16:00:54 <sesivany> #startmeeting FAmSCo 2014-04-15
16:00:54 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Apr 15 16:00:54 2014 UTC.  The chair is sesivany. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:54 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:01:00 <sesivany> #meetingname famsco
16:01:00 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famsco'
16:01:08 <sesivany> #topic Roll Call
16:01:34 <tuanta> .hellomynameis tuanta
16:01:35 <zodbot> tuanta: tuanta 'Truong Anh Tuan' <tuanta@iwayvietnam.com>
16:01:44 <robyduck> .fas robyduck
16:01:45 <zodbot> robyduck: robyduck 'Robert Mayr' <robyduck@gmail.com>
16:03:50 <sesivany> yn1v, masta: ping
16:04:03 <sesivany> lbazan: ping
16:04:04 <yn1v> .fas yn1v
16:04:04 <zodbot> yn1v: yn1v 'Neville A. Cross' <yn1v@taygon.com>
16:04:10 * yn1v Nicaragua
16:05:22 <sesivany> ok, let's start
16:05:50 <sesivany> #topic Regional Budgets for FY2015
16:06:04 <tuanta> FY2015 first?
16:06:05 <sesivany> I suppose we all have read the email from Ruth.
16:06:13 <tuanta> ý, ưe đi
16:06:17 <tuanta> yes, we did
16:06:19 <robyduck> yes
16:06:28 <yn1v> yes
16:06:50 <tuanta> they cut all off without any formulations :(
16:07:08 <tuanta> at least, APAC proposal has been bypassed
16:07:40 <sesivany> tuanta: how much did you get cut?
16:07:42 <lbazan> .fas lbazan
16:07:43 <zodbot> lbazan: lbazan 'Luis Enrique Bazán De León' <bazanluis20@gmail.com>
16:08:06 <tuanta> no relation between proposal and allocation or very small
16:08:28 <tuanta> sesivany, about a half
16:09:03 <sesivany> tuanta: I guess the only thing the budgets are based on is how much we spent in FY2014.
16:09:17 <tuanta> I will need to re-allocate budget on all our proposal
16:09:22 <tuanta> yes, I think so
16:09:42 <sesivany> The budget was the same as last year and e.g. EMEA got exactly the same amount we spent last year.
16:10:50 * robyduck still doesn't know when was decided to give 10k to APAC/LATAM FUDCons...
16:11:41 <yn1v> I am not very aware of details, but for LATAM it happened some years back
16:11:53 <robyduck> yn1v: you sure?
16:11:57 <tuanta> yes, robyduck. FUDCon Beijing team have to change their plan because of this budget cutting
16:12:11 * sesivany thought it was cut down from 20k to 15k, not from 15k to 10k, but I'm not sure.
16:12:22 <robyduck> sesivany: I remember the same
16:12:26 <robyduck> look: https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=FUDCon_budget_template&diff=376124&oldid=241140
16:12:33 <yn1v> Panama got 10K, not sure about venezuela
16:12:37 <robyduck> it was changed now
16:12:40 <tuanta> yes, you are right, sesivany
16:12:58 <yn1v> cuzco spent 15k but apparently only 10K came from fedora
16:13:19 <yn1v> there is a standing issue with aprox 5K from jsmith
16:13:19 <sesivany> aeperezt: are you here?
16:13:36 <sesivany> I think it was aeperezt who told me about the cut from 20 to 15.
16:14:00 * masta is here
16:14:11 <tuanta> sesivany, robyduck just posted a link
16:14:22 <tuanta> it shows exactly how the change
16:15:25 <sesivany> so it was a decision of Ruth apparently.
16:15:35 <robyduck> yes, it seems so
16:15:36 <tuanta> FUDCon KL 2012 also received 15k (managed by Harish)
16:15:45 <tuanta> I think 10k is not enough
16:15:57 <robyduck> but I don't know if it has been decided months ago and she just updated the wiki page
16:16:09 <lbazan> !
16:16:15 <sesivany> lbazan: go ahead
16:16:18 <yn1v> Ruth message is "ask for money" ... so I intend to make a more detailed event budget and ask for more.
