16:00:17 <sesivany> #startmeeting FAmSCo 2014-10-21
16:00:17 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Oct 21 16:00:17 2014 UTC.  The chair is sesivany. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:17 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:19 <sesivany> #meetingname famsco
16:00:19 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famsco'
16:00:22 <sesivany> #topic Roll Call
16:00:27 <tuanta> .fas tuanta
16:00:27 <zodbot> tuanta: tuanta 'Truong Anh Tuan' <tuanta@iwayvietnam.com>
16:00:44 <sesivany> tuanta: I'm just half present, I still don't feel half of my head :)
16:00:56 <cwickert> .fas cwickert
16:00:57 <zodbot> cwickert: cwickert 'Christoph Wickert' <christoph.wickert@gmail.com>
16:01:33 <sesivany> it's really strange to drink coffee when you don't feel half of your lips :)
16:01:42 <tuanta> sesivany, :)
16:05:02 <sesivany> #info robyduck sent regrets, he is on his way to FUDCon LATAM.
16:05:49 <sesivany> I guess lbazan and yn1v are also busy with the FUDCon.
16:06:00 <sesivany> who else is missing?
16:06:01 <tuanta> +1 sesivany
16:06:05 <sesivany> masta, right?
16:06:06 <tuanta> masta
16:06:54 <sesivany> ok, I think we should discuss one big topic...
16:07:04 <sesivany> FOSCo and the Outreach representative.
16:07:21 * tuanta has just ping masta on #fedora-ambassadors
16:07:25 <sesivany> #topic FOSCo and outreach representative in the Council
16:07:30 * masta is here
16:08:03 <sesivany> AFAIK you almost agreed on cwickert last time which I have no objection to if cwickert wants to do it.
16:08:45 <cwickert> sesivany: sure
16:08:48 <cwickert> why not
16:09:05 <tuanta> I also sent notifications to design and marketing mailing list to call for more nominations
16:09:18 <tuanta> they are Outreach teams too
16:09:31 <cwickert> were there responses?
16:09:33 <tuanta> so they may have some ones to nominate
16:09:33 <sesivany> cwickert: 5 hours a week sound a bit scary, but who else can do it than you :)
16:09:46 <cwickert> sesivany: yes, I know
16:09:57 <tuanta> cwickert, no response from design team
16:10:24 <sesivany> well, if they don't have any candidate, then it's simple.
16:10:25 <tuanta> some responses from marketing but just for clarifying more information
16:10:48 <tuanta> when is the deadline?
16:11:24 <sesivany> marketing and design team have never had some governance structure which brings some doubt into how they would participate in FOSCo. They just don't seem to be used to doing such a kind of thing.
16:13:24 <sesivany> and what are your opinions on FOSCo?
16:13:32 <tuanta> sesivany, regarding to FOSCo, I think it would be good to cover all Outreach teams, people
16:13:32 <sesivany> and dissolving FAMSCo :)
16:13:51 <tuanta> it should be replaced for FAmSCo
16:14:08 <cwickert> I think for now we should just go for FAmSCo
16:14:24 <cwickert> and look if we can replace it with FOSCo later
16:14:44 <cwickert> this means now the person would be a famsco member, later maybe somebody else
16:14:46 <tuanta> yes, FOSCo should be later
16:14:58 <tuanta> +1 cwickert
16:15:01 <cwickert> please note that we are not electing somebody anyway
16:15:11 <cwickert> it is up to the FPL to elect somebody
16:15:11 <sesivany> yeah, that was my original idea, but then I was like if we should make a change, let's do it now with F22 elections. But that's really a subject for discussion.
16:15:17 <cwickert> we just make suggestions
16:15:42 <cwickert> or the FPL would just reach out to the person in charge and say "Hey, are you willing to do this?
16:16:06 <cwickert> so I am not sure if we should really put much effort into formalizing a process
16:16:07 <tuanta> yes, it makes sense
16:16:15 <cwickert> like election guidelines and all this
16:16:30 <sesivany> cwickert: yeah, that's one of the parts of the reform I don't like much, that too much power is centralized in one person. Elected people can only make suggestions.
16:16:37 <cwickert> we don't want to have this in the council, we just want productive people and work together nicely
16:16:47 <cwickert> sesivany: this is not set in stone yet
16:17:00 <cwickert> and note that some seats will still be elected
16:17:16 <cwickert> and for the appointed ones, nothing really changes much
16:17:16 <tuanta> FOSCo and Outreach representative in the Council should be two separated topics
16:17:49 <sesivany> the outreach representative is a "hotter" thing now.
