12:11:50 <vpavlin> #startmeeting Env and Stacks (2015-07-16)
12:11:51 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Jul 16 12:11:50 2015 UTC.  The chair is vpavlin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
12:11:51 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
12:11:57 <langdon_> my znc server is very broken.. so I just got here... but I don't have any particular topics right this minute.. i do think we need to talk about fed-mod stuff soon
12:11:57 <ttomecek> I didn't even know Honza's out
12:12:11 <vpavlin> #meetingname env-and-stacks
12:12:11 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'env-and-stacks'
12:12:22 <vpavlin> #chair bkabrda hhorak juhp ncoghlan vpavlin jkaluza walters ttomecek phracek
12:12:22 <zodbot> Current chairs: bkabrda hhorak jkaluza juhp ncoghlan phracek ttomecek vpavlin walters
12:12:26 <ncoghlan> langdon_, if fed-mod is short for "Fedora Modularisation", then my topic relates to that
12:12:38 <vpavlin> #topic init process
12:13:04 <vpavlin> We don't have hhorak as he is on his vacation, and I don't see phracek
12:13:46 <langdon_> ncoghlan, correct
12:13:54 <vpavlin> So ncoghlan, what is your topic?:-)
12:14:08 * phracek is reading agenda.
12:14:16 <vpavlin> let's make Honza happy and have a nice productive meeting even without him:-)
12:14:35 <vpavlin> phracek: I don't think there is any agenda planned:-)
12:14:39 <ncoghlan> I don't have a pithy name for it yet, but "Developer oriented overview of available deployment tech" is the general idea
12:15:27 <langdon> ncoghlan, uhhh i definitely need elaboration on that one :)
12:15:28 <phracek> ncoghlan: Could you please summarize it? What's going on?
12:15:32 <vpavlin> #topic "Developer oriented overview of available deployment tech" (interim name)
12:16:24 <vpavlin> ncoghlan: Yes..what's this about?:-)
12:16:26 <ncoghlan> so things like Nulecule for containerised apps, xdg-app for desktop apps, and TBD for command line and TUI apps that depend on software collection runtimes
12:16:44 <vpavlin> Ah, right
12:16:49 <ncoghlan> it's basically a documentation project
12:17:14 <ncoghlan> where a developer is wanting to package a particular *kind* of application for Fedora
12:17:31 <vpavlin> #info a documentation project to describe various deployment technologies (Nulecule, xdg-apps, "something" for software collections)
12:18:20 <ncoghlan> yeah, but starting from a "problem to be solved" angle (i.e. what *kind* of application is a developer wanting to deploy?)
12:18:26 <langdon> this might be obvious.. but it is not just the tech(s) available but also a recommendation on which to use for what, right?
12:18:31 <ncoghlan> yeah
12:19:03 <ncoghlan> since the developer knows if they want to deploy a GUI app, network service, or command line/TUI app
12:19:04 <vpavlin> #info matrix of which technology should be used for what *kind* of (Fedora) app
12:19:11 <phracek> ncoghlan: I thought that it is already documented on Package Guidelines.
12:19:29 <ncoghlan> phracek: way less detailed than that
12:19:50 <phracek> ncoghlan: Aha, no. It could be mentioned on PackageGuidelines. For future, I guess.
12:19:52 <ncoghlan> think more of a "this is how this tech can help you solve your deployment problems" kind of guide
12:20:02 <phracek> ncoghlan: ok
12:20:17 <ncoghlan> rather than "this is how you make your package acceptable for inclusion in mainline Fedora"
12:20:38 <ncoghlan> although pointing to the latter is a good idea
12:20:53 <langdon> a nice little flowchart of 1) identify app type 2) identify pkg type 3) pkg 4) deploy to copr 4a) publicize 5) how to promote to playground ... etc might be nice
12:20:59 <vpavlin> phracek: PackagingGuidlines ar pretty hard to digest..we need something more simple for developers *on* Fedora (not *of* Fedora) who don't need to understand all the processes..I guess
12:21:09 <ncoghlan> vpavlin: exactly
12:21:10 <juhp_> apologies for being late
12:21:20 <vpavlin> hello, juhp_
12:21:46 <vpavlin> #info a nice little flowchart of 1) identify app type 2) identify pkg type 3) pkg 4) deploy to copr 4a) publicize 5) how to promote to playground
12:21:53 <ncoghlan> langdon: yeah, that would be the longer term plan, but everything beyond stage 2 is enough flux at the moment that documenting it probably isn't a good ude of time
12:21:57 <phracek> vpavlin: right, This is not directly to Packaging Guidelines.
