17:00:25 #startmeeting FAmSCo 2013-01-14 17:00:25 Meeting started Mon Jan 14 17:00:25 2013 UTC. The chair is sesivany. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 17:00:25 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 17:00:33 #meetingname famsco 17:00:33 The meeting name has been set to 'famsco' 17:00:41 #topic Roll call 17:00:43 .fas tuanta 17:00:43 tuanta: tuanta 'Truong Anh Tuan' 17:00:47 .fas cwickert 17:00:47 cwickert: cwickert 'Christoph Wickert' 17:00:47 .fas eischmann 17:00:49 sesivany: eischmann 'Jiri Eischmann' 17:01:24 aeperezt, bckurera: ping 17:01:26 ping nb nb_ aeperezt bckurera 17:01:30 :) 17:01:36 ping bckurera 17:01:40 hahaha 17:01:48 .fas aeperezt 17:01:48 aeperezt: aeperezt 'Alejandro Perez' 17:01:48 enough pinging I guess 17:01:55 :) 17:01:57 .fas herlo 17:01:57 herlo: herlo 'Clint Savage' 17:02:26 ah, there he 17:02:39 great, we have a quorum :) 17:02:44 herlo: just pinged you in #fedora-ambassadors 17:02:58 see that :) 17:04:02 anybody knows what's up with bckurera and nb recently? haven't seen them attending much meetings 17:04:15 and don't recall any of them sending regrets 17:04:23 #info present: sesivany, cwickert, aeperezt, herlo, tuanta 17:04:48 #chair sesivany cwickert aeperezt herlo tuanta 17:04:48 Current chairs: aeperezt cwickert herlo sesivany tuanta 17:05:11 nb was here last week iirc 17:05:16 ok, let's start. 17:05:55 #topic announcements 17:05:55 * tuanta changes to a faster internet connection 17:06:07 any announcements? 17:06:09 ! 17:06:14 cwickert: go ahead 17:06:27 Fedora 18 will be released tomorrow! woo-ho! 17:06:36 eof 17:06:37 cwickert: finally :) 17:06:52 yeah :-) 17:07:15 btw we received the results of community survey (read ambassadors list). 17:07:23 huh? 17:07:25 but I think it's worth a separate topic 17:07:49 FUDCon starts on Friday, because of which I will not be at next week's FAmSCo meeting. 17:07:57 i m here :) 17:07:59 cwickert: http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/ambassadors/2013-January/020736.html 17:08:01 sorry for getting later 17:08:35 herlo: I won't be here either, will be on the plane back home. 17:08:37 * herlo also highlights his FAmA improvement session for those who might want to share the word. 17:09:00 sesivany: yes, my reason exactly. 17:09:12 hold on 17:09:22 what improvement session? 17:09:50 herlo: I will surely attend. I'd like to do something similar, but for FAm worldwide. 17:09:56 sesivany: yes, that is my plan 17:09:59 cwickert: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon:Lawrence_2013#Technical_sessions_.28Friday.29 17:10:14 bottom line in that table: Improving the FAmA (Fedora Ambassador Administration) Mentoring Process 17:10:21 ah 17:10:28 cwickert : I was busy with Google Code In : and I missed a meeting that is all :) . From today I m free since it ends today :) 17:10:44 so, can we please do one thing at a time? 17:10:53 cwickert: we're doing announcements, nothing more 17:11:16 sure, but I think we have no real announcements 17:11:28 cwickert: do you want to discuss Kital's mail? 17:11:33 I think my fudcon announcement is nice. 17:11:38 hold on please 17:12:05 herlo: thanks for the session. unfortunately I cannot attend, but I'd like you to do me a favor 17:12:29 can we change the mentoring process to not start with applying for group membership? 17:12:41 do we want to quickly discuss this? 17:12:56 cwickert: no, we can't change that 17:13:09 #topic Mentoring process 17:13:38 herlo: why not? We changed it for the packagers, too 17:13:38 cwickert: why do you want to change that? It works well and I'm actually developing software around the process as it stands. 17:13:56 ok, I see several problems with it: 17:14:00 cwickert: yes, but having a fas account and applying for membership is natural. 17:14:16 cwickert: let's not hijack the meeting over this. 17:14:33 we can discuss offline or at FUDCon/mailing list/etc 17:14:34 your wish is my command 17:14:41 I am not at FUDCON 17:14:44 I just told you so 17:14:51 I know, I also gave other options. 17:15:04 it was brought up on the mailing list already 17:15:07 nothing happened 17:15:25 I responded with my reasons there, if it's the same thread you mention 17:15:50 cwickert: or we can make it a meeting agenda item. I'm happy to discuss in open floor today too 17:15:59 just don't want it to get in the way of other items already on the agenda 17:16:18 ok 17:16:18 herlo: let's make a ticket for it, so that we can track it. 17:16:32 sesivany agree with you 17:16:36 sesivany: sure. sounds good to me 17:17:10 cwickert: can you create the ticket? 