17:00:23 <sesivany> #startmeeting FAmSCo 2013-05-06
17:00:23 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon May  6 17:00:23 2013 UTC.  The chair is sesivany. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:23 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:26 <sesivany> #meetingname famsco
17:00:26 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famsco'
17:00:32 <sesivany> #topic Roll call
17:00:33 <tuanta> .fas tuanta
17:00:34 <zodbot> tuanta: tuanta 'Truong Anh Tuan' <tuanta@iwayvietnam.com>
17:00:38 <sesivany> .fas eischmann
17:00:39 <zodbot> sesivany: eischmann 'Jiri Eischmann' <eischmann@redhat.com>
17:00:58 <tuanta> hello, I am back :)
17:01:03 <aeperezt> .fas aeperezt
17:01:04 <zodbot> aeperezt: aeperezt 'Alejandro Perez' <alejandro.perez.torres@gmail.com>
17:01:16 <aeperezt> hello tuanta
17:01:35 <nb> .fas nick@bebout
17:01:36 <zodbot> nb: nb 'Nick Bebout' <nick@bebout.net>
17:01:53 <tuanta> hello aeperezt et all
17:02:03 <sesivany> great, we've got a quorum today :)
17:02:21 <sesivany> let's wait a few more minutes for others...
17:03:05 <aeperezt> hello all
17:04:22 <sesivany> ok, let's start...
17:04:28 <sesivany> #topic Announcements
17:04:42 <sesivany> does anyone have an announcement to say?
17:05:51 <tuanta> nope from me
17:05:54 <sesivany> seems like there are no announcements...
17:06:17 <sesivany> ok, let's move on then
17:06:38 <sesivany> #topic F19 t-shirts for contributors
17:06:58 <sesivany> as I promised I started a discussion in the ambassadors mailing list.
17:07:20 <sesivany> have you seen that?
17:07:31 <tuanta> yes, I see. an interesting discussion.
17:07:46 <aeperezt> yes good points
17:08:18 <sesivany> yeah, some claimed that having t-shirts just for release party organizers is not fair.
17:08:38 <aeperezt> sesivany, right
17:08:38 <sesivany> I agree, but I've got one concern.
17:08:40 <tuanta> I share ideas with John to have it for all contributors (not only ambassadors). I think, that's also our point.
17:08:43 <aeperezt> and true
17:09:31 <tuanta> what concern, sesivany?
17:09:32 <aeperezt> but I don't think we have budget to make that many t-shirts or to send them
17:09:51 <sesivany> we might make it so big that we won't be able to make it happen. So the result may be that we won't have t-shirts for anyone just not to discriminate.
17:10:19 <tuanta> T-shirt for all contributors so budget should come from other sources, not one for ambassadors
17:10:42 <tuanta> sesivany: yes, that a big task
17:10:43 <aeperezt> the way I think is we wanted to do something special for those people that do release parties now ended up with nothing
17:10:53 <sesivany> tuanta: it's not only about the budget, if you want to send t-shirts to any contributors, it's logistically much more difficult.
17:11:11 <tuanta> but we can do one by one
17:11:41 <tuanta> we have a big plan for all contributors, but we can start with smaller groups like ambassadors
17:12:22 <sesivany> ok, let's assume that ambassadors can handle it. What do you think it would be the best approach? Should we produce it in each region locally?
17:12:41 <sesivany> tuanta: the problem is that we have a budget till May 20th, then it's gone.
17:13:12 <aeperezt> sesivany, that is the other consideration, if a t-shirt cost 3 dls to make send it to Panama may cost 15 dls to other countries that shipping can be higher making almost imposible to budget it if we can find a provider that wanted to do the logistics for us
17:13:56 <sesivany> I can produce, say, 200 t-shirts very quickly, but then how to distribute it to other regions?
17:14:17 <aeperezt> sesivany, we can produce them locally
17:14:46 <sesivany> the problem is that people say that every contributor should get a t-shirt, but no one says that he/she gives a helping hand.
17:14:50 <aeperezt> sesivany, depending on the amount of colors an all that we can make them here for between 5 to 8 each
17:14:58 <aeperezt> dls
17:15:09 <aeperezt> then is the shipping cost
17:15:35 <aeperezt> and countries like Argentina and Venezuela that people may ended up paying import taxes
17:16:27 <sesivany> aeperezt: the problem is how you'd pay for it? If I produce it here, I can charge Red Hat directly, no reimbursement and other hassle.
17:16:46 <sesivany> aeperezt: is there any way to pay for things by Red Hat in LATAM?
17:17:42 <aeperezt> sesivany, well in latam we can produce in Nicaragua then Neville can charge it to Red Hat credit card and I have ear that cost to make is cheaper than Panama
17:18:17 <aeperezt> the issue will be the logistics and shipping
17:18:32 <tuanta> Producing locally is better at first glance; but see more carefully, I think do that centrally is better because of quantity (about 100-200 at first, I think)
17:18:49 <sesivany> aeperezt: and time because based on experience, 14 days is damn short to trigger such a thing... :-/
17:19:36 <aeperezt> sesivany, I can make them on 14 days in Panama
17:19:41 <aeperezt> not sure Nicaragua
17:20:19 <tuanta> there are a lot of issues in shipping (import tax, etc.) in APAC regardless from EMEA or from other APAC countries
17:20:47 <sesivany> aeperezt: btw the problem with charging a community credit card is that payments made in May will land in RHT accounting in June, so we won't make this quarter.
