12:01:04 <hhorak> #startmeeting Env and Stacks (2015-09-10)
12:01:04 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Sep 10 12:01:04 2015 UTC.  The chair is hhorak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
12:01:04 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
12:01:07 <hhorak> #meetingname env-and-stacks
12:01:07 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'env-and-stacks'
12:01:11 <hhorak> #chair bkabrda hhorak juhp ncoghlan vpavlin jkaluza walters ttomecek phracek
12:01:11 <zodbot> Current chairs: bkabrda hhorak jkaluza juhp ncoghlan phracek ttomecek vpavlin walters
12:01:15 <hhorak> Hello!
12:01:20 <vpavlin> :-)
12:01:29 <phracek> hi
12:02:13 <jkaluza> hi
12:04:47 <hhorak> #topic Developer portal -- whatever is needed for finalizing
12:04:57 <hhorak> phracek and others, good work!
12:05:14 <hhorak> anything we need to help with to be able to launch it somehow?
12:05:59 <phracek> I am going to leave for 20 minutes.
12:06:02 <phracek> sorry
12:06:40 <jkaluza> I plan to check the content for the languages I know in the train today
12:06:44 <jkaluza> just fyi :)
12:06:47 <vpavlin> hhorak: We should probably get a replacement for phracek for the discussion..
12:06:52 * vpavlin is pinging asamalk
12:08:29 * ttomecek is still waiting to get some stuff merged to Fedora-Dockerfiles in order to have functional content :/
12:08:34 <asamalik> hi
12:09:09 <vpavlin> asamalik: (02:05:15 PM) hhorak: anything we need to help with to be able to launch it somehow?
12:09:30 <hhorak> #info ttomecek is still waiting to get some stuff merged to Fedora-Dockerfiles
12:09:40 <asamalik> currently we have a testing instance in fedora cloud: http://developer.fedorainfracloud.org/
12:10:01 <asamalik> more info also here: https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/4876
12:10:11 <hhorak> #link http://developer.fedorainfracloud.org/
12:10:12 <asamalik> to deploy it into production, we need to package about 20 ruby packages
12:10:19 <hhorak> #link https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/4876
12:10:33 <ttomecek> asamalik, how often will you redeploy new content?
12:10:56 <ttomecek> asamalik, who is going to package those? why didn't you use something which is already packaged in fedora?
12:11:29 <hhorak> #info work still to be done: packaging ruby packages (about 20)
12:11:56 <hhorak> asamalik: is it like a real blocker, if that is just for generating the content?
12:13:15 <asamalik> ttomecek, it might be once a week i guess, depends on the changes
12:14:28 <asamalik> ttomecek, we can deploy only static HTML and we do not need to package anything for this. However, as kevin [in the ticket] got an idea about generating it in some backend automatically - and that would need these packages
12:15:02 <asamalik> hhorak, it is not a real blocker, it would just not be as automated as it could be
12:15:10 <jstribny> hhorak: no, we dont need jekyll there
12:15:31 <jstribny> hhorak, we just deploy html, css + one ruby script that have deps packaged
12:16:47 <jstribny> ttomecek, new content should be deploy as necessary, so we can deploy fixes regulary and then content regarding new fedoras every fedora release
12:18:54 <hhorak> so it looks like nothing really blocks you to deploy it right now, that looks great!
12:19:01 <jstribny> hhorak, so for a production release we don't need to package anything.....it would be just a 'nice to have' for future
12:19:22 <ttomecek> do you also plan to integrate some social stuff? e.g. disquis, or maybe some integration to "fedora ask"
12:19:24 <jstribny> hhorak, only blocker is missing content and english review
12:19:45 <jstribny> ttomecek, i would prefer to avoid it, although it's possible
12:20:01 <hhorak> jstribny: do you still miss some content without which you don't want to deploy it to production?
12:20:17 * vpavlin likes the fedora ask idea:-)
12:20:32 <jstribny> hhorak, we track it here: https://github.com/developer-portal/content/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22first+release%22
12:20:46 <hhorak> there should be some link to fedora ask, but do we need anything more there?
12:20:50 <asamalik> hhorak, docker, devassistant, python
12:21:11 <jstribny> hhorak, vpavlin yes i would like a link, but I don't want to directly load a content there
12:21:40 <hhorak> jstribny: me neither :)
12:22:09 <asamalik> hhorak, and at least a basic guide about openshift - these four are the most important from the missing
12:22:27 <vpavlin> jstribny: yep, I agree, but linking to some categories matching the topic on Developer portal, like python, ruby, vagrant..would be nice:)
12:22:43 <hhorak> #info content that is still missing to be able to deploy the developer portal: docker, devassistant, python, a basic guide for openshift
12:23:26 <hhorak> vpavlin: that sounds like something usable to me
12:23:34 <asamalik> vpavlin, for example link from Python content could point to ask with python tag?