17:17:42 yes 17:18:13 #action cwickert to create a ticket abouth mentoring process changes 17:18:35 anything else to this? 17:19:01 ? 17:19:14 in famsco trac of fama trac? 17:19:14 IMHO the main topic today are the regional budgets for FY14. I'd like to get to that. 17:19:51 cwickert: famsco IMO, if we want to track the discussion for our meetings. 17:20:02 ok, thanks 17:20:12 Almost 0.5 hours gone, can we start the main topic the budget, please 17:20:27 bckurera: yes, let's do it. 17:20:39 #topic FY14 regional budgets 17:20:58 today is the deadline for first drafts of regional budgets. 17:21:07 I'll start with EMEA 17:21:26 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/EMEA/Budget 17:21:45 cwickert: I added swag and shipping cost. 17:22:12 we got up to $29900 and there is no reserve yet. 17:23:03 ? 17:23:12 tuanta: shoot 17:23:25 is there any limit? 17:23:53 cwickert: what was the limit per region for regional support? 17:23:54 actually, I see we got about $80k-$100k per year 17:24:00 eof 17:24:14 tuanta: well, that's not certainly possible :) 17:24:19 sesivany: I 100 k 17:24:27 I would say that the limit is based upon need. We ask for what we think we need and we are granted based upon that. 17:24:29 cwickert: for all regions, right? 17:24:33 yes :) 17:24:40 only for EMEA would be nice ;) 17:24:58 and in fact I think there is a reserve 17:25:07 have a look at the Austrian Events 17:25:21 herlo: yes, if the limit is about $25k, you can ask for 30 if you need it, but you can't certainly get 100k. 17:25:24 we said we are going to do all of them and each will be at least 300 EUR 17:25:30 For budget there would be no limits, it is like saying how much we need, in the other hand we can see how much we are getting, so we need to adjust our plans :) 17:25:42 sesivany: well, like I said, budgeting is about determining need, not setting a limit 17:25:55 sesivany: but I don't expect anyone will request $100k :D 17:26:08 let's face it, we will not have the manpower to do all events in Austria, we need to focus on the most important ones 17:26:29 so it will be only be 2 or three times 300 EUR and not 5 or 6 times 17:26:44 herlo: sure, but we have to adjust it at least a bit to the reality. Making a budget of 100k if you know you can possibly get, say, 35k is not a very good idea. 17:26:47 I expect the EMEA budget to be less than 30k in the end 17:27:03 cwickert: it makes sense 17:27:04 cwickert: probably good to discuss the details of the emea budget elsewhere. We're just doing an overview, no? 17:27:21 I did not want to discuss the details here 17:27:24 sesivany: I think we're on the same page here. 17:27:29 herlo: sure, anyone else wants to show a draft? 17:27:34 I just wanted to explain why I think there is a reserve 17:27:50 30 is the maximum, we will not need more, probably less 17:27:51 sesivany: we don't have one yet. FADNA is on Thursday 17:28:03 cwickert: understood 17:28:09 herlo: no problem 17:28:20 what about APAC and LATAM? 17:28:23 in fact this is a problem I think 17:28:38 For APAC we are about to finalize the 1st budget proposal 17:28:46 it is about SWAG production 17:29:02 * herlo should note that NA *may* have a budget of which he isn't aware, as he wasn't able to attend last week's FAMNA meeting. 17:29:17 #link http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/ambassadors/2013-January/020762.html 17:29:28 this would be around USD7k 17:29:38 ? 17:29:44 yes 17:30:03 cwickert please ! 17:30:09 can you give us a rough number for the totals? I see all the countries made their individual budgets 17:30:37 cwickert: tuanta just did: 80-100k :) 17:30:47 cwickert budget for events is not yet finalized 17:30:55 sesivany: no :) 17:31:06 we need to work on that 17:31:17 most of them think of the cost of SWAG too 17:31:21 bckurera_: ok 17:31:34 but this time will centrally produce SWAG and distribute 17:31:45 that would be a goal for me as noted in last FAmSCo :) 17:31:59 cwickert: we will have a aggregation, but roughly, total budget for all APAC countries (which proposed) is about 17k 17:32:10 so budget for SWAG would be 90% completed and it would be 7k 17:32:37 that's a reasonable amount. 