> are there any events we didn't do last year but we would like to attend this time? is there anything else we want to do this year
17:32:11 <cwickert> 1 is probably the lowest and 2 is the hightest
17:32:22 <cwickert> and then you make a compromise between the two
17:32:40 <cwickert> for step 3 is: how much can we realistically spend?
17:33:03 <cwickert> but I would rather like to have people request too much money than too little
17:33:03 <tuanta> yes, #2 is what we are doing now. but I see #1 is also an important stuff to get things clearer
17:33:20 <cwickert> it's always better to have money left than to run out of money :)
17:33:26 <cwickert> eof
17:34:06 <sesivany> ok, anything else to the budget planning? can we move on?
17:34:15 <tuanta> +1 cwickert, "too much" is easier for planning than "too little"
17:34:16 <cwickert> tuanta: yes, 1 is the most important and the hardest part. I'm afraid the numbers are hard to get, probably Harish has some
17:34:34 <cwickert> ok, I think that's all for on budget for now
17:34:51 <sesivany> #info reminder: the deadline for regional budgets for FY2014 is Jan 14th.
17:35:07 <cwickert> sesivany: I don't think this will work, but we can try ;)
17:35:15 <tuanta> cwickert: good idea. I will contact to Harish. but I am not sure when he could respond us. he's super busy now
17:35:16 <aeperezt> cwickert, +1
17:35:20 <cwickert> are there any limitations from the Red Hat side?
17:35:40 <sesivany> cwickert: it's always good to have bold deadline to have enough time for delays ;)
17:36:00 <sesivany> but the new fiscal year starts on March 1st which is not so far away.
17:36:05 <cwickert> tuanta: I think a lot of stuff should be in the fedora-apac trac, there also may be something in the old fedora-india trac
17:36:21 <cwickert> anyway, better request more money
17:36:37 <cwickert> it is important that we come up with a plan *how* to spend this money
17:37:00 <cwickert> the more detailed the plan is, the better the chances to get more budget are
17:37:10 <cwickert> for all of us, for the whole Fedora project
17:37:15 <cwickert> ok, eof
17:37:51 <tuanta> cwickert: AFAIK, we got about 80-90k per year for regional supports. but yes, getting a plan done is better for all
17:37:54 <sesivany> yes, it's more about planning what we want to do in the next year and then we estimate how much money we need to make it happen instead of just thinking in terms of money.
17:38:20 <tuanta> +1
17:39:15 <sesivany> the next topic I'd like to discuss is FADs and how expenses around FADs are handled. That's a hot topic nowadays :)
17:39:26 <tuanta> :)
17:39:45 <sesivany> i know cwickert's opinion very well, but I'd like to know others' too.
17:39:59 <sesivany> #topic FAD reimbursement
17:40:18 <sesivany> tuanta, aeperezt: are you familiar with the problem?
17:40:59 <aeperezt> sesivany, I'm kind of familiar with the issue and been reading the discusion on the emails lists
17:41:42 <sesivany> the problem is that FADs are for historical reasons in the same group as FUDCons - premium events.
17:41:51 <aeperezt> sesivany, plus we are plainnig to have 2 or 3 FADs on latam so it will help to have this clarify
17:42:05 <sesivany> and there is no clear process how to ask, where to ask, who is a budget owner etc.
17:42:59 <sesivany> we need to find a budget owner which is currently unofficially FPL.
17:43:23 <sesivany> we proposed that FAmSCo would take it over because some FADs have ended up in our trac.
17:43:33 <tuanta> sesivany: AFAIK, there are not many FADs in APAC up to now. but this issue is common. too difficult to get right information
17:43:48 <sesivany> some didn't like the idea because FADs are not FAm specific.
17:44:35 <sesivany> I'm going to talk about it with rbergeron at FUDCon in two weeks and I'd like to know what's our opinion on that.
17:44:46 <tuanta> but it's true that someone should take this responsibility
17:45:30 <sesivany> guys, are all FADs in your regions region-specific?