12:21:58 <juhp_> vpavlin, hi :)
12:22:28 <langdon> .hello langdon
12:22:31 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <langdon@fishjump.com>
12:22:43 <ncoghlan> but we can at least do 1) and 2) so folks are at least getting to the recommended starting point
12:22:51 <phracek> ncoghlan: If it is related to developer then it could be mentioned in developer.fedoraproject.org.
12:23:23 <phracek> Nowadays we have only ruby and python content. But in the future it could / should be mentioned here.
12:23:24 <ncoghlan> phracek: +1
12:23:26 <langdon> ncoghlan, personally, i might put in playground, other rings, etc as placeholders.. and just put "in progress" so that a consumer can sees the long term plan
12:23:57 <ncoghlan> langdon: possibly
12:24:07 <vpavlin> #info Would be great content for developer.fedoraproject.org
12:24:25 <ncoghlan> phracek: is there a public repo for developer.fedoraproject.org content?
12:24:31 <phracek> ncoghlan: Content for such things can be stored here https://github.com/developer-portal/content Feel free to add it.
12:24:34 <phracek> #link https://github.com/developer-portal/content
12:24:48 * Corey84 peeks in
12:24:51 <phracek> Pull requests are welcome.
12:25:13 <phracek> As Docker, Devassistant and other tools would be included here.
12:25:41 <phracek> soon:) Till and of July we would like to have a first web version based on Jekyll.
12:26:15 <phracek> E&S team will be definitely informed.
12:26:35 <phracek> ncoghlan: Format is based on Markdown structure
12:27:28 <langdon__> phracek, is the git repo being deployed anywhere yet?
12:27:40 <ncoghlan> phracek: I filed https://github.com/developer-portal/content/issues/1 if you'd like to add me as a dev and assign it to me :)
12:27:56 <vpavlin> ncoghlan: Might be good to start with the creation of content directly on github, instead of starting somewhere on the Fedora Wiki and then moving over to GH and MArkdown
12:28:13 <ncoghlan> vpavlin: yep, I agree
12:28:30 <Corey84> +1 starting on gh
12:28:33 <phracek> langdon: Not yet:(
12:28:40 <ncoghlan> is the developer portal an official Env & Stacks project yet?
12:28:40 <phracek> ncoghlan: +1 and thanks
12:28:52 <ncoghlan> if not, we should probably fix that...
12:29:04 <vpavlin> ncoghlan, langdon: How do you envision the presention of this information?
12:29:14 <vpavlin> I mean of the "matrix"
12:29:18 <phracek> Today we had a meeting with rvokal and decided to have a first web develoiepr.fp.org till and of July.
12:29:30 <ncoghlan> vpavlin: I'll try a simple two column table first
12:29:45 <langdon> vpavlin, i like things like this: https://www.drupal.org/start
12:29:47 <phracek> It is going to be announced soon. But capacities are the problem.
12:30:06 <vpavlin> #info developer.fedoraproject.org to have first version up till the end of July
12:30:16 <phracek> ncoghlan: No. It was my idea during RedHack week in Brno.
12:30:17 <langdon> phracek, would it be worth just setting it up as a github website in the near term?
12:30:18 <vpavlin> langdon: neat:)
12:30:34 <phracek> Fedora missed a portal like developer.ubuntu.com
12:30:42 * langdon knows his md is bad enough he needs to see it :)
12:31:09 <ttomecek> I think we should totally focus on developer experience
12:31:36 <langdon> ttomecek, +1
12:31:54 <ttomecek> that's what I hear from a lot of friends b/c their prefer ubuntu over fedora b/c it's more easier to use
12:31:58 <phracek> langdon: one repo is for content and second repo is for web site like CSS and whatever you want.