17:32:49 I will put all of them into one wiki page like EMEA one 17:32:50 frankly speaking I am very concerned about the APAC budget 17:33:08 cwickert so do we :) 17:33:13 hi 17:33:14 there are countries who have not reported a single event in the last year but suddenly request 6-8k 17:33:36 cwickert: so do I. it's the first time we involved to this kind of hard task 17:34:07 cwickert: let's wait for the first draft, then we can judge it. 17:34:14 we are running late 17:34:43 cwickert: yes, I think we will have to discuss more about these requests with the owners 17:34:48 Latam 17:34:56 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/LATAM/Budget 17:35:38 aeperezt: well done! 17:35:50 that budget is based on what we support last year and a few other new events where people commited to be in charge 17:35:55 so I added owner 17:35:56 aeperezt: the total is 11.8k, are you planning to add more items? 17:36:19 it still need some 17:36:44 sorry looking for the right word on english 17:36:53 cwickert: yes, I see. I will take notes to all requests, discuss first on mailing lists then bring to the next APAC meeting. 17:37:16 I think yes I will include a couple more 17:37:23 but not big budgets 17:37:37 I think the reasonable amount every region can ask for is $30k, but I don't want to spend it just because we can. We have to spend it wisely. 17:37:40 tuanta I dont think we have time for that :) 17:38:04 also I need to add some money for shipping swags around latam, that has never been done so no Idea how much will 17:38:05 be 17:38:23 so I think will add around 2500 17:38:24 more 17:38:25 so I'd rather have a smaller budget than spending money on unnecessary things. 17:38:33 sesivany: +1. that's why we need to make a good plan first 17:38:59 I'd like to set a roadmap for this... 17:39:17 EMEA is pretty much done. LATAM is very close. NA will work on it this week. 17:39:28 I need some date from APAC. 17:39:54 bckurera: we are late, I see. But having a good plan is more important. 17:40:09 I think Jan 28th should be a hard deadline because it's already close to the beginning of FY14. 17:40:35 sesivany: we will have a final draft to discuss in the next FAmSCo meeting 17:40:35 sesivany : agree with 28th +1 17:40:51 tuanta: ok, great. 17:41:07 so the next deadline for that final draft should be 21st Jan 17:41:27 yes 50% is already done only the budget on event should be finalized in apac 17:41:37 herlo: will you be able to make it by Jan 21st? 17:41:54 the same questions goes to LATAM, aeperezt. 17:42:11 sesivany, Think yes 17:42:29 sesivany: possibly, I'm not the one in charge, so I can let you know this week at FUDCon for sure. the 21st is the day we all fly back from FUDCon so I won't be at the meeting anyway. 17:43:00 herlo is there any budget wrangler for NA? 17:43:14 I'd keep the Jan 28th, but we will superduper sure that it's done by that date. 17:43:19 bckurera: I believe it's jbwilia (aka Southern_Gentlem) 17:43:38 herlo : thanks for info 17:44:12 tuanta, bckurera: but you can work on delivering the final verion by the next Mon and discuss it with others at the meeting. 17:44:16 bckurera, We will be working on our budget over the FADNA and Fudcon 17:44:30 the next week is just a safe zone for last changes. 17:44:45 sesivany: understood 17:45:32 #info Jan 28th is a hard deadline for submitting final drafts of regional budgets 17:45:59 anything else to budgets? 17:46:52 if not, let's discuss the survey results/analysis. 17:47:20 #topic Community programs analysis 17:47:47 #link http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/ambassadors/2013-January/020736.html 17:48:01 has anyone read this? 17:48:23 I think there are some valid points. 17:48:52 sesivany, I read it 17:49:14 * herlo didn't see this... 17:49:43 an interesting thing is that they say we support individuals (ambassadors) and Ubuntu support communities (LoCo). 17:49:58 ? 17:50:07 this is something different than the survey 17:50:21 cwickert: what do you mean? 17:50:28 interesting 17:50:47 rbergeron and the board want to make a community survey 17:51:11 so at the beginning of the meeting, when you said the results of the survey were available, I was surprised 17:51:27 because the survey hasn't even started and this is something different 17:51:30 cwickert: this was the survey for newcomers (done with Ubuntu, GNOME, Mozilla,..., and Fedora). 17:51:45 was this really a *survey*? 17:51:54 cwickert: it wasn't organized by us. 17:52:03 yes, somebody did it for GNOME 17:52:20 to improve their newcomers experience 17:52:31 well ambassadors should be supporting there communites b) has anyone asked a loco group how much support they get from ubuntu? 17:52:37 cwickert: https://limesurvey.sim.vuw.ac.nz/index.php?sid=89971&lang=en 17:53:10 sesivany: ? 