16:16:19 <tuanta> it was not, robyduck
16:16:27 <lbazan> jsmith payd 4.5K
16:17:06 <tuanta> Beijing team knows they can have 15k from the beginning and they was planning so
16:17:17 <tuanta> now they need to change the plan
16:17:56 <tuanta> sesivany, how about Flock now?
16:18:00 <lbazan> jsmith he will ask a refund
16:18:01 <tuanta> do you know?
16:18:19 <lbazan> the total for peru = 15K or 14.5
16:18:19 <robyduck> lbazan: ok, but that's not the way we should budgetize FUDCons, IMHO. It doesn't make sense if someone pays out from his pocket and we don't even know if he got it back
16:18:38 <tuanta> +1 robyduck
16:18:44 <sesivany> tuanta: that's definitely a problem. If they changed rules after the organizers started planning the FUDCon.
16:19:30 <sesivany> does anyone have a link to the budget breakdown from the last year?
16:20:28 <tuanta> firstly, they responded so lately, then they did not tell them the exact fund; I just forwarded to FUDCon organizing team when I received the budget breakdown from Ruth
16:20:55 <tuanta> the organizing team did not know
16:20:57 <yn1v> hello jsmith we were talking about fudcon budget
16:20:59 <lbazan> jsmith: can you give more information about the budget used in fudcon peru
16:21:05 <tuanta> until I forwarded to them
16:21:32 <sesivany> I only found this: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Accounting
16:22:29 <tuanta> I suggested FUDCon Beijing team to contact Robyn and Ruth to ask for more fund
16:22:35 <sesivany> it looks like APAC always had 20k and LATAM 15k before the cuts.
16:22:59 <tuanta> but I am not sure they will respond them soon
16:23:04 <tuanta> the date is so closed now
16:23:20 <tuanta> yes, sesivany
16:23:29 <tuanta> a big problem, I think
16:23:40 <tuanta> the budget has been cut more and more
16:24:11 <tuanta> I am not sure if RH is willing to support those events/activities any more?
16:25:06 <sesivany> I really don't find very unfortunate that Flock takes 80 percent of our premier event budget.
16:25:27 <yn1v> I do not know about APAC. But my feeling is that FUDCon LATAM have been view as "not so much productive".
16:25:52 <tuanta> maybe, similar here, yn1v
16:26:16 <yn1v> I have to agree a bit, it is a lot of money and in the end you came up with a couple of permanent contributors
16:26:24 <tuanta> this is "chicken and egg" situation
16:27:45 <sesivany> that's right, but Flock expenses are not very efficient either. Last year, they fully sponsored whoever had an accepted presentation.
16:28:06 <sesivany> paying e.g. $2000 for a talk is IMHO too much as well.
16:28:32 <yn1v> I think that FUDCon is some how wrong. Either you make a public promotional event or you make a contributor fostering event, but trying both at the same time is hard to achieve
16:29:21 <yn1v> We are aiming for fostering contributors with a smaller event.
16:30:23 <yn1v> sesivany, yes is a lot, but is not a talk... is a person that is a contributor and you are giving him/her incentive to keep up the good work
16:31:39 <tuanta> +1 yn1v
16:31:50 <sesivany> yn1v: but the only criteria was to have an accepted talk, not to be a contributor. That's the problem. Instead of sponsoring people who need to participate in important discussions, they only sponsored speakers.
16:32:20 <lbazan> yn1v: +1
16:32:24 <robyduck> and this will be the same for Prague
16:33:19 <robyduck> But ok, if the overall budget is the same as last year, wanting more for the two FUDCons means it must be cut somewhere else
16:33:28 <sesivany> if it's a contributor conference and it should be mainly about getting together, discussing stuff and getting stuff done. But the last Flock was mostly about presentations.
16:34:18 <yn1v> so, we should propose a better aproach for next flock
16:35:04 <yn1v> people proposing talks have a FAS, something to hsare and intention to travel. It is a good start.
16:35:24 <yn1v> s/ hsare /share
16:35:51 <yn1v> But certainly has room for improvement
16:36:39 * sesivany is comparing the FY2014 and FY2015 budgets...
