15:04:17 <nirik> #startmeeting Server Working Group Weekly Meeting (2016-08-09)
15:04:17 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Aug  9 15:04:17 2016 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:04:17 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:04:17 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'server_working_group_weekly_meeting_(2016-08-09)'
15:04:23 <nirik> #chair danofsatx nirik stefw adamw simi mhayden jds2001 mjwolf hanthana
15:04:23 <zodbot> Current chairs: adamw danofsatx hanthana jds2001 mhayden mjwolf nirik simi stefw
15:04:28 <nirik> #topic Agenda
15:04:39 <sgallagh> nirik: "simi" is still misspelled.
15:04:45 <nirik> sgallagh: oops.
15:04:51 <nirik> I just grabbed this from the last meeting
15:05:02 <rric> Hi, here is Robert Richter from Cavium
15:05:21 <adamw> morning
15:05:25 <cov> Christopher Covington from Qualcomm
15:05:29 <cov> hi all
15:05:39 <sgallagh> .hello sgallagh
15:05:40 <zodbot> sgallagh: sgallagh 'Stephen Gallagher' <sgallagh@redhat.com>
15:06:14 <bconoboy> .hello blc
15:06:15 <zodbot> bconoboy: blc 'Brendan Conoboy' <blc@redhat.com>
15:06:37 <nirik> hello everyone.
15:07:00 <nirik> I thought we might use todays meeting to go over discussions at flock and roadmap and such
15:07:49 <sgallagh> cov, rric: Nice to meet you!
15:07:51 <bconoboy> nirik: sounds good.  Jon Stanley can't be the only one looking for info
15:07:59 <rric> hi, all
15:08:13 <rric> my first time on the meeting her
15:08:16 <rric> here
15:09:47 <nirik> #topic Flock discussions / Roadmap for f26 and beyond
15:10:10 <nirik> So, there's been some email on list this morning going over things.
15:10:14 <nirik> welcome mjwolf
15:10:26 <mjwolf> hello nirik
15:10:51 <nirik> We had some great discussions and input from folks at flock...
15:12:10 <nirik> My take away from that was that we would look at seeing if we could use rolekit's interface/frontend, but replace it's backend with ansible and make roles ansible playbooks. No one from rolekit was there, so we don't know how feasable this might be.
15:12:25 <nirik> and then also work with modularity folks to move to modules.
15:12:44 <nirik> this would all be f26 and beyond, as f25 is already in alpha freeze
15:13:26 <mjwolf> there was also discussion on whether an "undo" would be needed
15:13:35 <mjwolf> rolekit currently supports that
15:13:40 <sgallagh> nirik: I assume you're talking about the Pow Wow?
15:13:41 <langdon> .hello langdon
15:13:42 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <langdon@fishjump.com>
15:13:47 <nirik> sgallagh: yeah.
15:13:52 * langdon sorta lurks, also running modularity wg meeting
15:14:10 <nirik> sgallagh: perhaps you could chime in from a rolekit perspective. is that at all feasable to replace backend?
15:14:22 <mjwolf> there was also discussion about name-spacing galaxy playbooks for ansible
15:14:52 <sgallagh> nirik: It *might* be, but given that the usage of it is minimal today, I'd think it would be nice-to-have rather than need-to-have.
15:14:53 <nirik> I think thats further down the road, but yeah, something to look into
15:15:22 <sgallagh> To the best of my knowledge, nothing is consuming the rolekit API outside of the rolectl CLI to date.
15:15:28 <nirik> sgallagh: well, the thought is that if we can reuse it's interface, we don't have to change cockpit or break existing server users, or define a new interface.
15:15:39 <nirik> isn't cockpit?
15:15:42 <sgallagh> There's nothing stopping us from hacking up the CLI to wrap a new solution, of course.
15:16:02 <sgallagh> nirik: No, Cockpit never got around to it. Resource contention.
15:16:08 <nirik> ahh...