16:17:56 <cwickert> the FPL always had and has veto powers, so he could say "I don't like this candidate, present me another"
16:18:09 <sesivany> but we don't have a quorum to make a formalized suggestion today anyway :/
16:18:23 <cwickert> not that it has ever happened, but by definition the FPL has veto to anything
16:18:47 <sesivany> cwickert: yes, as Debian clearly shows, democracy is also not the best model for open source projects :)
16:18:50 <tuanta> sesivany, we agreed that in the last meeting
16:19:01 <sesivany> tuanta: cool
16:19:05 <tuanta> just you and cwickert were missing
16:19:15 <cwickert> hahaha, I was not there but elected ;)
16:19:24 <tuanta> :)
16:19:25 <sesivany> ok, then there is no action from FAmSCo needed now.
16:19:29 <cwickert> anyway, I would like to do it
16:19:31 <tuanta> cwickert, you are here today :)
16:19:33 <sesivany> cwickert: that sometimes happens :)
16:19:37 <cwickert> should we document this in the ticket?
16:20:01 <tuanta> so I think FAmSCo should nominate cwickert
16:20:24 <tuanta> cwickert, I think we can note it in this meeting logs
16:20:37 <sesivany> I guess tuanta should do it, I was not at the meeting either.
16:20:38 <masta> cwickert: the fine tradition of people who miss meetings are assigned the action items.
16:21:01 <cwickert> #info cwickert will be nominated as FAmSCo outreach for the Fedora council
16:21:14 <sesivany> it would look funny: cwickert who wasn't present was elected and it's documented by sesivany who wasn't present either :D
16:21:14 <tuanta> +1 cwickert
16:21:19 * cwickert didn't dare writing "agreed" as we have no quorum
16:22:12 <sesivany> cwickert: I agree that creating FOSCo would require a lot of work on processes and wiki page rewriting.
16:22:27 <tuanta> there were four attendees in the last meeting too
16:22:56 <tuanta> sesivany, then it should be the latter work
16:23:30 <tuanta> we will prepare it for the next elections (F21?)
16:23:54 <cwickert> tuanta: I am not sure of there will be F21 elections
16:24:02 <cwickert> let me clarify this with the board
16:24:11 <tuanta> cwickert, why not?
16:24:20 <tuanta> ok. please check it
16:24:24 <sesivany> cwickert: there should be for FAmSCo at least.
16:24:33 <cwickert> agreed
16:24:39 <tuanta> +1 sesivany
16:25:00 <sesivany> the same goes for FESCo
16:25:07 <cwickert> tuanta: only if we decided to replace famsco with something else, and we might also change the way how this new body is constituted
16:25:07 <sesivany> just the Board will be dissolved.
16:25:16 <cwickert> but this is probably taking too much time
16:25:31 <cwickert> I mean, the council was discussed at flock already and we are still not done
16:25:34 <masta> I think Fosco will be great, it shows we as an org have learned from our own and others mistakes. Not sure dissolving can improve the same ways.
16:25:50 <cwickert> masta: +1
16:25:58 <tuanta> +1 masta
16:26:00 <masta> ... dissolved famsco can ...
16:26:01 <sesivany> cwickert: I was thinking about having representatives of regions there instead of randomly elected ambassadors.
16:26:37 <tuanta> sesivany, but we still need elections inside each regions?
16:26:47 <tuanta> that could be more complicated
16:27:04 <sesivany> if we go for FOSCo, regions will be strong organizational units with even more competences than now.
16:27:32 <sesivany> because FOSCo can't do micromanagement in the ambassadors program.
16:27:52 <tuanta> it is what we hope, may not be what it has already
16:28:06 <sesivany> tuanta: they can just nominate someone. Not sure if full-featured elections should be required.
16:29:10 <tuanta> people have more chances to nominate and cast a vote in the current elections
16:30:05 <tuanta> I don't think informal voting in regional meetings or mailing list could replace it
16:30:35 <sesivany> tuanta: sure, that's a subject of discussion, I'd rather have representatives of regions there than random ambassadors. But we can also have other seats open for elections.
16:31:01 <tuanta> ok, sesivany. it is open
16:32:00 <sesivany> tuanta: we can have the best ambassadors in the committee, but if some region doesn't have a representative there it's a problem.
16:32:07 <sesivany> we've been there, tried that.
16:33:00 <sesivany> and we are only talking about the ambassadors part, there should also be positions for other parts of the project (marketing, design,...).
