17:00:08 <sesivany> #startmeeting FAmSCo 2013-04-29
17:00:08 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Apr 29 17:00:08 2013 UTC.  The chair is sesivany. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:08 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:15 <sesivany> #meetingname famsco
17:00:15 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famsco'
17:00:23 <sesivany> #topic Roll call
17:00:28 <sesivany> .fas eischmann
17:00:28 <zodbot> sesivany: eischmann 'Jiri Eischmann' <eischmann@redhat.com>
17:01:01 <herlo> .fas herlo
17:01:02 <zodbot> herlo: herlo 'Clint Savage' <herlo1@gmail.com>
17:01:37 <sesivany> aeperezt, cwickert, nb: ping
17:01:50 * cwickert is here
17:01:53 <cwickert> .fas cwickert
17:01:53 <zodbot> cwickert: cwickert 'Christoph Wickert' <christoph.wickert@googlemail.com>
17:02:04 <sesivany> #info tuanta sent regrets for this meeting
17:04:14 <bckurera> hi
17:04:27 <sesivany> ok, great, we reached the quorum.
17:04:36 <bckurera> .fas bckurera
17:04:37 <zodbot> bckurera: bckurera 'Buddhika Kurera' <bckurera@gmail.com>
17:04:55 <sesivany> #chair sesivany cwickert bckurera herlo
17:04:55 <zodbot> Current chairs: bckurera cwickert herlo sesivany
17:05:43 <sesivany> #topic Announcements
17:05:53 <sesivany> any announcements today?
17:06:40 <sesivany> have you already heard about Flock?
17:06:52 <sesivany> #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Flock
17:06:53 <herlo> yes
17:07:04 * herlo is waiting for more detail before weighing in
17:07:47 <sesivany> herlo: I guess everyone is waiting for more details. They were cooking it kinda behind closed door :)
17:07:50 * cwickert heard of it
17:08:00 <cwickert> well, we knew it was coming
17:08:09 <herlo> sesivany: yes, and Sparks sure let them know how much he didn't like it :)
17:08:12 <cwickert> but we didn't know what was coming
17:08:17 * herlo agrees with Sparks
17:08:36 <sesivany> I think it could be a good opportunity for FAmSCo to meet in person, what do you think?
17:08:48 <sesivany> of course everything relies on travel budget.
17:09:47 * herlo won't likely be there
17:09:52 <herlo> the timing is *very* poor
17:10:00 <bckurera> yeah budget and the location
17:10:07 <sesivany> bckurera: location is clear
17:10:09 <bckurera> I think it will be USA most of the time
17:10:15 <herlo> the location isn't an issue for me.
17:10:18 <sesivany> bckurera: Charleston, SC
17:10:27 <herlo> bckurera: it's supposed to switch between NA and EMEA
17:10:43 * cwickert needs to disconnect from a vpn, brb
17:10:44 <bckurera> yeah noted that !
17:10:46 <herlo> and FUDCons continue in APAC/LATAM
17:11:34 <sesivany> timing is not great, it starts right after GUADEC which I'm organizing and it's in the middle of holiday season...
17:12:02 <herlo> sesivany: yeah, holiday season here is the big problem for me
17:12:23 <herlo> I don't think we'll see great attendance. If it were in say 'May/June' it would be better...
17:12:49 <herlo> right after finals at Universities seems good.
17:12:52 <herlo> anyway, I digress
17:13:05 <herlo> we should move to something else to discuss
17:13:10 <sesivany> anyway, it's going to be shortly after FAmSCo elections, so right now, it's hard to anticipate who's going to be in FAmSCo. So let's leave it for later when we know more.
17:13:18 <herlo> aye
17:13:42 <sesivany> #topic F19 release parties
17:14:05 <sesivany> F19 final release is coming nearer (hopefully).
17:14:28 <sesivany> we've got a couple more weeks to start a call for release parties...
17:14:38 <sesivany> #link http://fedorapeople.org/groups/schedule/f-19/f-19-ambassadors-tasks.html
17:15:23 <sesivany> are we going to do something special this time? something like the contest we did last time?
17:15:54 <sesivany> frankly, I didn't find the contest a good idea.
17:16:03 * herlo agrees
17:16:09 <herlo> it wasn't well received in NA for sure
17:16:20 <sesivany> something like a small present for every organizers seems to me like a better idea.
17:16:59 <bckurera> yes I would like to agree with sesivany +1
17:17:22 <sesivany> the idea I proposed at the other meeting was a special F19 T-shirt for every release party event owner.
