14:18:10 <haraldh> #startmeeting Fedora Base Design Working Group (2015-06-29)
14:18:10 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Jun 29 14:18:10 2015 UTC.  The chair is haraldh. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:18:10 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:18:14 <haraldh> #meetingname  Fedora Base Design Working Group
14:18:14 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_base_design_working_group'
14:18:18 <haraldh> #chair haraldh msekleta jreznik dgilmore vpavlin masta dwalsh
14:18:18 <zodbot> Current chairs: dgilmore dwalsh haraldh jreznik masta msekleta vpavlin
14:18:21 <haraldh> hi
14:18:34 <jreznik> hi
14:18:41 <lnykryn> hi
14:21:33 <haraldh> anybody else?
14:21:46 <haraldh> ping  dgilmore dwalsh haraldh masta msekleta vpavlin
14:22:06 <haraldh> ok, msekleta is travelling
14:22:57 <haraldh> ping  dgilmore dwalsh masta vpavlin
14:25:54 <haraldh> #topic Summer Time .. it's hot
14:26:08 <haraldh> everybody on the beach, it seems
14:27:59 <lnykryn> still no excuse, you can have your laptop there. :)
14:32:50 * masta looks in
14:32:56 <masta> hello folks =)
14:34:32 <haraldh> uuuhh.. hi masta
14:35:31 <haraldh> #topic Accept new members
14:35:53 <haraldh> so, jreznik and masta , do you think we can add lnykryn to our team?
14:35:59 <haraldh> Do you know him?
14:36:12 <haraldh> Want to ask him some questions?
14:36:22 <masta> hi lnykryn
14:36:26 <lnykryn> hi
14:36:27 <haraldh> team == Base WG
14:36:49 <masta> haraldh: no, have not had the pleasure to know him yet. =)
14:37:15 <haraldh> lnykryn, maintains systemd and initrscripts
14:37:18 <lnykryn> maybe small introdution, I maintain some init related stuff and want to get rid of some legacy parts of the base system
14:37:24 <haraldh> so he is as base as it can get :)
14:37:52 <masta> hehe... seems that way.
14:39:07 <haraldh> ofc, additional non-RH members would be preferred... but ... well seems like they don't grow on trees
14:39:22 <masta> hehe
14:39:43 <masta> so I *was* to be the token no-RH person, but then RH hired me. =(
14:40:04 <haraldh> jreznik, still there?
14:40:07 <masta> so anyways...
14:40:35 <haraldh> So, it seems we have a +1 from msekleta, my +1
14:40:45 <masta> lnykryn: after doing some quick google stalking on you, I've decided you would be a good fit for the team.
14:40:55 <lnykryn> :) thanks
14:40:58 <haraldh> and if masta and jreznik have a +1, too, we would be good to go :)
14:40:58 <masta> +1 lnykryn
14:41:17 <lnykryn> vpavlin has also voted by mail a couple of weeks ago
14:41:22 <haraldh> ah, true
14:41:47 <haraldh> well, then congrats and welcome lnykryn :)
14:41:56 <lnykryn> thank you for accepting me
14:41:57 <jreznik> haraldh: disrupted by phone call :(
14:42:05 <jreznik> give a second
14:42:09 <masta> Yeah! welcome.
14:42:15 <striker> lnykryn: the systemd guy?
14:42:41 <jreznik> +1 lnykryn
14:42:52 <haraldh> #topic readonly root - plan to get rid of fedora-readonly? drop in favor of <http://0pointer.net/blog/projects/stateless.html>?
14:43:10 <lnykryn> ok so that was my suggestion for a topic
14:43:20 <haraldh> So, one of the first suggestions by lnykryn were to deprecate fedora-readonly
14:43:33 <haraldh> in favor of the systemd mechanisms
14:43:56 <lnykryn> currently we have  nastay script which was part of rc.sysinit back then
14:44:15 <masta> has anybody tested fedora-readonly recently? does that even work anymore?
14:44:28 <lnykryn> masta: it does sort of
14:44:30 <haraldh> masta, that is a really good question
14:44:39 <lnykryn> we have tested it with rhel7 release
14:45:13 <lnykryn> so at least back then it was working
14:45:40 <lnykryn> only downside with systemd solution is, that we will break current /etc/rwtab.d/* "interface"
14:46:05 <haraldh> could we provide a generator for that?
14:46:16 <lnykryn> I think so
14:46:33 <haraldh> on the other hand, we would have to deprecate it first for one RHEL release... right?