12:32:03 <ttomecek> they*
12:32:26 <vpavlin> #info first pass could be a simple 2 column table, later maybe something like https://www.drupal.org/start
12:32:29 <phracek> ttomecek: +1. We need to focus on developer and advise them.
12:33:06 <vpavlin> ncoghlan: Any details you want to discuss about this?
12:33:08 <phracek> or like this https://phracek.fedorapeople.org/landing_page.png
12:33:24 <phracek> and of course atomic is missing there:)
12:33:26 <ncoghlan> vpavlin: I've added the developer portal to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Env_and_Stacks/Tasklist#Tasklist
12:33:45 <vpavlin> this = technology which should be there, kinds of applications we shouldn't miss..
12:33:45 <phracek> ncoghlan: assigned it to me.:_
12:33:48 <phracek> :)
12:33:57 <phracek> czech keyboard grr.
12:35:05 <ncoghlan> phracek: I'm going to see if I can get some of our tech writers interested
12:35:38 <vpavlin> ncoghlan: \o/
12:35:43 <phracek> ncoghlan: Issues are not created yet but soon. Hopefully and of this / next week.
12:38:35 <ncoghlan> one other note - subdomain should be developers.fedoraproject.org, other anyone switching back and forth between the Fedora one and the developers.redhat.com one will not be pleased with us :)
12:38:45 <ncoghlan> *otherwise
12:39:10 <langdon> ncoghlan, with redirects from developer and dev if possible
12:39:26 <ncoghlan> langdon: good idea
12:39:32 <vpavlin> So, should we change topic to developer portal? And discuss it more?
12:39:36 <ttomecek> someone should put that ^ to a design doc
12:39:41 <phracek> ncoghlan: Main reference is going to be from getfedora.org.
12:39:47 <phracek> hopefully.
12:39:54 <phracek> vpavlin: +1
12:39:55 <vpavlin> I guess we have the broad idea of the overview ncoghlan would like to see for deployment tech:)
12:40:47 <langdon> i read a study (somewhere) that said many developers just type in "developer(s).whatever-main-site-name" as a starting point
12:41:12 <vpavlin> #topic Developer Site for Fedora Project
12:41:42 <vpavlin> #info Project started by phracek and jstribny - https://github.com/developer-portal/content
12:42:03 <vpavlin> #info Added to Tasklist - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Env_and_Stacks/Tasklist#Tasklist
12:42:21 <vpavlin> #info First version to be up till the end of July
12:42:38 <phracek> vpavlin: right. http://red-hack-week.usersys.redhat.com/rhws/2015/
12:42:48 <vpavlin> #info Should be accessible through developer.fp.org, developers.fp.org, dev.fp.org
12:42:57 <ncoghlan> and there's now a placeholder at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Env_and_Stacks/Projects/DeveloperPortal
12:43:10 <vpavlin> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Env_and_Stacks/Projects/DeveloperPortal
12:43:14 <vpavlin> ncoghlan: Thanks!
12:43:39 <phracek> Main page written by asamalik https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Developer
12:43:43 <phracek> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Developer
12:44:15 <phracek> vpavlin: I guess pages should be s/fp.org/fedoraproject.org/. Just for sure.
12:44:33 <ncoghlan> if we haven't already, we should get in touch with the designers for getfedora.org
12:44:40 <vpavlin> phracek: yeah, I am just being lazy:-)
12:44:53 <phracek> vpavlin: sorry:)
12:45:12 <vpavlin> phracek: Have you or anybody else talked to Fedora designer?
12:45:13 <vpavlin> s
12:45:20 <vpavlin> designers:-)
12:45:37 <phracek> vpavlin: Yeah we alrady have a UX designer.
12:45:40 <phracek> Mmnt
12:45:51 * vpavlin is just bumping up his stats from this meeting by this (un)intentional typos..
12:46:39 <phracek> she is ...
12:47:28 <phracek> Grrr, I could remember her name:(
12:47:39 <phracek> Begins on M.
12:47:59 <ncoghlan> Mairin?
12:48:06 <phracek> ncoghlan: +1. Yeah
12:48:12 <ncoghlan> ah, cool
12:49:41 <ncoghlan> looking at the Marketing deadlines for F23, they mostly seem to be in early October
12:50:00 <juhp_> ah
12:50:02 <vpavlin> ncoghlan: What is her irc nick?
