17:00:04 <sesivany> #startmeeting FAmSCo 2013-02-11
17:00:04 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Feb 11 17:00:04 2013 UTC.  The chair is sesivany. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:04 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:10 <sesivany> #meetingname famsco
17:00:10 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famsco'
17:00:16 <sesivany> #topic Roll call
17:00:18 <tuanta> .fas tuanta
17:00:21 <sesivany> .fas eischmann
17:00:37 <aeperezt> .fas aeperezt
17:02:05 <aeperezt> helo
17:02:09 <sesivany> looks like zodbot doesn't work today...
17:02:28 <nirik> sorry, there's an outstanding issue with the fedora plugin.
17:02:31 <aeperezt> sesivany, yes looks like it is sleeping
17:02:31 <nirik> we are working on it. ;)
17:02:43 <nirik> everything should work aside from the fas / fasinfo commands
17:03:51 <sesivany> but we know each other, so no problem.
17:04:09 <sesivany> ping: cwickert
17:04:11 * cwickert is here but is busy with dayjob
17:04:17 <sesivany> cwickert: ok
17:04:31 <sesivany> ping: nb
17:04:31 <cwickert> I will follow the meeting, but I don't have much to say
17:05:12 <sesivany> ok, let's wait a bit more if someone else will show up.
17:05:24 <tuanta> it's in Lunar New Year holidays here at this moment, but I can attend normally.
17:05:51 <sesivany> tuanta: happy new year! ;-)
17:06:05 * tuanta thanks
17:06:10 <aeperezt> tuanta, here is Caranaval so lots of party but my work schedule is US so no matters
17:06:30 <tuanta> :)
17:06:44 <sesivany> tuanta: we've been in the new year for over a month and I can tell you it's almost the same as the last year :)
17:07:03 <tuanta> :)
17:07:37 <tuanta> so it is here :)
17:07:50 <sesivany> #info present: sesivany, tuanta, aeperezt, cwickert
17:08:17 <aeperezt> sesivany, :)
17:08:26 <sesivany> #chair sesivany tuanta aeperezt cwickert
17:08:26 <zodbot> Current chairs: aeperezt cwickert sesivany tuanta
17:08:52 <sesivany> ok, let's start
17:09:01 <sesivany> #topic Announcements
17:09:06 * herlo 
17:09:14 <sesivany> welcome herlo
17:09:19 <herlo> ahh, too slow :/
17:09:29 <sesivany> any announcements today?
17:10:14 <aeperezt> no
17:10:24 <aeperezt> from me
17:10:27 <sesivany> I'm sorry that I'm a bit passive in the last days, but I'm very busy organizing Developer Conference 2013.
17:10:42 <herlo> sesivany: no worries
17:10:49 <sesivany> there are several hundred people coming to Brno for the conference and there a lot of logistics.
17:11:03 <sesivany> it will be over on Feb 25th.
17:11:11 <aeperezt> sesivany, sounds great no worries
17:11:31 <herlo> sounds fun
17:12:07 <sesivany> maybe one announcement...
17:12:15 <sesivany> have you seen the final schedule for F19?
17:12:20 <sesivany> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/19/Schedule
17:12:45 <tuanta> yes
17:12:58 <cwickert> uh, the schedule has changed *again*?
17:13:03 <sesivany> the release date is not great for promotion since it's at the beginning of summer holidays and all students are out of schools and others on holidays,...
17:13:22 <sesivany> cwickert: AFAIK this is the final version
17:13:22 <herlo> I suppose that depends on whether college students are our focus
17:13:44 <herlo> but it fits well for having a FUDCon in July :)
17:13:45 * herlo hopes
17:13:51 <cwickert> we'll miss the two largest events in EMEA
17:14:05 <sesivany> cwickert: unfortunately yes :-(
17:14:16 <herlo> cwickert: do those events happen in late may or early june?
17:14:30 <cwickert> herlo: yes
17:14:37 <herlo> bummer...
17:14:43 <tuanta> humm..
17:14:44 <cwickert> means: one is late may, the other early June
17:14:49 <herlo> long cycles cause delays, I guess.