17:45:49 <tuanta> yes, I think so
17:46:05 <tuanta> they are region-specific
17:46:43 <tuanta> even, most of participants would come from the host country
17:46:46 <aeperezt> well latam has only one fad last year
17:47:00 <sesivany> cwickert: have we had a FAD in EMEA recently that wasn't region-specific?
17:47:23 <cwickert> depends on the definition
17:47:40 <sesivany> cwickert: yes, there was one: the KDE SIG one in Brno
17:47:56 <cwickert> I mean, they should not be region specific, they should be problem spefic
17:48:21 <cwickert> but it turns out most are kind of region-specific
17:48:26 <aeperezt> latam has not budget owner so we have to FPL to get the FAD done
17:48:26 <sesivany> cwickert: I think the problem already starts with very unclear definition of what FAD is.
17:48:50 <cwickert> aeperezt: no region has a budget owner, only APAC
17:49:08 <cwickert> but Harish is busy so we all have to ask the FPL
17:49:34 <cwickert> and this is where I think the problem is: The FPL is the leader of a global community
17:49:41 <sesivany> cwickert: there are problem specific FADs such as the KDE one, then there are mixed FADs such as our EMEA one and then there are FADs that are not FADs by definition at all such as events in Milan and now in Greece.
17:49:50 <cwickert> nobody can expect him/her to know all people from the local communities
17:50:05 <cwickert> and make a decision whether or not somebody is worth sponsoring
17:50:24 <cwickert> ok, lets back up for a moment
17:50:37 <cwickert> I think all the events in Greece etc should not be FADs
17:50:44 <cwickert> they don't meet the FAD definition
17:50:54 <cwickert> we should look for a new name instead
17:51:16 <tuanta> good idea, cwickert
17:51:28 <cwickert> a FAD is not for promotion but for solving a certain, well-defined problem
17:51:43 <cwickert> and after the FAD you know how much you have achieved
17:52:08 <cwickert> so, we can just rename most "FADs" to something else and we solved half of the problem :)
17:52:26 <tuanta> so FAD is totally different from FDUCon, right?
17:52:27 <cwickert> that's what we did last year with the FAD Philippines
17:52:43 <cwickert> tuanta: yes. recently there was an infrastructure FAD
17:52:44 <tuanta> cwickert, got this point :)
17:52:59 <cwickert> where Fedora infrastructure people got together and hacked on stuff
17:53:22 <sesivany> tuanta: yes, that's another problem, that two completely different events are supposed to be handled the same way.
17:53:22 <cwickert> a FAD is for getting stuff done (tm), not for promotion
17:53:35 <cwickert> ok, say we give the other FADs a new name
17:53:51 <cwickert> this leaves us with the real FADs, which mostly happen in NA and EMEA
17:54:01 <cwickert> because this is where most of the contributors/developers are
17:54:16 <cwickert> these events are not supposed to be local events
17:54:24 <cwickert> but as a matter of fact, they are
17:54:41 <tuanta> cwickert: I think this is a good idea. It should be documented well soon
17:54:53 <cwickert> take the infrastructure FAD: it was somewhere in NA and AFAIC all attendees were from NA
17:55:32 <cwickert> even if you have somebody working in Fedora infrastructure who is from EMEA or APAC, he probably doesn't fly over to the US only for a weekend
17:55:52 <cwickert> so these events are kind of regional events, too
17:56:01 <sesivany> cwickert: yes, all people from other regions worked remotely.
17:56:28 <cwickert> but I am not sure it means we should take the money from the regional support budget
17:56:42 <cwickert> I mean, we could just say we move 15 over to regional support
17:56:59 <cwickert> and then let the regional communities organize the FADs and decide how to deal with it
17:57:19 <cwickert> the advantage would be that they know better what they need
17:57:35 <cwickert> but on the other hand it will be harder to organize stuff for remote people
17:57:48 <sesivany> cwickert: the problem is that such events are hard to plan. the regional budgets are handled mostly by ambassadors who have no idea if for example security guys decide to hold a FAD in the next year.