15:16:27 <sgallagh> And when we set rolekit aside, I told them to take it off their priority list until and unless we restarted it
15:16:36 <nirik> openqa is using it for tests... but adamw loves re-writing those. ;)
15:16:54 <sgallagh> adamw: Are you using the D-BUS API or just the CLI?
15:17:06 <sgallagh> Wrapping the CLI wouldn't be particularly hard, I suppose.
15:17:24 <sgallagh> Particularly if we constrained it to just the stuff OpenQA is using for the time being.
15:17:57 * nirik is happy to do whatever works best, we just thought it might be good to re-use the existing interface if it was easy
15:18:52 <hanthana_> .hello snavin
15:18:53 <zodbot> hanthana_: snavin 'Danishka Navin' <danishka@gmail.com>
15:19:16 <sgallagh> Unless something compelling is using it, I'd scrap it and do it better this time around
15:19:22 <nirik> of course the question here is always who is going to do the work. ;) I can commit to working on the ansible playbook side of things, but beyond that I am pretty swamped.
15:20:02 <sgallagh> I think we're getting a little too far into implementation before we decide if that's the route we want to go :)
15:20:50 <nirik> sure.
15:20:54 <bconoboy> probably more productive thinking about where you want to go first...
15:21:20 <bconoboy> beyond ansible integration there was a lot of interest in modularity
15:21:46 <bconoboy> There's an unfortunate scheduling problem in that the serverwg meeting happens at the same time as the modularitywg
15:22:31 <bconoboy> that'll need to be sorted out if there is going to be cooperation between the wgs
15:23:47 * bconoboy hoping somebody else will run with this topic
15:23:56 <nirik> we can adjust our meeting time, sure...
15:24:36 <nirik> I think modularity will get us a lot of things people have been asking for: different lifecycles, being able to switch versions of stacks easily, less dependencies/footprint, etc
15:24:57 <bconoboy> anyway, the modularity wg would like to have the server edition be the first instance of a modularized OS.  maybe a PoC version in f25, delivering an actual release with f26
15:25:18 <sgallagh> bconoboy: Well, F25 is three months away.
15:25:21 <sgallagh> That seems... ambitious.
15:25:28 <adamw> sgallagh: openqa test uses the cli
15:25:29 <nirik> and we just froze for alpha today
15:25:31 <sgallagh> I think a realistic goal would be F26
15:25:36 <bconoboy> they are nothing if not ambitious ;-)  a PoC wouldn't be an official build.
15:25:37 <adamw> sorry, got a few different things happening.
15:26:19 <bconoboy> Anyway, sorting out what a PoC even means will be interesting... and the entire enterprise is a cool direction to take the serverwg
15:26:25 <adamw> sgallagh: https://bitbucket.org/rajcze/openqa_fedora/src/6fdc9934d41ff4b00cdf165f2502ea3c82c67e88/tests/role_deploy_domain_controller.pm?at=develop&fileviewer=file-view-default shows you everything it does.
15:26:31 <sgallagh> adamw: RE: openqa, I'd either hand you a wrapper or modify the test for you. Whichever ends up being less work.
15:26:39 <adamw> fine by me.
15:26:57 <adamw> well, we'd rather edit the test, i think, because the point of the test is to make sure the intended interface for rolekit works...
15:27:10 <adamw> anyhow.
15:27:18 <sgallagh> true enough
15:28:00 <sgallagh> bconoboy: No, but I think we should probably look at working in Rawhide for now.
15:28:10 <sgallagh> That way we don't cause any side-effects that would impact F25
15:29:15 <bconoboy> sgallagh: wfm
15:30:05 <sgallagh> I still think we're jumping ahead a bit though.
15:30:33 <sgallagh> I'm going to try in the next few days to work on putting the Logic Model we worked out at the PRD session into a pretty graphical display so we can discuss and adjust it.
15:30:48 <sgallagh> Then we can use that to direct our decision-making.
15:30:51 <nirik> yeah, we need to go over the PRD....