17:15:16 <sesivany> cwickert: but we didn't make it with F17 for LinuxTag last year either.
17:15:40 <sesivany> cwickert: it's just too early considering Fedora is always delayed.
17:15:48 <cwickert> sesivany: if F17 was in time, it would have made itr
17:16:23 <sesivany> anyway, that's the schedule. I'd like to get to jreznik and discuss some changes in ambassadors schedule.
17:16:55 <sesivany> it needs some updates. For example the deadline for release parties is IMHO not necessary.
17:17:34 <sesivany> ok, let's start with the first topic.
17:17:43 <sesivany> #topic Regional budgets for FY14
17:18:00 <sesivany> I've sent the budget proposals to rbergeron.
17:18:06 <herlo> cool
17:18:17 <tuanta> cool
17:18:22 <sesivany> but it will probably take some time till she gets back to us.
17:18:43 <sesivany> because the budget planning for FY14 in Red Hat is not yet done.
17:18:53 <tuanta> what are all the next steps to get it approved?
17:19:20 <sesivany> and until she knows how much money she gets for Fedora Project, she can't tell us if the budget proposals are realistic and acceptable or not.
17:19:44 <herlo> or rather, how much of what we requested each region will receive
17:20:20 * tuanta meant: we are just waiting for rbergeron response? or we need to do anything?
17:20:21 <sesivany> tuanta: now we have to wait for rbergeron, I'll be pinging her regularly.
17:20:45 <tuanta> understood
17:20:52 <aeperezt> cool
17:20:54 <sesivany> tuanta: now, we don't have to do anything, the ball is on her side :)
17:21:08 <tuanta> :)
17:21:16 <aeperezt> that is ok. Think it will be part of the process
17:21:35 <aeperezt> and have to be better as time passes
17:22:28 <aeperezt> sesivany, I think in part that what hold the fudcon desicion too?
17:22:31 <sesivany> it's very possible that we'll start the fiscal year without knowing if it's approved or not because the budget planning in Red Hat sometimes takes too long. Then we'll start with the budget drafts.
17:23:48 <sesivany> aeperezt: yes, the NA and EMEA fudcons are on hold, but LATAM and APAC fudcons shouldnt be affected, you're on track ;)
17:25:00 <sesivany> anything else to the budgets?
17:25:53 <tuanta> bad news: APAC almost decided not to hold FUDCon this year. We did not find any host teams :(
17:26:12 <sesivany> anyway, thank you, all who participated in the budget planning. I think it's a great improvement in our overall planning in ambassadors program.
17:26:36 <sesivany> tuanta: that's really unfortunate :-(
17:26:48 <tuanta> :(
17:26:56 <sesivany> tuanta: is there any way Red Hat can help?
17:27:10 <sesivany> for example some office in APAC to host it and help organize it?
17:27:32 <tuanta> not sure. we thought to Harish, but I see he is super busy
17:27:40 <sesivany> tuanta: I know the office in Beijing is quite large.
17:27:52 * bckurera sorry guys got late :)
17:28:14 <tuanta> sesivany: I would be helpful if we can get in touch with them
17:28:19 <aeperezt> tuanta, o
17:28:42 <sesivany> tuanta: ok, let me get to some people in Red Hat and I'll see what I can do.
17:29:03 <tuanta> cool
17:29:22 <sesivany> tuanta: have we ever had FUDCon in China?
17:29:38 <tuanta> yes. never
17:29:54 <sesivany> #action sesivany to ask people in Red Hat if they can help with FUDCon in APAC.
17:29:54 <tuanta> they submitted a bid last year
17:30:13 <aeperezt> sesivany, they bid once before
17:30:26 <tuanta> yes, thank. maybe Red Hat Bejing or Singapore, both are ok
17:30:33 <aeperezt> tuanta, I do recall that
17:30:34 <sesivany> tuanta: maybe it would be worth asking the people behind the bid directly.
17:30:44 <sesivany> if they're interested in hosting it this year.
17:31:19 <tuanta> sesivany: I personally contacted to some *potential* teams, but no luck
17:31:46 <sesivany> tuanta: ok, let me do my homework and we'll see.