12:50:07 <ncoghlan> while the beta ones are mid-September
12:50:18 <juhp_> mizmo,
12:50:36 <phracek> ncoghlan: It seems to be realistic. Hopefully.
12:50:57 <ncoghlan> yeah, I'll add to the project page that:
12:50:57 <vpavlin> #info mizmo was contacted about Fedora Developer Portal
12:51:10 <ncoghlan> 1. we'd like to have an initial version up by end of July
12:51:33 <ncoghlan> 2. we'd like to mention it in the F23 beta announcements in September
12:52:25 <langdon> just a thought.. has anyone reached out to workstation wg? as their target audience is supposed to be developers
12:53:24 <vpavlin> langdon: from the silence...no?:-)
12:53:38 <vpavlin> ncoghlan: Looks good to me
12:54:29 <phracek> ncoghlan: At the end of July we would like to have a Openshift instance with developer portal.
12:54:56 <phracek> ncoghlan: afterwards we will discuss how it should look like with UX team. Especially with mizmo .
12:55:14 <ncoghlan> phracek: we should probably put together a self-container change proposal for this
12:55:22 <ncoghlan> self-contained, even
12:55:27 <juhp_> langdon, I am on the WS WG
12:55:31 * ncoghlan apparently can't type today
12:56:02 <phracek> ncoghlan: sorry for disturbing you but why? It is not a package or system-wide change it is a documentation.
12:56:26 <vpavlin> ncoghlan: I guess we could get into cool-kids club and do even a container:-P
12:56:29 <phracek> ncoghlan: It documentation is part of self-contained then yes. But I guess no.
12:56:34 <ncoghlan> phracek: for the coordination with the release announcements
12:56:57 <phracek> ncoghlan: But it is not fixed with F23 GA.
12:57:05 <vpavlin> phracek: I'd say - why not? It would get more attention at least:-)
12:57:41 <vpavlin> Ok, 2 minutes to go...
12:57:46 <phracek> vpavlin: Of course, it is going to be announced. But not fixed with F23 GA, I though.
12:58:15 <Corey84> announced in 23  tied to 24 ? then
12:58:26 <phracek> Corey84: Sounds good.
12:58:47 <Corey84> I'll take a look closer at the gh  page later today
12:59:05 <vpavlin> #info developer.fedoraproject.org to be announced with F23, tied to F24
12:59:07 <langdon> juhp_, can you bring up this project (the dev.fp.o) at your next meeting and ask for help?
12:59:12 <Corey84> as i use devassistant a decent amoutn likely where " i " start
12:59:24 <juhp_> langdon, okay will try to do that yes
12:59:36 <Corey84> I can mention at tonight's  FAMNA too
12:59:42 <vpavlin> #info juhp_ to bring this topic up on Workstation WG meeting
12:59:46 <phracek> Corey84: DevAssistant issue is here https://github.com/developer-portal/content/issues/4
12:59:50 <ncoghlan> reviewing https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Policy, the other benefit of the self-contained change path is getting FESCo's sign-off on the idea
12:59:51 * langdon will try to be sure to attend the next meeting to help.. but his calendar *hates* it
13:00:01 <juhp_> langdon, cool
13:00:29 <ncoghlan> I'll add that to the project page, and make myself the owner for getting that done
13:00:43 <Corey84> very nice and good start  (fesco)
13:00:47 <juhp_> that reminds me we talked about a joint meeting with Base WG?
13:00:52 <ncoghlan> (I'll wait until after the demo is up, though)
13:00:53 <vpavlin> #info we should do a self-contained change for Developer Portal to get a FESCo's sign-off on the idea
13:01:12 <vpavlin> I need to go
13:01:27 <vpavlin> #topic open floor
13:01:38 <vpavlin> Anything really quick here?
13:01:47 <Corey84> nothing here
13:02:23 <vpavlin> juhp_: I am not aware of any plans for that meeting. (But I am not a very good member:) )
13:03:04 <vpavlin> Ok, seems like we are done..THanks everybody!
13:03:09 <vpavlin> #endmeeting