17:57:52 <cwickert> think of Brno, where we had rdieter at the KDE SIG hackfest
17:57:58 <cwickert> sesivany: right
17:58:09 <cwickert> FADs are typically not ambassador events
17:58:15 <sesivany> cwickert: those expenses are pretty much ad-hoc.
17:58:20 <cwickert> that's a good point why we shouldn't manage the budget
17:58:34 <tuanta> +1
17:58:39 <cwickert> I am not saying we should, all I am saying is the current process sucks
17:58:56 <cwickert> I don't care who makes the decision as long as somebody does make them
17:59:16 <sesivany> cwickert: that's why it makes more sense to make that FPL is the right person because she/he has the best overview how the budget is currently standing.
17:59:21 <tuanta> cwickert: I got your point
17:59:29 * cwickert is thinking...
18:00:11 <cwickert> I have no idea
18:00:19 <aeperezt> sesivany, +1
18:00:23 <sesivany> but 1. we have to limit the FADs to events which are really problem specific, 2. we have to set up a clear process for budget requests, and 3. we have to make FPL to take care of it.
18:00:27 <tuanta> if FPL is busy, we should have someone else to make this
18:00:37 <cwickert> I agree it makes sense the FPL or the mysterious "budget manager" makes the decision
18:00:50 <cwickert> but that is only part of the solution
18:01:07 <sesivany> I don't think there are too many true FADs that FPL or rsuehle can't handle them.
18:01:41 <cwickert> well, even if there is only 4 real FADs a year, it seems too much already
18:01:57 <cwickert> because stuff doesn't get done
18:02:34 <cwickert> so we need to do two things: Rename all FADs that are not really FADs, then we can handle them
18:02:44 <tuanta> we got a good point now, should dig it deeper
18:03:04 <cwickert> everything that is a promo event, needs to be renamed and be handled by FAmSCo or the regional communities
18:03:14 <cwickert> then we have a few *real* FADs remaining
18:03:34 <cwickert> how about we have them in fudcon-planning trac and let the FPL manage them
18:03:53 <cwickert> or the budget manager, whoever
18:04:13 <sesivany> cwickert: that's what we're doing at least in EMEA. The Greek guys call it FAD, I advise them not to use such name and we handle it as normal regional event.
18:04:26 <cwickert> and I think it should be two people to make decisions: budget owner and event owner
18:04:27 <tuanta> yes, we would suggest FAmSCoa and regional communities handle those kinds of "not-real" FADs (by rename them)
18:04:52 <cwickert> the budget owner knows the bugdet, the event owner the people
18:04:58 <aeperezt_mb2> tuanta +1
18:05:13 <cwickert> together they can make decisions if somebody is worth sponsoring
18:05:25 <sesivany> cwickert: I'm for the fudcon-planning trac and FPL, for sure.
18:05:38 <tuanta> +1 cwickert
18:05:49 <cwickert> basically I expect the budget owner to approve all suggestions from the event owner as long as they sound reasonable and there is money left
18:06:21 <sesivany> and the event owner ought to nag the budget owner to approve things so that they can get paid.
18:06:34 <cwickert> if the event owner says "I need person X here to solve this problem". the budget owner should just say "ok, we have an amount of USD WHY left, I'll see what I can do"
18:06:51 <cwickert> ok, do we agree on this proposal?
18:06:59 <sesivany> +1, completely
18:07:04 <tuanta> +1 cwickert
18:07:22 <sesivany> cwickert: can you formulate it for the minutes?
18:07:27 <cwickert> :)
18:07:38 <cwickert> I was just looking how to phrase it nicely
18:07:40 <tuanta> the current problem seems to be solved out this way
18:08:35 <sesivany> tuanta: it's still just a proposal for FPL, will see what she'll say about it.