17:20:51 <tuanta> also, we have not much time, so I vote +1 for the option to produce it centrally
17:21:38 <aeperezt> sesivany, well the other way around will be Chile or Brasil were Red Hat has offices but no idea that can be done on time
17:22:43 <aeperezt> sesivany, the way I see it, it is to late to create a t-shirt for all contributors and now we cannot make anything special for people that work on release parties
17:23:00 <sesivany> aeperezt: ok, for now, I'd go for the central production as first option. We can also explore local production options. But first we need the design.
17:23:04 <aeperezt> Maybe you can do for EMEA and that will be good
17:24:35 <sesivany> #info producing F19 t-shirts for contributors centrally seems to be more likely doable, but we'll explore local options, too.
17:25:02 <sesivany> #info it needs to be done in 2 weeks (very short time).
17:25:05 <aeperezt> If we want to use the budget that is left then we should made for EMEA and NA.
17:25:44 <tuanta> aeperezt: why don't we make for APAC, LATAM as well?
17:25:46 <aeperezt> pic up a design and make it happend or we lose the budget that is there and we must not allow that to happend
17:25:57 <sesivany> I'll also explore how expensive sending small packages worldwide is. In EMEA, it's about $4 for a package.
17:26:37 <aeperezt> tuanta, two issues we cannot paid them on time so it is spend on this quater budget
17:27:01 <aeperezt> and the logistics to send them to latam countries
17:27:11 <aeperezt> and Apac countries
17:27:16 <tuanta> but we are planning to produce T-shirts centrally in EMEA, right?
17:27:40 <sesivany> aeperezt: I think it'd be easier to send one t-shirt per package to APAC and LATAM than sending a big package with 100 t-shirts.
17:27:56 <tuanta> +1 sesivany
17:28:04 <sesivany> aeperezt: big packages attract customs much more
17:28:12 <tuanta> big +1
17:28:24 <sesivany> and small packages with one t-shirt may not even be applicable to taxation.
17:28:33 <aeperezt> sesivany, who is going to do the logistics
17:29:09 <tuanta> it got more efforts to sender, but much less efforts to receivers, especially in APAC
17:29:20 <aeperezt> sesivany, you need a list of all contributors with the t-shirt size, package it and send individually that plus how expensive it will be is the trick
17:29:29 <sesivany> so in the end, it might be even cheaper because I'd send small packages with normal mail, I wouldnt dare the same with an expensive package with 100 t-shirts.
17:30:32 <tuanta> sesivany: that's one thing I concerned. Thanks for that information.
17:31:01 <aeperezt> sesivany, to me it make more sense at this point create a special label for f19 and send it to all contributors that could be on a letter
17:31:09 <aeperezt> easy cheap and fast
17:31:11 <sesivany> aeperezt: criteria who's going to get one should not be our problem outside ambassadors. If other teams want to participate, they should do their homework and at least decide how's going to get them.
17:31:32 <tuanta> even you send a big package to a central point, you still need to divide to each one to send to each person
17:31:55 <tuanta> so sending one by one from beginning is much better
17:32:24 <aeperezt> sesivany, the logistics is going to be massive if we send to all amabassadors and other groups
17:33:30 <sesivany> aeperezt: definitely not all ambassador, only packagers have about 600 contributors, the whole contributor base of Fedora might have thousands of people. We certainly can't give a t-shirt to everyone.
17:33:55 <sesivany> for us, it's still the same: only release party organizers.
17:34:16 <aeperezt> sesivany, I'm trying to think how we can make it easy and simple to manage, maybe later we can create something more special
17:34:38 <sesivany> other teams will have an opportunity to recognize their contributors.
17:35:05 <tuanta> we have over 65,000 accounts registered in FAS
17:35:30 <sesivany> aeperezt: my plan is to produce some number of t-shirts for F19 to use the money left. Then we will have time to figure out how to use them. There is a plenty of options.
17:36:11 <sesivany> the decision is: t-shirts or no t-shirts.
17:36:32 <aeperezt> sesivany, on the other hand there are many countries with people on the ambassador list that don't do a thing for Fedora anymore
17:37:17 <tuanta> +1 t-shirts :)
17:37:28 <sesivany> aeperezt: as I said, for ambassadors, we'll have the t-shirt for organizing a release party, other teams will have to come up with some reasonable criteria, too.
17:37:32 <aeperezt> sesivany, well that is why, mention that we could made the t-shirts for EMEA and NA
17:37:53 <sesivany> aeperezt: only active contributors (and unfortunately not all of them) should get one.