17:17:48 <sesivany> but that's something we'd have to ask money for. In EMEA, we can't certainly afford it.
17:18:13 <herlo> sesivany: +1
17:18:34 <herlo> sesivany: I especially like the idea of a t-shirt, save the fact that someone has to design it...
17:19:01 <herlo> though if the t-shirt is commonly themed, and only the words change it could be easy enough. As long as we can get a good price.
17:19:02 <sesivany> so what about finding out in each region how much it would be? to estimate how many t-shirts we'd have to give away, how much more we'd spend on shipping etc.
17:19:46 <sesivany> and how much would it be to produce it locally in smaller batches compared to one big order for all regions.
17:20:39 <sesivany> then when we have a plan and an idea about the budget, we can go to rbergeron or rsuehle and ask for something.
17:21:13 <bckurera> This is interesting we can ask help; the design team to come with a design
17:22:06 <bckurera> All the organizers are getting a tshirt as a gift, right
17:22:22 <sesivany> in EMEA, we probably would not have any additional shipping costs because we send packages to release party organizers anyway, but it doesn't have to work this way in all regions.
17:23:14 <bckurera> we have problems with shipping in APAC, yet we have no plan to produce swags in a central location too.
17:23:54 <bckurera> China and india would be best places to look for centralized production since it is really cheap
17:24:10 <sesivany> so can you bring this up at your regional meetings to figure out how much it would cost to do such a thing in your region?
17:24:38 <bckurera> I think it is better to write a mail to ML, rather waiting for the meeting
17:25:03 <sesivany> bckurera: ok, I'll do that.
17:25:48 <sesivany> #action sesivany to write to the ambassadors mailing list about the "t-shirt for every release party event owner" idea.
17:25:56 <bckurera> sesivany I ll do it for APAC with creating a ticket in trac so that it can be tracked as well
17:26:28 <aeperezt> .fas aeperezt
17:26:29 <zodbot> aeperezt: aeperezt 'Alejandro Perez' <alejandro.perez.torres@gmail.com>
17:26:38 <aeperezt> sorry been late
17:26:46 <bckurera> anyway we have a meeting on next Saturday and I ll bring it up then
17:26:50 <sesivany> aeperezt: no problem, welcome!
17:27:09 <bckurera> hi aeperezt , welcome :)
17:27:53 <sesivany> aeperezt: what about you? do you think that a t-shirt for every release party event owner could work in LATAM?
17:28:28 <sesivany> aeperezt: the first question is if we want to produce the t-shirts locally, or at one place for the whole world.
17:28:52 <sesivany> aeperezt: then another question is distribution in the region.
17:30:08 <sesivany> ok, any other thoughts on this?
17:31:19 <aeperezt> I think it will be good
17:31:30 <aeperezt> how ever shipping cost can be an issue
17:31:46 <herlo> I think we can discuss these details in email? maybe?
17:31:58 <herlo> I think the idea is a good one, and merits much more discussion.
17:31:59 <sesivany> aeperezt: do you send packages to release party organizers or not?
17:32:11 <sesivany> herlo: yeah, definitely.
17:32:16 <aeperezt> and since we are not make thousend of this tshirts make them on cheap cost of production will not help
17:32:35 <sesivany> herlo: I'm going to write an email to the ambassadors mailing list.
17:32:39 * herlo proposes we move this discussion to email... though I don't have a dog in the fight, so maybe someone else could start it?
17:32:42 <aeperezt> sesivany, we don't send packages for now
17:32:43 <herlo> sesivany: great!
17:32:57 <aeperezt> we are going to start testing that with regular mail soon
17:33:37 <sesivany> bckurera: btw did you finish the contest thing or APAC just gave up that?
17:35:34 <sesivany> ok guys, do you have anything else to discuss?
17:35:55 * cwickert needs to leave, sorry
17:36:16 <herlo> sesivany: I have something for open floor
17:36:39 <sesivany> herlo: ok, if no one has a specific topic, let's move on to the open floor.
17:37:10 <sesivany> #topic Openfloor
17:37:55 <herlo> I've been working a while as the FAmA Administrator. And I want to make a fairly big change, so I thought I'd ask for advice here and any input
17:38:20 * herlo looks something up first
17:39:04 <herlo> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/341 <-- a while back, cwickert posted this ticket
17:39:07 <bckurera> ok
17:39:27 <herlo> I'm planning to respond to this with the following change in procedures, but wanted input first.
17:39:34 <herlo> First, some rationale
17:40:03 <herlo> Over the past three weeks, I've been unable to break away from work enough to process new FAS applications for ambassadors.