14:46:59 <lnykryn> right
14:47:31 <haraldh> Well, then my proposal would be to try and write a generator
14:47:38 <lnykryn> ok, will do
14:47:53 <haraldh> and add a big fat "deprecated" warning to the config files
14:47:59 <haraldh> and maybe documentation
14:48:21 <haraldh> or just leave it as it is with the deprecation warning
14:48:26 <haraldh> IDK
14:48:35 <masta> so rwtab.d is just a list of stateful mount, right?
14:48:43 <haraldh> yes/no
14:48:46 <lnykryn> yes
14:48:49 <haraldh> it's also "copy" and mkdir
14:49:07 <lnykryn> we can do the same things with tmpfiles
14:49:11 <haraldh> true
14:49:39 <haraldh> RW_MOUNT=/var/lib/stateless/writable
14:49:44 <haraldh> STATE_MOUNT=/var/lib/stateless/state
14:49:58 <lnykryn> the statetab will be more interesting
14:50:23 <lnykryn> because it needs some network volume, but it should be fine
14:50:29 <lnykryn> in most cases
14:50:50 <haraldh> /etc/statetab /etc/statetab.d/*
14:51:16 <haraldh> ... ouch:
14:51:17 <haraldh> if mount | grep -q /var/lib/nfs/rpc_pipefs ; then
14:51:17 <haraldh> mount -t rpc_pipefs sunrpc /var/lib/nfs/rpc_pipefs
14:51:17 <haraldh> fi
14:51:28 <masta> eww
14:51:53 <haraldh> anyway, can be removed, with systemd dependencies, I guess
14:52:24 <masta> yeah, probably
14:52:29 <lnykryn> I think so, I will look into it
14:53:25 <haraldh> maybe a documentation for the transition from the old config files to tmpfiles would be handy also
14:53:55 <masta> that would be nice to have
14:54:26 <haraldh> reminds me of /etc/fstab and systemd mount units
14:54:33 <lnykryn> I am not sure, I would rather leave this for backward compability and create a proper stateless solution
14:54:38 <haraldh> fstab is much easier to write :)
14:54:45 <masta> I have to admit, it's been a while since I've played with these kinds of configuration. I'd like to refresh myself on these before deciding anything.
14:55:23 <haraldh> you mean s.th. like http://0pointer.net/blog/projects/stateless.html
14:55:32 <lnykryn> yep
14:55:48 <haraldh> where the rpm packages themselves take care of stateless systems
14:56:12 <haraldh> to get there we would have to add some rpm spec magic first, I think
14:56:21 <haraldh> to populate /usr/share/factory
14:56:45 <haraldh> and create the correct tmpfiles config file
14:57:06 <masta> that sounds like a huge task
14:57:17 <haraldh> and get that to the packaging guidelines
14:57:37 <haraldh> well, we want that in the end anyway, don't we?
14:57:58 <haraldh> "Factory Reset" and stateless systems are just tooo nice to have
14:58:20 <masta> sure, but wrangling the package maintainers to that...
14:58:33 <haraldh> well, one package at a time
14:58:41 <haraldh> we don't have to force anybody
14:58:52 <haraldh> just have the most basic components ready
14:59:01 <masta> yep
14:59:10 <lnykryn> agree. Having that in minimal system would be nice
14:59:26 <haraldh> so, the core of base should be ready
14:59:36 <haraldh> which would be systemd
14:59:44 <haraldh> and probably iSCSI, NFS
14:59:49 <haraldh> and network
15:00:11 <haraldh> and LVM
15:00:16 <haraldh> if we want iSCSI
15:00:58 <haraldh> network config via dhcp in the initramfs
15:01:12 <masta> hrm...
15:01:31 <haraldh> lvm config on the kernel cmdline.. PXE
15:01:35 <haraldh> or dhcp
15:01:40 <haraldh> if needed
15:01:53 <masta> dhcpv6 doesn't really have the capabilities for those nice things
15:02:33 <haraldh> any other autoconf daemons, which download config from the network?
15:03:42 <masta> hum... yeah, I guess some kind of network daemon would be needed
15:04:54 <lnykryn> in minimal setup you can stick with networkd
15:08:32 <haraldh> ok, I'll make a list of components
15:09:13 <haraldh> #topic Open Floor
15:12:20 <masta> I've got nothing
15:12:40 <haraldh> ok, then ... have a nice week then!
15:12:40 <lnykryn> me neither
15:12:45 <masta> thanks for hosting the meeting haraldh, I'm going to wonder away now.
15:12:59 <haraldh> #endmeeting