18:08:41 <sesivany> but I like it.
18:09:20 <aeperezt_mb2> cwickert +1
18:09:21 <cwickert> #info FAmSco thinks that in order to fix the problems with FAD budget, we need to define "FAD" more clearly. Promo events are not FADs and will be handled by the regional communities. Real FADs will continue to be managed be the budget owner
18:10:10 <cwickert> #info request for promo events go into the regional trac instances as usual, FAD requests will be tracked in fudcon-planning
18:10:31 <tuanta> cwickert: and budget owner should be defined/appointed more clearly
18:10:39 <cwickert> #info event owner and budget owner should make descisions about sponsorships for FADs
18:10:49 <cwickert> tuanta: big +1
18:10:56 <cwickert> I think that is the biggest problem atm
18:11:05 <cwickert> the FPL has too much work to do
18:11:48 <sesivany> cwickert: put it also in the proposal. That we suggest FPL or some Fedora Project budget wrangler will do it.
18:12:21 <tuanta> everyone should have a good point to contact for planning a *real* FAD
18:12:24 <sesivany> cwickert: I think of two persons: rbergeron and rsuehle. No one else doesn't come to my mind.
18:13:04 <sesivany> no one else has a better overview how the overall budget is standing.
18:13:11 <cwickert> #agreed: to solve the issues about FAD budget, separate FADs from promo events more clearly, but continue with the current setup: promo events will be handled by the regional communities and  FADs should be handled by premier events budget owner and event owner of the FAD
18:13:21 <tuanta> one more person in my mind: cwickert :)
18:13:28 <cwickert> no way! :P
18:13:35 * cwickert doesn't like numbers ;)
18:14:17 <sesivany> I think it should be someone from Red Hat who has direct access to the numbers. BTW I don't.
18:14:27 <cwickert> #agreed: requests for promo events will be tracked in the regional trac instances, FAD requests go into fudcon-planing (or something yet to be defined)
18:14:35 <cwickert> everybody alright with that summary?
18:14:41 <sesivany> yes
18:14:45 <tuanta> sesivany: lol "your BTW"
18:15:11 <tuanta> yes, that should be fine, cwickert
18:15:27 <aeperezt_mb2> yes
18:15:30 <sesivany> cwickert: I think the budget owner is something FPL has to figure out.
18:15:42 <tuanta> +1
18:15:53 <sesivany> cwickert: we just need to nag her to make a decision about it.
18:16:27 <cwickert> #agreed FAmSCo asks for clarification who is supposed to be the "budget owner"
18:16:29 <cwickert> :)
18:16:36 <aeperezt_mb2> +1
18:16:50 <sesivany> I think we nailed it down pretty well
18:16:59 <cwickert> ok, I will add this to the ticket, I think that rberergo will be happy about this
18:17:12 <cwickert> the only thing for us is: come up with a new name
18:17:35 <cwickert> for the FADs-that-are-no-longer-called-FADs
18:17:47 <cwickert> and make sure all ambassadors use this term for their events
18:17:56 <cwickert> I suggest to ask on ambassadors list
18:18:18 <cwickert> in fact this was one of my action items from FAD Rheinfelden
18:18:35 <tuanta> I don't think we must to have a new name for that kind of events
18:18:52 <tuanta> they should be *any* events
18:19:05 <tuanta> just not FAD
18:19:11 <cwickert> FAD means Fedora Activity Day
18:19:15 <sesivany> yes, hopefully someone will come with a cool name whose abbreviation is not WTF or PMS :)
18:19:24 <cwickert> :)
18:19:27 <tuanta> lol
18:19:38 <aeperezt_mb2> lol
18:19:56 <cwickert> #action cwickert to ask ambassadors for a new name for their FAD-like events
18:20:23 <cwickert> lets see what they come up with
18:20:45 <tuanta> it's highly recommended for everyone that they should consider carefully before naming an event a FAD
18:20:53 <sesivany> are we done with this topic?