17:31:59 <tuanta> it's great if Red Hat can help us in this case
17:32:12 <sesivany> ok, let's move on...
17:32:18 <tuanta> ok
17:32:46 <sesivany> I've got one long-term problem to discuss...
17:33:11 <sesivany> #topic Trademark guidelines and swag production
17:33:20 <tuanta> yes
17:33:31 <sesivany> We were at FOSDEM last week...
17:34:07 <sesivany> and while all other projects could sell Fedora stuff such as t-shirts or hoodies, we had nothing.
17:34:22 <sesivany> and there were looots of people asking for it.
17:34:56 <sesivany> I know it's been discussed for ages and it's been a big no-no, but I'd like to do something about it, at least to try.
17:35:04 <bckurera> i saw the Ruth answer for this, so we need to wait :)
17:35:12 <tuanta> a big issue
17:36:15 <sesivany> not only we don't satisfy our fans that want to bring a Fedora t-shirt from such events, but it also harms our marketing because people in our t-shirts are walking ads :)
17:36:50 <bckurera> sesivany ; this is certain a big issue, but how can we control this that is the main drawback here, Did you guys talk about this with Robyn at FOSDEM?
17:38:05 <sesivany> bckurera: well, I saw Robyn there just on Fri, she had troubles with her stolen suitcase.
17:38:33 <sesivany> what are your ideas about this?
17:39:15 <tuanta> poor her, Robyn :(
17:39:24 <sesivany> I'd like to see some way to grand the right to produce Fedora stuff to a certain number of vendors, e.g. one per region or something like this.
17:40:43 <sesivany> instead of allowing it and controlling, we forbid it and some vendors produce it anyway and we have no control over it, they break logo guidelines,... so the situation is even worse.
17:41:03 <bckurera> sesivany, i agree with you, however we have no much power here to make a decision, we can draft a proposal and will forward to the Board
17:41:05 <aeperezt> sesivany, right
17:41:40 <bckurera> shall we start a thread on this on FAmSCo mailing list, with what are the drawbacks and how to over come them?
17:41:55 <sesivany> bckurera: that would be great.
17:42:13 <bckurera> at the same time we can research who produce Fedora and distribute with no proper permission as well :)
17:42:44 <sesivany> I know we have no big power here, but we can at least show that FAmSCo sees it as a big problem and wants to do something about it.
17:43:03 <bckurera> furthermore we need to maintain a vendor list so that others can refer to original vendors :)
17:43:29 <sesivany> anyone willing to write the initial email to start the discussion?
17:43:36 <bckurera> sesivany I ll do it
17:43:43 <sesivany> bckurera: ok, great.
17:44:06 <tuanta> cool
17:44:09 <bckurera> I was thinking of this since I saw the email from FAm list, we do this
17:44:22 <bckurera> shall we add it as an action item ?
17:44:42 <sesivany> #action bckurera to write an email to famsco list to start a discussion about trademark guidelines and allowing vendors to produce Fedora swag
17:45:06 <cwickert> hold on
17:45:23 <cwickert> what are we talking about here? trademark or swag production?
17:45:29 <cwickert> these are two separate issues
17:45:44 <cwickert> of course we can produce swag
17:45:49 <cwickert> but we cannot make any money
17:46:03 <cwickert> this means we will never be able to sell swag
17:46:18 <cwickert> so what problem are we discussing here?
17:46:22 <sesivany> cwickert: we were talking about granting the right to produce fedora stuff to certain vendors.
17:46:34 <sesivany> cwickert: paid stuff
17:46:51 <cwickert> I don't think this is going to happen
17:46:59 <cwickert> but if, how do you expect this to work?
17:47:27 <cwickert> I mean, how does that enable *us* to have shirts at an event?
17:47:30 <herlo> we give away t-shirts and the like. What is the harm in that?
17:47:52 <cwickert> that's not the question, is it?
17:47:54 <herlo> we built this into the budget request we just submitted and don't bother selling them
17:47:59 <sesivany> cwickert: a vendor will apply somewhere (probably Board)...
17:48:01 <herlo> well, it is relevant, I think...