12:23:56 <vpavlin> asamalik: yes
12:24:07 <jstribny> vpavlin, yes, good idea, there could be a ask.fedora button with the link to the right category/label....or do we want something more?
12:24:14 <hhorak> #idea to have linking to some categories on fedora ask matching the topic on Developer portal, like python, ruby, vagrant.. for example link from Python content could point to ask with python tag
12:24:35 <hhorak> jstribny: I'd rather see set of tags, sometimes not only one tag is relevant ...
12:24:39 <ncoghlan> we may also want a beta tag on the site while there are still placeholder sections
12:24:58 <ncoghlan> (e.g. the docs and collaboration links from getting started)
12:25:04 <hhorak> but it may be also one button that goes to more tags..
12:25:05 <phracek> I am back:) Sorry;)
12:25:17 <jstribny> ncoghlan, there should not be part of the release at all then
12:25:35 <asamalik> ncoghlan, we have excluded the whole start section from the first release
12:25:44 <ncoghlan> jstribny: oh, that makes sense then
12:26:00 <ncoghlan> (sorry, I was late and missed the start of the meeting)
12:26:04 <jstribny> hhorak, or something like a logo at the bottom of the page and next to it links to relevant tags....could be nice
12:27:41 * phracek is reading conversation
12:27:45 <asamalik> BTW ask.fedoraproject.org would deserve some fedora branding - it was not quite clear to me what is this page about at the first look
12:28:12 <jstribny> hhorak, vpavlin, asamalik I created a relevant issue: https://github.com/developer-portal/content/issues/65
12:28:35 <jstribny> but it's not a blocker for first release i guess
12:28:51 <asamalik> jstribny, agree
12:29:08 <vpavlin> jstribny: cool:-)
12:29:50 <phracek> I would like to have a link to developer portal also from getfedora.org. What do you think about it?
12:30:14 <jstribny> phracek, i am definitely for it....at least from /workstation page
12:30:48 <hhorak> phracek: yes!
12:30:51 <asamalik> phracek, or even the small fedora logo at the right-bottom on some fedora pages
12:31:03 <asamalik> phracek, I mean, in that menu :)
12:31:17 <asamalik> it's on the askbot as well
12:31:31 <hhorak> well, times going pretty quick, let's finish with this topic and move on to next... any last comments about developer portal?
12:31:53 <phracek> I would like to see it in menu SUPPORT or JOIN at the end.
12:32:02 <phracek> hhorak: yes.
12:32:36 <hhorak> phracek: yes for moving or yes for some more comments?
12:32:37 <phracek> go ahead to next topic.
12:32:58 <hhorak> #info developer portal should have some link at getfedora.org
12:33:39 <hhorak> #topic RepoFunnel and the Software Component Pipeline -- any feedback
12:33:55 <hhorak> ncoghlan: thanks for the proposal, good work!
12:34:15 <hhorak> but what I miss is some feedback, so let's take a look at it all (if not done yet)
12:35:07 <vpavlin> ncoghlan: Is repofunnel in state where I can try it?
12:35:13 <hhorak> since we need to start exploring some technologies that we can use asap... so we have the building blocks and have overview what is already working/existing/missing totally..
12:35:24 <jstribny> hhorak, still dont know what repofunnel is...was promised a presentation, but was given no explanation
12:35:25 <vpavlin> (I haven't attempted to do that, just went through the code to understand it)
12:35:48 <ncoghlan> vpavlin: it will run, but doesn't do anything interesting yet
12:35:59 <ncoghlan> adding a "link repos" page is next on the todo list
12:36:05 <hhorak> ncoghlan: can you share a link, please?
12:36:12 <vpavlin> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Env_and_Stacks/Projects/SoftwareComponentPipeline
12:36:25 <ncoghlan> #link https://github.com/ncoghlan/repofunnel
12:36:32 <vpavlin> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Env_and_Stacks/Projects/SoftwareComponentPipeline
12:36:52 <ncoghlan> (Just noting: I'm in a BlueeJeans meeting as well now...)
12:38:00 <hhorak> ncoghlan: thanks!
12:38:45 <hhorak> #action everybody look more closely to the SoftwareComponentPipeline proposal and let's provide feedback/additional questions on ML
12:38:58 <jkaluza> +1 :)
12:39:37 <hhorak> #topic User level package management -- looking for AI
12:40:03 <hhorak> I think we can create pretty much the same action item here as well :)
12:40:21 <vpavlin> Artificial Inteligence?
12:40:31 <vpavlin> ah..action items..damn it..
12:40:42 <hhorak> vpavlin: UFO!
12:40:46 <ttomecek> rolekit?
12:41:09 <vpavlin> ttomecek: ?