17:40:33 <herlo> I finally was able yesterday to take 3 hours to file new tickets, add users to the mailing list, manage expired tickets, etc.
17:40:54 <herlo> Normally, this stuff takes about 1-2 hours. I usually have a bit more time, to complete these tasks
17:41:01 <herlo> but lately, I've felt very much a bottleneck
17:41:34 <herlo> to alleviate this bottleneck, I propose two basic changes. None of my changes are in the recommendations cwickert provided in the ticket noted above.
17:42:17 <herlo> First, I am going to create a mailing list for FAmA mentors. Doing so will allow communication between mentors for things like questions about what the process should be and let things organically grow from there.
17:42:53 <herlo> Second, I am going to open up ticket creation/modification to mentors. This would allow the bottleneck to be removed from me at least from that point of view.
17:43:15 <sesivany> herlo: I like the idea of the mailing list. I actually miss communication with other mentors.
17:43:43 <sesivany> herlo: to discuss what should be requirements candidates should meet etc.
17:43:47 <herlo> Since there still needs to be a vetting process, I (meaning the FAmA administrator) would continue to process sponsorships and rejects. Closing tickets and removing applicants as needed.
17:43:54 <herlo> sesivany: yes, thank you.
17:44:32 <herlo> I would still send a monthly email (which I failed to do in March) about the stats and welcome new ambassadors.
17:44:41 <herlo> I would still manage the mailing list
17:44:49 <herlo> ambassadors ml, that is
17:45:04 <herlo> but mentors would take a greater role in managing their candidates
17:45:20 <herlo> specifically, the change presented would look something like this:
17:45:30 <sesivany> herlo: so what would be the process? a candidate would apply, an email would go to the mailing list and anyone could pick it up and take care of the ticket?
17:45:42 <herlo> sesivany: no
17:45:49 <herlo> here's the process as I think it will go
17:45:59 <herlo> the candidate applies for membership in FAS, just like before
17:46:24 <herlo> however, the next step would require the candidate to contact a mentor, instead of waiting for a ticket.
17:46:43 <herlo> once the mentor is contacted, the ticket is filed *by* the mentor, who would then be the owner.
17:47:16 <herlo> the ticket is easy to file. The only real requirement is that the mentor ensure a simple format in the ticket description and add the candidate in the cc field
17:47:23 <herlo> after that point, the mentoring process would be the same.
17:47:42 <herlo> any thoughts, questions, concerns?
17:48:02 <sesivany> herlo: it makes sense to me. As a mentor, I have no problem with that.
17:48:42 <bckurera> it looks good
17:48:46 <sesivany> herlo: my only condition is that it needs to be well-documented since there will be more people doing that,.
17:48:47 <herlo> sesivany, et al., I should mention that I actually have some software that might alleviate even this process, making the ticket creation automatic. But it needs a bunch of testing.
17:48:53 <bckurera> but surely increase the workload for mentors :)
17:49:30 <herlo> bckurera: very little actually. Since the mentors do most of the work, it's good for them to be involved from the beginning. They are generally more available and this task is only one more step
17:49:56 <sesivany> having to create a ticket is not much overhead.
17:50:13 <herlo> right, so the mailing list serves two purposes.
17:50:24 <herlo> First, as sesivany said, to communicate amongst mentors.
17:50:24 <sesivany> actually, it'd be welcome because I'd have control of the process from the beginning.
17:50:56 <herlo> Second, provides a canonical list of mentors so we can make sure to grant proper access to those individuals in trac. :)
17:51:11 <herlo> sesivany: I was hoping someone would voice that as a good thing :)
17:51:38 <herlo> sesivany: I hope me as a bottleneck is seen as a bad thing, and giving more control to the mentors is well received.
17:52:01 <herlo> sesivany: and yes, the mailing list can help with the process too.
17:52:06 <sesivany> herlo: first moment, I read provides Canonical with a list of mentors :D
17:52:13 <herlo> lol
17:52:40 <herlo> it's a shame they used that name for their company. I understand why they did, but it's confusing in tech circles so often...
17:52:50 * herlo digresses
17:52:59 <herlo> any other thoughts, concerns, questions?
17:53:51 <sesivany> herlo: I basically agree with the changes? What would be the steps? I suggest to create the mailing list where we can discuss all further changes with other mentors.
17:54:07 <herlo> sesivany: right, that is my plan :)
17:54:14 <herlo> I'm going to file a ticket with infra shortly
17:55:09 <cwickert> re
17:55:40 <cwickert> I like the idea with the mailing list and I also think avoiding bottle necks is good
17:56:05 <cwickert> however I don't see that my idea has been considered or anything that speaks against it
17:56:49 <cwickert> I mean, is there something that will not work if the candidate files the ticket himself?