17:38:28 <aeperezt> sesivany, lets do the t-shirts and see the logistics later
17:38:57 <aeperezt> sesivany, I know that all QA team deserve them
17:38:59 <tuanta> there are a lot of active ambassadors in APAC, aeperezt.
17:39:00 <sesivany> ok, I'll get the design a quotes for the next meeting, then we can move it forward.
17:39:12 <aeperezt> sesivany, right
17:39:46 <sesivany> #action sesivany to get a design for F19 t-shirts and get quotes from a vendor.
17:40:02 <sesivany> ok, let's move on, we've spent a lot of time on this.
17:40:21 <tuanta> ok
17:40:31 <sesivany> #topic Flock 2013
17:41:16 <sesivany> cwickert was complaining in the fudcon-planning mailing list that he didn't know about Flock and that it was replacing FUDCon EMEA and NA...
17:41:28 <sesivany> I know we touched it several times.
17:41:40 <sesivany> but is here anyone who didn't know about it?
17:42:06 <sesivany> because as cwickert pointed out no one approached us officially.
17:42:22 <tuanta> I announced it in the last APAC meeting
17:42:41 <tuanta> yes, just us, in FAmSCo :)
17:42:43 <aeperezt> sesivany, well I have to say it, we all have ear rummors about flock, and it came as a sorprise to see all created and done in not so open way
17:42:43 <sesivany> #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Flock
17:43:35 <aeperezt> the last time I read FAMSCO has to nominate someone to be on a commite in flock
17:44:04 <sesivany> aeperezt: yeah, I wasn't involved in planning it, I just kept hearing little info about it and I've known more only for last 3 weeks after it was revealed in the fudcon-planning list.
17:45:11 <sesivany> aeperezt: where did you read it?
17:45:21 <aeperezt> and sinces the organization of flock has a obscure or grey area not sure what we can solve around it if we discuss it
17:45:33 <sesivany> #info Flock is replacing FUDCon EMEA and NA
17:45:36 <aeperezt> sesivany, an email on the flock planning list
17:45:58 <sesivany> aeperezt: yeah, I see it.
17:46:08 <sesivany> #link http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/flock-planning/2013-April/000031.html
17:46:42 <tuanta> oh, a new mailing list
17:46:57 <sesivany> tuanta: yeah, there is a new one.
17:47:04 <aeperezt> sesivany, flock will have one FAMSCO member on therir committe
17:47:35 <tuanta> just subscribed
17:47:35 <aeperezt> I don't understand why we needed a separate list we could have that on the fudcon-planning list
17:47:42 <sesivany> aeperezt: still, we haven't been approached by anyone from the organizer's team.
17:47:50 <aeperezt> sesivany, right
17:48:19 <aeperezt> sesivany, and that will be for the conference committee
17:49:05 <tuanta> :)
17:49:13 <sesivany> should we wait or should we be proactive and ask them what's FAmSCo's role in Flock's planning?
17:49:40 * nb is somewhat concerned at the lack of transparency in flock planning
17:51:03 <sesivany> nb: I'm afraid that the damage has been done, the planning should have been transparent from the very first beginning.
17:51:10 <aeperezt> nb,  we all are
17:51:48 <nb> yeah
17:52:43 <aeperezt> sesivany, and we keep been in the dark
17:53:14 * nb wonders if we could send a request from famsco to the flock team to start being more transparent
17:53:22 <nb> about the planning process
17:53:40 <sesivany> nb: that's a good idea
17:54:01 <sesivany> I can do that
17:54:10 <nb> #proposal FAmSCo formally requests the Flock planning team to be more transparent with the Flock planning process.
17:54:15 <nb> +1
17:54:18 <sesivany> +1
17:54:26 <aeperezt> +
17:54:28 <aeperezt> +1
17:54:58 <sesivany> tuanta: your vote matters ;)
17:54:59 <nb> tuanta, ?
17:55:12 <tuanta> +1
17:55:17 <nb> great
17:55:31 <sesivany> #agreed FAmSCo formally requests the Flock planning team to be more transparent with the Flock planning process.
17:56:30 <sesivany> do you have anything else to discuss today?
17:56:48 <nb> i do not
17:57:14 <sesivany> #topic Openfloor
17:57:34 <sesivany> btw there is a discussion going on in the fama list.
17:57:39 <nb> sesivany, can you send our request to the planners? (i.e. spot, suehle, rbergero)?
17:58:02 <sesivany> nb: I'll write to the flock mailing list directly.
17:58:06 <nb> ok
17:58:23 <sesivany> nb: if we want them to be transparent, we should be transparent too :)
17:58:30 <nb> true
17:58:58 <sesivany> #action sesivany to write the request to the flock mailing list
18:00:11 <sesivany> ok, if there is nothing else to discuss, I'll end the meeting.
18:00:26 <sesivany> thank you, everyone, for attending today!
18:00:31 <sesivany> see you next week!
18:00:35 <tuanta> see you
18:00:55 <nb> see you next week
18:01:20 <sesivany> #endmeeting