17:53:34 ubuntu loco groups get NO support from Ubuntu from the groups i see at linuxfest 17:53:37 the thing is that IMHO LoCo produces separate local communities which don't really cooperate with anyone else. I think we're doing much better with FAm. 17:53:44 Southern_Gentlem: right, I think this person just looked at the websites and the wiki pages 17:54:00 because ambassadors cooperate within regions much more than their LoCos. 17:54:18 If they had really done a survey among loco people, I think they would be very unhappy 17:54:32 sesivany, ilookat thier loco group as another local lug 17:54:47 cwickert: yeah, but still it's a perspective of an outsider. It's always worth reading. 17:54:50 Southern_Gentlem: big +1 17:55:34 sesivany: sure, but lets not mix things ;) this was not a survey and the survey you linked is not Fedora's survey either 17:55:43 btw this mail is being discussed internally in OSAS. I told them they're welcome to discuss it with FAmSCo. 17:55:52 this analysis is purely based on the websites 17:55:54 Southern_Gentlem, you right, but seems like our program and how we support our communities is lose and cant be found in the web 17:56:16 like, there was no analysis how much people Fedora and Ubuntu send to events 17:56:20 cwickert: well, this version is for Perl, but there was a version for Fedora too. 17:56:24 aeperezt, that actually should be the event and event reports 17:56:27 cwickert: mizmo was involved. 17:56:41 sesivany: in this analysis? 17:57:21 cwickert: this is what she sent to the ambassadors mailing list: https://www.linux.com/news/software/applications/666038-survey-how-important-is-newcomer-experience-in-free-open-source-software-projects 17:57:22 Southern_Gentlem, yes but outsider did not match it up with amassadors program 17:57:57 cwickert: "Fedora wasn't initially included in the list of projects for the survey, but Kevin very kindly offered to add Fedora to the list." 17:58:22 * cwickert is getting more and more confused 17:58:33 sesivany: is this yet another survey?! 17:58:43 aeperezt, so as always we need to advertise and work closer with the marketing people and generate good pamplets showing what we do 17:59:21 * rbergeron looks at her name up above 17:59:30 Southern_Gentlem, +1 17:59:37 cwickert: it's still the same survey. Done by some university guy for several open source projects. 17:59:39 sesivany: yes, it is something different, see https://limesurvey.sim.vuw.ac.nz/index.php?sid=65151&lang=en vs. https://limesurvey.sim.vuw.ac.nz/index.php?sid=89971&lang=en 17:59:57 ok, can we please not mix things again?! 18:00:13 can we just talk about the *analysis* done for the GNOME project? 18:01:08 cwickert: yes, but it was all one survey, with just different entering sites for every project. I just looked up the Perl one, that's it. 18:01:21 hold on 18:01:26 I don't get it 18:01:36 you mentioned the mail that was sent to ambassadors list 18:01:46 it does not say anything about a survey 18:02:16 cwickert: ok, let's focus on the analysis. 18:02:25 and I don't think for that one a survey was done, that is just comparing websites, wiki, structure and governance 18:02:52 in order to improve the experience for new GNOME contributors 18:03:03 cwickert: you may be right 18:03:12 I think there are some important bits in there, but for others he misses the point completely 18:03:23 cwickert: I'm mixing two things together probably. 18:03:31 first of all the ambassadors are not meant to be a beginners group 18:03:59 I'm not sure they can be compared to Ubuntu's loco teams 18:04:10 in fact, we don't have something like the loco teams 18:04:57 ok, do we agree to the findings of this analysis? 18:05:01 cwickert: we don't, but they have some similar tasks as our ambassadors (local support, promotion, event presence,...). 18:05:47 sure, but this was not evaluated. while there are more loco people than ambassadors (I guess), we rock events better than Ubuntu 18:05:51 cwickert: well, I don't agree completely, not at all. But there are some valid bits. 18:05:56 ack 18:06:40 but I don't think we can do much about the valid points. 18:07:05 such as having a nice cool website for newcomers etc. 18:07:33 this is something I don't agree to 18:07:39 he writes: "The wiki is a bit boring, to be honest. It lacks the colorfulness of mozilla.org and the 1-2-3 steps of ubuntu.com" 18:07:46 I understand wiki is not the most friendly presentation tool, but it's the best tool we can handle as a community. 