17:57:18 <herlo> cwickert: I think the problem with the candidate filing the ticket is that it opens it up too far.
17:57:40 <cwickert> opens up what?
17:57:42 <herlo> having the candidate file a ticket doesn't require any effort on their part. They should be mentored, thus it really isn't their responsibility.
17:58:06 <cwickert> I think we should let them do as much as possible
17:58:08 <herlo> cwickert: people are going to know how to file tickets. I fear that they will edit/modify tickets that really aren't for them.
17:58:27 <herlo> s/going to know/going to need to know/
17:59:04 <cwickert> AFAIK we haven't seen that elsewhere
17:59:12 <herlo> I also think having the candidate contact the mentor and having the mentor file the ticket is the right approach since it's the mentor who ultimately will manage the process.
17:59:24 <herlo> with the minor exception of approval/rejection from fas
17:59:44 <cwickert> yes, the mentor managed the process, that's why he should be the assignee
17:59:52 <herlo> cwickert: I'm actually trying to compromise to your request. I just didn't see the need to further open it up.
17:59:54 <cwickert> s/managed/manages
18:00:25 <herlo> cwickert: I suspect many new candidates will forget to set certain things, like the cc, for instance. If we only have to train a small amount of people on this, it'll be easier.
18:00:32 <sesivany> well, we can always give a try and close it up again if it proves not to work.
18:00:37 <herlo> right
18:00:45 <cwickert> give what a try?
18:00:48 <herlo> I also don't want the format of the description to change...
18:01:13 <herlo> which new candidates will likely get wrong and we'll end up doing more work to clean that up...
18:01:20 <sesivany> cwickert: to open it as you say and if it doesn't work, we can go for herlo suggests.
18:01:44 * herlo doesn't want to do that
18:01:52 * cwickert cannot follow
18:02:04 <cwickert> I think sesivany misunderstood herlo
18:02:47 <sesivany> the discussion is about giving candidates rights to create tickets, right?
18:03:18 <herlo> sesivany: yeah, I don't want to do that...
18:03:48 <herlo> Here's some other concerns.
18:03:56 <herlo> I've seen this happen on other trac instances as well.
18:04:20 <sesivany> herlo: well, both solutions flow my boat, so I don't have a problem.
18:04:40 <herlo> A candidate files a ticket, and doesn't contact a mentor or assign it properly. It gets left there for X weeks. I close the ticket, reject the candidate from the group and no mentor ever is notified.
18:04:54 <herlo> The candidate gets upset because they failed to read...
18:05:12 <herlo> they are definitely not doing things properly, but it's still an issue we have to deal with
18:05:14 <sesivany> herlo: that makes sense...
18:05:38 <herlo> an additional one I've seen, is that some random FAS account holder files a ticket in fama trac just because they think it's the best place to do so...
18:05:42 <herlo> more cleanup :(
18:05:58 <sesivany> herlo: I actually have candidates who contacts me, they have a ticket, but when I send them requirements, they never reply back.
18:06:04 * herlo doesn't want to spend time cleaning up. He wants to approve new ambassadors and grow the community. :)
18:06:10 <herlo> sesivany: exactly.
18:06:16 <sesivany> opening a ticket after some initial conversation makes sense.
18:06:34 <herlo> I think the onus is on the candidate and always has been. This just makes it more so.
18:07:24 <herlo> It's not different, really, other than the process is shifted toward a less bottlenecked approach. But we can discuss more details on the soon-to-be-created fama-mentors mailing list :)
18:08:01 <sesivany> herlo: yes, let's continue with that in the new mailing list.
18:08:42 <herlo> :)
18:08:51 <sesivany> anything else?
18:08:56 <herlo> thanks everyone for your input! :)
18:09:12 <HannahEeps> hello. I wanted to introduce myself.
18:09:41 <herlo> HannahEeps: hello! We're about to close the meeting. If you wish to chat further, we can talk in #fedora-ambassadors. :)
18:09:55 <HannahEeps> sounds good
18:09:57 <herlo> HannahEeps: unless you have something relevant to the famsco meeting...?
18:10:23 <HannahEeps> no sounds good
18:10:37 <sesivany> thank you, everyone for attending today and meet you next week!
18:10:42 <herlo> HannahEeps: cool, see you in #fedora-ambassadors...
18:10:48 <sesivany> #endmeeting