12:41:17 <hhorak> #link https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/env-and-stacks/2015-August/000884.html
12:41:31 <hhorak> ttomecek: rolekit is not user level, since it is based on rpm
12:41:51 <hhorak> well, unless somebody makes rpm to be installable on user-level
12:42:11 <ncoghlan> my perspective on that changed a lot through Flock and preceding discussions
12:42:36 <ncoghlan> I'm now more of a fan of *enabling* it better (e.g. by better upstream tracking)
12:43:20 <ncoghlan> but trusting devs building *on* Fedora to make up their own minds about whether or not to consume upstream package repos directly
12:44:14 <ttomecek> aha, I read only AI, sorry, missed "user package management"; am already too tired
12:45:10 <vpavlin> ncoghlan: confusing..so no user level pkg management and we are back to only RPM, or you mean to use upstream pypi?
12:45:35 <ncoghlan> vpavlin: it's in the Software Component Pipeline doc
12:45:46 <hhorak> #info the perspective on that changed recently, ncoghlan more focusing on *enabling* it better; trusting devs building *on* Fedora to make up their own minds about whether or not to consume upstream package repos directly
12:46:09 <ncoghlan> for *distro* components, focus on automating the upstream -> SRPM pipeline and removing any manual steps
12:46:44 <ncoghlan> for *custom* apps running *on* Fedora/RHEL/CentOS, provide the tools, provide repo hosting support in Pulp
12:47:08 <ncoghlan> but don't try to inject ourselves into the package review process
12:47:25 <ncoghlan> at least initially, anyway
12:47:26 <hhorak> ncoghlan: repo with gems/pypi you mean?
12:47:28 <vpavlin> ok, makes sense, thanks for clarification
12:47:30 <ncoghlan> yeah
12:48:03 <hhorak> #info for *distro* components, focus on automating the upstream -> SRPM pipeline and removing any manual steps ; for *custom* apps running *on* Fedora/RHEL/CentOS, provide the tools, provide repo hosting support in Pulp, but don't try to inject ourselves into the package review process
12:50:25 <vpavlin> ncoghlan: Was there any communication with Pulp project about providing more plugins for various langugage specific packaging?
12:50:40 <vpavlin> I know about python..anything else planned/under development?
12:51:33 <hhorak> vpavlin: vjancik was talking to ncoghlan about some proof of concept for nodejs... not started yet afaict, but he's quite active and should be able to look at it soon.
12:51:54 <ncoghlan> hhorak: thanks, the name had escaped me
12:52:09 <vpavlin> hhorak: Ok, cool
12:53:34 <hhorak> anyway, some relevant reading..
12:53:35 <hhorak> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Mizdebsk/FedoraMavenRepository
12:54:09 <hhorak> explanation why a similar idea doesn't have much sense in java ^
12:55:20 <ncoghlan> hhorak: aye, it was the fact that only some language ecosystems support redistribution that persuaded me we're better off assuming "direct from upstream " for devs
12:55:46 <ncoghlan> and then make filtering with something like pinrepo or Pulp an available *option*
12:56:18 <ncoghlan> or language specific tools like devpi for Python and Nexus for Maven
12:58:04 <hhorak> ncoghlan: the devpi pilot you worked on with bkabrda -- is it still going then?
12:58:15 <ncoghlan> hhorak: no, we halted that
12:58:27 <ncoghlan> hhorak: we don't want to run Fedora specific repos any more
12:59:12 <hhorak> ncoghlan: but it could be used just for filtering, do I understand it correctly?
13:00:08 <hhorak> anyway, one specific idea -- since we focus on specific languages use cases here except other general tools, we should have some feedback from fedora developers, that work with those languages..
13:00:17 <hhorak> ideally more of them and get some feedback early in the process for any ideas we'll work with..
13:00:34 <hhorak> I guess asking directly on fedora devel/user list might help finding such people that would form some kind of a virtual team (primarily just for providing feedback, but further collaboration would be even better)... just to be able to work with them more closely...
13:01:10 <ncoghlan> hhorak: that's in the pipeline proposal - I'd like us to push that to the language SIGs
13:01:30 <ncoghlan> and say "you're responsible for maintaining the developer experience for your language in Fedora"
13:02:06 <ncoghlan> while E&S focuses on language independent things like Docker, COPR, RepoFunnel, etc
13:02:33 <hhorak> what I meant was more having also some non-SIG people involved (becoming part of SIG), who don't have experiences with packaging rpms.. so we get also some pure-user feedback..
13:03:05 <ncoghlan> that list actually includes me :)
13:03:21 * ncoghlan doesn't really know how to build RPMs properly
13:03:26 <hhorak> ncoghlan: great! we just need more nick!
13:03:30 <ncoghlan> hehe
13:03:43 <hhorak> ok, times up already, any last thoughts?
13:04:18 <hhorak> #topic Open floor?
13:04:42 <vpavlin> Nope:-)
13:05:00 <hhorak> ending in 1 minute..
13:11:10 <hhorak> #endmeeting