16:37:46 <yn1v> robyduck, some how Ruth message did not seem to say so. I understand that we want/need more, we should ask to get more. I did not understand that she meant to take budged from some else
16:38:09 <yn1v> but to look for more money
16:38:38 <tuanta> yes, I understood the same as yn1v
16:38:54 <robyduck> then it's even better :)
16:39:03 <yn1v> I think that she didn't want to look for more money if there was no need
16:39:08 <lbazan> tuanta: +1 she say 'simple ask'
16:39:24 <tuanta> just try to push everything well, spend money wisely, then we can ask for more money
16:39:27 <yn1v> but, I may be wrong.
16:39:41 <tuanta> we should confirm her :)
16:39:56 <tuanta> the first action, right?
16:40:04 <tuanta> who is volunteer? :)
16:40:13 <lbazan> tuanta: :S
16:40:27 <robyduck> the one whos asks always is the best volunteer :P
16:40:34 <tuanta> just kidding. we need to confirm her
16:40:38 <sesivany> volunteer to do what?
16:40:57 <tuanta> I will reply on the list
16:41:34 <sesivany> I did a little comparison: we actually got a couple of thousands more if I counted it correctly: 2014: 91,500, 2015: 95,000.
16:42:19 <tuanta> sesivany, include or exclude FUDCon and Flock?
16:42:26 <sesivany> what I found kinda ridiculous is that all the increase went to NA. Anyone has an idea why?
16:42:34 <sesivany> tuanta: exluding that
16:42:45 <tuanta> yes, I see, most to NA
16:43:03 <tuanta> while they do not publish everything :(
16:43:13 <tuanta> I have no idea why
16:43:33 <sesivany> yes, that's not very educating...
16:43:39 <yn1v> I recall that there are some expenses that are charged to NA that are for all regions
16:43:44 <lbazan> why need more.... NA?
16:44:14 <robyduck> yn1v: but they shouldn't go to NA this year any more
16:44:21 <sesivany> yn1v: yes, but that was also the last year. Nothing changed there. If they had added it this year I would understand.
16:44:59 <jsmith> yn1v: Yes, like stickers and case badges, as I recall
16:45:08 <sesivany> I don't like three things about the proposed budget:
16:45:09 <jsmith> yn1v: (which then get carried or shipped to the various other regions)
16:45:17 <yn1v> right, we need to identify those to reallocate accordingly
16:45:18 <robyduck> sesivany: is the Flock budget the same as last year?
16:45:42 <sesivany> 1. it includes costs of premier events which is a different budget that is treated differently.
16:46:11 <sesivany> 2. costs that are not related to NA budget haven't been excluded.
16:47:34 <sesivany> 3. NA got even more money than last year even though they did the worst job in budgeting and tracking expenses.
16:48:50 <tuanta> +1 for 1. budget for Flock and FUDCon should be separated.
16:49:13 <tuanta> and I do not know why 2 and 3 happened :(
16:49:21 <yn1v> having premier events in our budget will help us identify expenses that we were not aware before
16:50:42 <tuanta> all I can do now is to change APAC budget allocation (a big change since we proposed)
16:50:50 <tuanta> then try to keep it tracked
16:51:07 <tuanta> lets see if we need to ask for more money or not
16:51:12 <sesivany> yn1v: any example? Budgets are also tools of responsibility. You cannot mix expenses that have different parties as their owners.
16:51:53 <sesivany> yn1v: they have completely different processes to plan and approve.
16:51:56 <tuanta> yn1v, we manage budget for regional ambassadors (and a bit for FAmSCo) only
16:52:26 <tuanta> not for FUDCon and Flock (which responsible to event owners)
16:52:47 <sesivany> why would Flock budget be in EMEA budget if we have zero control over how it's spent?
16:52:59 <yn1v> last fiscal year reports did not match because there were expenses related to fudcon that were not paid by means that famsco can trac
16:53:00 <robyduck> sesivany: +1
16:53:23 <tuanta> we even do not know how much for Flock
16:53:46 <robyduck> tuanta: 80k
16:54:00 <robyduck> or do I remember it wrong?