18:08:05 I agree we don't have fancy graphics, but we have a click trough wizard to join the ambassadors 18:08:15 and I am not sure if we can improve it 18:09:16 do you guys think we need better graphics? 18:09:21 +1 cwickert. that's a good/easy-to-understand process 18:09:44 "Has an structure around regions and a central committee. Much like LoCo teams, but feels a bit more "RedHat-ish". Specially considering those stock market names: Asia Pacific (APAC), Europe, Middle East, and Africa (EMEA), Latin America (LATAM), and North America (NA)." This is kinda interesting point of view. I've never thought of it like this. 18:10:07 does it feel too corporate-ish to you? :) 18:10:40 and is it bad or good? I think it's completely irrelevant, neutral. 18:10:43 not at all. it's just the regions, but that doesn't make it salesman'ish 18:10:56 this is not "RedHat-ish". it's American-style :) 18:11:06 tuanta, +1 18:12:04 anyway, I just wanted to bring it up as another look at our program. That's it. 18:12:21 cwickert: btw kital forwarded it to our mailing list. 18:12:51 personally, I don't think the "survey" owner tried to "live" in the real community before making that report 18:12:58 we are running too late, can we end up the meeting 18:13:19 lets open a ticket for this one 18:13:33 or better on the mailing list? 18:13:33 we should be with in time limit of 1 hours I think 18:13:49 just something got from websites, wikis, etc 18:13:55 * cwickert things mailing list is best 18:14:11 ok, I'll forward it to our mailing list. 18:14:27 I think it is on the list already 18:14:39 I mean, we can just continue on the ambassadors list 18:14:45 cwickert: ok then 18:14:59 ok, but please everybody, reply 18:15:10 anything else to discuss tonight? 18:15:18 sesivany: you meant forwarding to famsco mailing list? it's not necessary, I think 18:15:34 #topic openfloor 18:15:58 FADNA is coming up in 2 days 18:16:03 or 3 i mean 18:16:30 hello nb :) 18:16:39 hi 18:16:39 nb: yes, herlo told us. Too bad I'll arrive too late to join. 18:17:01 if there is anything else to discuss, I'll end the meeting. 18:17:15 cwickert: did you want to discuss the fama joining process? 18:17:31 or would you prefer to do it elsewhere? I know it's getting late for you. 18:18:47 I will just bring it up in the ticket 18:18:57 it's over 1 am here, too late for me. it's really better if we can complete the meeting within an hour. 18:18:57 In fact I already have started creating one 18:19:39 ok, let's end the meeting. Thank you, everyone, for coming. 18:20:09 cwickert: will you be able to chair the meeting next week since I and herlo will be flying home? 18:20:14 sure 18:20:20 cwickert: sounds good 18:20:22 and i will be also 18:20:26 I doubt there will be a meeting 18:20:36 should we just officially cancel it? 18:20:52 #proposal cancel next week's meeting since many of us will be traveling home from FUDCon Lawrence 18:20:56 +1 18:21:01 +1 18:21:04 +1 18:21:08 +1 18:21:10 +1 18:21:14 +| 18:21:17 +1 18:21:20 there is not much we can do as long as not all regions have finished their budgets 18:21:45 #action all regions to finish their budgets pleeeease 18:21:59 lets discuss the regional budget on mailing list 18:22:04 can someone #agreed cancel next week's meeting since many of us will be traveling home from FUDCon Lawrence 18:22:10 * nb doesn't htink he has a chair or he would do it 18:22:25 #chair nb 18:22:25 Current chairs: aeperezt cwickert herlo nb sesivany tuanta 18:22:36 #agreed cancel next week's meeting since many of us will be traveling home from FUDCon Lawrence 18:22:45 thanks herlo 18:22:48 np 18:23:10 * bckurera not having #chair but it is ok :) 18:23:19 cwickert, sesivany what is emea doing for media? 18:23:38 right now the multidesktop script doesn't do secureboot 18:23:43 although dgilmore was saying they are working on it 18:23:43 #chair bckurera 18:23:43 Current chairs: aeperezt bckurera cwickert herlo nb sesivany tuanta 18:23:45 nb: emea is waiting and hoping spot will fix the uefi issue soon. 18:23:57 sesivany, ok, i think that is what we are doing too in NA 18:24:04 * bckurera thanks tuan 18:24:20 robyn is checking on the status of the PO so i'm not actually sure if iti s ready yet anyway 18:24:29 nb: but I can hold it just for several days, it's already partly in production. 18:25:18 oh 18:26:00 nb: spot says he'll fix it before going to FUDCon. Fingers crossed. 18:26:16 sesivany: peter and i are working hard on it 18:26:48 sesivany, spot great 18:28:42 * sesivany is ending the meeting. Thank you for coming. 18:28:48 #endmeeting