16:33:34 <tuanta> yes
16:34:25 <sesivany> anyway the general consensus is that FOSCo is something we want in the future, we're just not sure about the timeframe, right?
16:34:48 <tuanta> I think so.
16:35:40 <cwickert> +1
16:35:54 <cwickert> I think we first should think about a concept
16:36:06 <cwickert> and we should also see if/how the council works out
16:36:14 <masta> this is starting to sound like some kind of confluence of different parts of the project.
16:36:17 <cwickert> if it doesn't, there is no need to copy it's design
16:36:21 <sesivany> #info The general consensus in FAmSCo is that FOSCo is something we want in the future. We just don't have consensus on when. Whether it should start with the next elections or later when other changes settles down.
16:37:33 <sesivany> masta: I'm actually getting excited about it because I hope it will improve coordination between the teams and programs.
16:38:01 <sesivany> I don't think the cooperation between ambassadors, marketing, and the design team is not the level it should be.
16:38:22 <sesivany> remove the "not" :)
16:38:50 <sesivany> half of my head is still not fuctioning :)
16:39:07 <sesivany> ok, let's move to the next topic...
16:39:20 <sesivany> #topic F21 media
16:39:40 <sesivany> have you read my last mail on this topic (ambassadors and markething list)?
16:39:49 <tuanta> yes, sesivany
16:40:17 <sesivany> #link https://fedorahosted.org/emea-swag-tracking/ticket/422
16:40:35 <sesivany> it's summerized in the ticket.
16:41:03 <tuanta> I also prefer LiveDVD for Workstation and LiveCD for NetInst (defaulting to Server)
16:41:14 <sesivany> tuanta: about production of DVDs for APAC: I'm a bit worried it will be a long shot, but maybe it's doable.
16:41:35 <tuanta> thanks sesivany
16:42:06 <sesivany> tuanta: yeah, but I haven't really seen a strong demand for the server CD.
16:42:33 <sesivany> but it's ultimately a question for regions, if they want to make server CD, why not?
16:42:34 <tuanta> sesivany, you can send to a central point in APAC then we will see how to distribute them
16:43:07 <sesivany> deciding what we want to do on the FAmSCo level is more about suggestions and letting the design team know what artworks they need to do.
16:43:23 <tuanta> sesivany, I think NetInst CD for Server is useful
16:43:34 <sesivany> but in the end it's regions' money what will pay the production.
16:44:04 <sesivany> cwickert, masta: your opinions on netinst cd for Server?
16:44:08 <tuanta> especially whenever we attend an event where we meet technical guys
16:44:33 <cwickert> sesivany: I have no strong feelings about this
16:44:43 <cwickert> it's up to the server guys to decide
16:44:58 <masta> cwickert: noticed that mentioned in todays server WG, I'm fine with netinst images.
16:45:23 <sesivany> ok, I'll ask the design team to make artworks for Server, too.
16:45:43 <sesivany> then it will be up to regions and their budget situation if they want to produce it or not.
16:46:02 <tuanta> +1 sesivany
16:46:09 <sesivany> cwickert: we may also be able to produce some usb sticks, we have a lot of money in the budget left.
16:46:14 <cwickert> sesivany: would the mini dvds be any cheaper?
16:46:41 <cwickert> if it is just netinstall, we can use mini
16:46:49 <cwickert> tuanta: will there be a server netinstall?
16:47:00 <sesivany> cwickert: they don't produce them any more because they don't work with Macbook-like dvd drives which is something I didn't think about.
16:47:03 <tuanta> yes, cwickert
16:47:10 <cwickert> sesivany: I see
16:47:41 <cwickert> I am not sure if we should do server media
16:47:56 <sesivany> cwickert: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/EMEA/Budget:2015 - this is our current financial situation, as you can see we've been underspending a lot.
16:48:02 <cwickert> I would rather spend that money on an alternate desktop media
16:48:13 <sesivany> cwickert: so flash drives are doable from the budget perspective.
16:48:25 <masta> flash drives!
16:48:37 <cwickert> hold on
16:48:43 <cwickert> let us please structure this a bit
16:48:45 <tuanta> cwickert, you may be right. I have no strong feelings on it too
16:49:03 <Southern_Gentlem> -1
16:49:05 <cwickert> 1. we should talk about the message we want the users to get
16:49:17 <cwickert> everything else should be up to the regions
16:49:38 <cwickert> therefor we sould not discuss budget or how many media of what kind we should produce
16:49:46 <Southern_Gentlem> -1 to flash drives that is
16:50:13 <sesivany> cwickert: the answer to the message to users is that we want to ship the official products.