16:54:10 <tuanta> robyduck, so the whole budget in Q2?
16:54:14 <tuanta> oh
16:54:24 <tuanta> EMEA has no budget in Q2?
16:54:24 <yn1v> sorry ... "means that famsaco can't track"
16:54:51 <robyduck> ah no, tuanta, 80k is Q2 which includes FLOCK, sorry
16:55:13 <robyduck> but we will not be far away from this
16:55:13 <tuanta> so, Flock budget maybe 50-60k or something
16:55:19 <robyduck> even more
16:55:22 <tuanta> the problem is we do not know
16:55:35 <sesivany> yn1v: I still don't understand how it would help to have it in one budget? It either comes from the premier event budget and that's in change of the organizers, Ruth and Robyn, or it comes from the regional budget and it needs to be approved by the local community and tracked there. If the regional community wants to support with money from their budget, there is no problem and it's trackable in the regional budget.
16:56:18 <tuanta> +1 sesivany
16:56:42 <robyduck> yes we had it always like this
16:56:42 <yn1v> As I see, if that is in our budget, next year we will know how much flock it was, no matter that we did not have control over it
16:57:51 <yn1v> same as fudcon, like jsmith not being reimbursed and we were not aware of that
16:58:19 <lbazan> yn1v: +1
16:58:35 <yn1v> I see that change as having the big picture, but also is more things to follow up.
16:58:40 <sesivany> yn1v: it's a matter of summing up two numbers: Flock budget + a Flock expense in the regional budget. Nothing more if you track expenses properly.
16:59:39 <jsmith> yn1v: The fact that I haven't been reimbursed is my own fault
16:59:45 <yn1v> that was last year issue with latam budget, we had blind spots and thing were not completely separated to be able to just add them together.
16:59:50 <sesivany> yn1v: how is jsmith's case caused by not having everything in one budget? If he was supposed to reimbursed, then it was supposed to be approved in one of the budgets.
17:00:23 <yn1v> jsmith, sure. But it seems wrong not knowing the pending issue
17:02:23 <yn1v> we are facing a change on how budget is accounted for. It is a change and we need to work it out.
17:02:46 <tuanta> Budget for FY2012 is a hot topic. We are over the time now.
17:03:14 <sesivany> yn1v: if you think that having FUDCon LATAM and the LATAM regional budget in one budget is beneficial to you, I have no problem with that. I just think it's mixing expenses with different parties accountable for them. What I completely refuse is to have a Flock budget in our regional budget because we have zero control over how it's spent and those two budgets are completely separated.
17:03:27 <tuanta> yn1v, FUDCon expenses should be accounted separately in the FUDCon
17:03:33 <tuanta> it would be easier
17:04:39 <yn1v> sesivany, I understand your point about flock.
17:04:43 <tuanta> sesivany, it is the same in APAC, both are completely separated
17:05:16 <tuanta> and I really want to have FUDCon budget tracked separately
17:05:18 <yn1v> I don't really want the budget, I just want the info.
17:05:39 <tuanta> what info, yn1v?
17:05:44 <tuanta> the expenses?
17:05:50 <tuanta> right?
17:05:51 <yn1v> yes
17:05:55 <sesivany> tuanta: yes, we're over time. We should probably continue at the next meeting and in the thread in the mailing list. I will definitely raise the concerns there.
17:06:03 <tuanta> yes, we are talking about that
17:06:36 <robyduck> sesivany: +1
17:06:37 <tuanta> both estimated budget and actual expenses
17:06:54 <tuanta> ok, we need to discuss this more over the list
17:07:03 <lbazan> +1
17:07:31 <sesivany> ok, guys, it was a productive discussion, let's continue with it later.
17:07:47 <tuanta> an action for sesivany?
17:07:59 <tuanta> we should head this up again on the list
17:08:30 <sesivany> #info FAmSCo was discussing budgets for FY2015 and will continue with it at the next meeting and in the mailing list.
17:08:46 <sesivany> meet you next week!
17:08:53 <tuanta> ok, see you
17:09:17 <robyduck> yes, see you
17:09:33 <sesivany> #endmeeting