17:48:28 <cwickert> seems herlo and sesivany are talking about two different things already
17:48:37 <herlo> cwickert: I'm just reading up
17:48:46 <cwickert> herlo: when you say "give away" that means "for free", right?
17:48:56 <herlo> and from my pov, selling swag seems like a no-no. So why not give them away, yes for free.
17:49:12 <sesivany> cwickert: the problem I want to solve is that we don't have more expensive stuff such as t-shirts or hoodies...
17:49:12 <bckurera> This is regarding vendors produce fedora branded items (tshirts..etc) so that people can buy it and wear it
17:49:13 <cwickert> ok, than this is totally unrelated to having vendors
17:49:23 <herlo> I have no problem trying to get a vendor to produce more expensive stuff like polos and hoodies and the like
17:49:34 <sesivany> cwickert: we can't receive any money, so the only way is that we allow someone else to produce it and sell it.
17:49:54 <cwickert> sesivany: right, but even that won't help us on an event
17:50:11 <herlo> sesivany: so the question there is, what kind of vendor is going to spend the time to 'apply' to sell our merchandise. I don't see enough of a profit in it...
17:50:51 <cwickert> herlo: I do see profit, but the problem is that we are granting the trademark for free. the vendors will make the money and we get nothing in return
17:50:53 <bckurera> #link http://www.zazzle.co.uk/eat_sleep_fedora_tees-235773473262448559
17:51:12 <bckurera> interesting to see we can buy Fedora stuff, who gave them right to do so?
17:51:17 <cwickert> bckurera: trademark guidelines violation
17:51:25 <cwickert> nobody gave them a premission
17:51:26 <sesivany> cwickert: I know that some projects have a deal with the vendor that they give them stuff to sell at the event and the project then gives back to the vendor money and some portion stays in the project, but that's something we don't have to do.
17:51:32 <herlo> bckurera: I suppose they are doing that without permission
17:52:00 <bckurera> Yes so if we come to a negotiation with them we can have proper Fedora branded products
17:52:09 <bckurera> win-win situation :)
17:52:51 <bckurera> They say it is Euro 16 with no shipping?
17:53:11 <bckurera> what you guys think, is it reasonable for that price?
17:53:28 <bckurera> seems like they are making good profit out of that too
17:53:40 <cwickert> bckurera: how can we negotiate about something we don't own?
17:53:53 <cwickert> and where is the win for us?
17:54:25 <sesivany> cwickert: well, the win is that such stuff is at least available.
17:54:44 <bckurera> So many people in here ask me for Fedora tshirts for money, but we dont have them, even no potential to produce and distribute free
17:54:54 <bckurera> then these vendors produce them and sell
17:55:21 <bckurera> they get a profit and we get the brand with in the society, marketing
17:55:57 <bckurera> cwickert , dont you think that the board can take a decision on this?
17:56:26 <cwickert> bckurera: yes, the board cannot grant the trademark
17:56:33 <bckurera> OR we need to create a platform like novel/openSuse are doing
17:56:42 <sesivany> I think we're already behind the 15-minute mark. Let's move it to the mailing list as we intended.
17:56:53 * cwickert bangs his head against the wall
17:57:04 <tuanta> Trademark owned by Red Hat
17:57:18 <tuanta> cwickert: calm down :)
17:57:19 <cwickert> ok, who is to write an email?
17:57:25 <bckurera> Yes I know but the Board and negotiate and direct RedHat
17:58:01 <cwickert> it's really sad that we have to explain this over and over again.
17:58:59 <tuanta> lets move on
17:59:09 <sesivany> ok, let's move it to the mailing list where we can clearly state our ideas and opinions.
17:59:55 <bckurera> +1
18:00:26 <sesivany> do we have any other topics to discuss today? I don't have anything else in my mind.
18:00:56 <sesivany> if not, let's move on to the open floor
18:01:06 <tuanta> nothing more from me too
18:01:43 <sesivany> #topic openfloor
18:03:59 <sesivany> if you have nothing else to discuss, I'll end the meeting in a minute.
18:04:26 <bckurera> Nothing from me
18:05:09 <sesivany> thant you for coming today, see you in one week!
18:05:18 <sesivany> #endmeeting