18:21:00 <cwickert> good point, tuanta
18:21:02 <tuanta> the process should be more complex
18:21:03 <cwickert> #info it's highly recommended for everyone that they should consider carefully before naming an event a FAD
18:21:29 * sesivany wonders why #281 is still open since we ratified it a while ago.
18:21:34 <cwickert> I think we are done
18:21:37 <tuanta> ok, I think that's all
18:21:48 <aeperezt_mb2> ok
18:21:52 <cwickert> sesivany: because we failed
18:21:54 <cwickert> :)
18:22:03 <cwickert> #topic Budget review guidelines
18:22:07 <cwickert> .famsco 281
18:22:07 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/281
18:22:24 <cwickert> so we have failed in 2 regards
18:22:35 <cwickert> 1. Explain what we have changed (or not)
18:22:53 <cwickert> there is a lot of confusion now, especially for the credit card holders
18:23:16 <cwickert> even though I don't think we are to blame for everything, we didn't communicate our changes good enough
18:23:35 <cwickert> 2. we phrased our guidelines badly
18:24:06 <cwickert> currently they are more like "These are the rules, obey them!"
18:24:14 <cwickert> but I want them more like a howto
18:24:37 <cwickert> "You are a Fedora and need money to make things happen? Here is how to get it"
18:24:54 <cwickert> s/Fedora/Fedora contributor
18:24:55 <sesivany> cwickert: that's right.
18:25:18 <cwickert> especially the APAC guidelines are too strict
18:25:34 <cwickert> I will work on a howto in the wiki
18:26:02 <tuanta> yes, that should be more friendly
18:26:16 <sesivany> cwickert: the concrete phrasing is pretty much a responsibility of regions, it's in their hands.
18:26:19 <cwickert> the bottom line should be: we don't want to scare people and have them run in circles to get money, we want to encourage them to spend money for Fedora
18:26:36 <tuanta> +1
18:26:57 <cwickert> sesivany: yes, but we agreed that FAmSCo will have to ratify or at least review the region specific guidelines
18:27:01 <aeperezt_mb2> +1
18:27:04 <cwickert> and I don't think we ever did that
18:27:29 <sesivany> cwickert: when I'm going through our guidelines I have to admit it sounds a bit scary :)
18:27:43 <cwickert> :)
18:27:48 <tuanta> :)
18:27:57 <sesivany> cwickert: it's full of "you have to do this" "No..., no..." :)
18:28:06 <cwickert> right, that's the problem
18:28:19 <cwickert> ok, lets make the EMEA ones more friendly and then ask other regions to take over what they consider usefull?
18:28:22 <cwickert> useful*
18:28:30 <sesivany> cwickert: ok
18:28:51 <tuanta> good idea, cwickert
18:29:29 <aeperezt_mb2> +1
18:29:53 <cwickert> just an example from https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/APAC/Reimbursement
18:30:01 <cwickert> "Only active Fedora Ambassadors with in the region can request travel subsidies under this program."
18:30:06 <cwickert> I think this should be removed
18:30:21 <cwickert> because it means we could not sponsor a Fedora developer
18:30:27 <sesivany> #action sesivany and cwickert to work on softening and rephrasing the EMEA reimbursement guidelines
18:30:34 <cwickert> ok, fine
18:31:00 <tuanta> APAC and other regions also think about this to comment on
18:31:00 <cwickert> anything else on this?
18:31:24 <sesivany> no
18:31:41 <sesivany> I will have to leave soon because I have another meeting.
18:31:42 <cwickert> can we end this meeting then?
18:31:49 * cwickert needs to go for dinner
18:31:58 <sesivany> ok, I'll end it.
18:32:23 <cwickert> #info next FAmSCo meeting is 2012-01-07
18:32:25 <tuanta> yes, it's too late here. I need back to bed
18:32:34 <sesivany> #endmeeting