16:50:48 <Southern_Gentlem> sesivany,  you can still do about 10 multidesk dvds for the price of one flash drive
16:51:11 <sesivany> since there is some interest in the server wg, we should ask the design team to produce artwork for workstation and server and regions can then decide.
16:51:23 <cwickert> sesivany: if that is the answer, then we are done. however I wonder if we really discussed this. I mean, did we ever discuss this in the regional meetings? do we have any feedback what the ambassadors want or is it only what we in famsco want?
16:52:25 <sesivany> cwickert: we discussed the topic at the regional meeting, no one had any objections, I don't know how about other regions.
16:52:45 <tuanta> cwickert, we have done that in APAC meetings
16:53:03 <cwickert> and?
16:53:11 <cwickert> I mean, I don't want to push anything
16:53:19 <tuanta> but not much
16:53:22 <cwickert> and I totally understand we want to focus on the products
16:53:33 <cwickert> however I wonder if there is a need for an alternate media
16:53:41 <cwickert> just a question, nothing more
16:54:01 <sesivany> cwickert: LATAM is considering an alternative media.
16:54:21 <sesivany> cwickert: they may want to produce some Xfce Spin DVDs.
16:54:41 <cwickert> sorry, I have to leave now
16:54:50 <cwickert> and I mean immediately
16:54:55 <sesivany> they want something that is light-weight because there are still a lot of old computers there.
16:54:59 <tuanta> APAC has no final decision now
16:55:02 <sesivany> cwickert: ok, see ya.
16:55:04 <cwickert> my laptop will remain here and I will read the backlog later
16:55:19 <tuanta> cwickert, se you later
16:55:24 <sesivany> I frankly will have to leave soon too.
16:55:39 <sesivany> should we just end the meeting?
16:55:43 <tuanta> so do I
16:55:50 <tuanta> yes, I think so
16:55:52 <sesivany> masta: do you have any plans for media in NA?
16:56:50 <masta> sesivany: I will have to ask Southern_Gentlem, or we can make plans, and I'll let you know later.
16:57:22 <sesivany> masta: ok, please let us know.
16:57:35 <masta> sesivany: we will at least make workstation media on DVD like usual.
16:58:04 <sesivany> masta: looks like the current options are: Workstation, Server, and alternative light-weight version of Fedora (probably the Xfce spin),
16:58:07 <Southern_Gentlem> sesivany, we are most likely doing our standard plan of multidesktop dvds
16:58:33 <masta> I woulde like to also promote the server product on DVD, as that is a new thing... and we can appeal to many via that route.
16:58:35 <Southern_Gentlem> that reachs the most people
16:59:05 <Southern_Gentlem> people wanting server are the types that will download it
17:00:01 <masta> sesivany: there you have it. =)
17:00:46 <sesivany> southern_gentlem: multidesktop DVDs is something that is not in the plans right now. The agreement has been that we want to deliver the product message all the way to the user, so we'd like to make media only with the official products (and the alternative light-weight option if necessary), but it's just a suggestion by FAmSCo.
17:01:46 <masta> I have another meeting starting.
17:01:58 <masta> Please excuse me. Bye
17:02:12 <sesivany> ok, let's end it, we can discuss it further in the ambassadors or marketing mailing list.
17:02:20 <Southern_Gentlem> sesivany,  as an ambassador i will have to fully say you are trying to shoot us people who are in the trenches doing the events in the foot
17:05:02 <Southern_Gentlem> sesivany,  so the message your are sending is we dont care about the other workstation desktops  (which the mutli-lives shows off ) for 95% of the audience attending events
17:06:10 <sesivany> southern_gentlem: believe me, I represent Fedora at 15-20 a year and talk to users. I understand the consequences, but Fedora.Next is about focusing our efforts on three products and it also means marketing efforts. Distributing media that don't reflect that is kinda sabotaging that effort. But if some region feels that they need to produce multidesktop DVDs, they can.
17:06:33 <sesivany> 15-20 events
17:07:32 <Southern_Gentlem> i am seeing the lives isos being tested by QA if that was the case why are the spins continueing
17:08:08 <tuanta> sesivany, I have to go now
17:08:22 <sesivany> anyway, I really need to go now. You're more than welcome to open the topic on one of the relevant mailing lists. It has actually been discussed there for a while.
17:08:24 <tuanta> I have a meeting early tomorrow morning
17:08:30 <sesivany> #endmeeting