15:30:59 <nirik> I haven't had time to really look at that.
15:32:21 <sgallagh> I don't think much of the content will ultimately change, but I think we'll have a better description of how we got to each of the goals.
15:33:07 <bconoboy> For those who weren't there for the PRD session and logic model:
15:33:32 <bconoboy> mattdm presented the kellogg logic model at his star trek talk.  Pointer to the model: https://www.wkkf.org/resource-directory/resource/2006/02/wk-kellogg-foundation-logic-model-development-guide
15:34:00 <bconoboy> A very succinct image showing the model:
15:34:04 <bconoboy> http://toolkit.pellinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Reading-a-Logic-Model.png
15:34:13 <bconoboy> You plan from right to left, execute from left to right
15:34:17 <sgallagh> The short version is that it planning should happen from long-term vision down to implementation details, while work should go the other way.
15:34:30 <sgallagh> bconoboy put it more elegantly
15:34:41 <bconoboy> "You plan from right to left, execute from left to right" - mattdm
15:34:50 <bconoboy> I totally stole that from mattdm :-)
15:35:11 <bconoboy> Anyway, at the PRD session on Friday there was an effort to use this model for the server wg
15:35:38 <bconoboy> We got through impact, outcomes, and some of the outputs- but did not cover activities or resources/inputs
15:36:13 <bconoboy> There is a link to this work here: https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/63
15:36:49 <sgallagh> Right, and not covering activities and resources was a deliberate choice (left for the WG)
15:37:07 <sgallagh> The version in that ticket is in text and not very easy to follow.
15:37:14 <sgallagh> As I said, I'll try to figure out a better way to present it
15:37:43 <nirik> cool
15:38:10 <bconoboy> it really is helpful to have it in the diagram form with the arrows
15:39:09 * nirik pulls the pdf to read when time permits
15:39:10 <sgallagh> bconoboy: I think I could make something functional without arrows just by using Trello/Taiga
15:39:30 <sgallagh> I may do that today as a short-term fix
15:39:49 <bconoboy> that'd be great
15:41:46 <sgallagh> OK, I'll see what I can do and I'll post it to the list when it's ready
15:42:11 <nirik> cool. Thanks sgallagh
15:42:25 <nirik> so I guess thats our next step? PRD rework/discussion and then from that a roadmap ?
15:43:08 <bconoboy> The thing that wasn't clear to me is if the PRD as discussed there is in some way "final" or if it was an exercise for the serverwg as a whole, some of who were not present
15:43:37 <sgallagh> We should probably also do a check-in to see who is still interested in being on the WG
15:43:47 <sgallagh> I know we have at least one open seat: Simo's
15:43:56 <nirik> #info sgallagh to work on a PRD draft/kellog model for server this week
15:44:07 <nirik> #info should check who is still interested in being a part of the group
15:44:10 <sgallagh> bconoboy: That was meant to seed the discussion and focus it, but ultimately the WG has to approve it.
15:44:21 <sgallagh> Particularly since I don't think a single sitting WG member was present at the time...
15:44:37 <bconoboy> sgallagh: OK, so it sounds like it was a trial run.  that's great- it would be nice to have the full WG contribute
15:44:37 <nirik> yeah, it needs approval/input from the working group
15:44:42 <sgallagh> I mostly ask about membership because if we move into a closer alignment with modularity, we may want to cross-pollinate...
15:45:27 * nirik nods.
15:47:30 <adamw> i don't think i want to be cross-pollinated. it sounds painful.
15:47:42 <nirik> heh
15:47:55 <nirik> ok, anything further today? Or shall we call it a meeting and continue on the list?
15:48:26 <bconoboy> what was the plan for the meeting time?
15:48:49 <nirik> I can send out a whenisgood, but then we need to know who all is involved first?
15:49:22 <bconoboy> ah, so maybe wg membership, then meeting time?
15:49:25 <hanthana_> guys, I was suppose to write a blogpost but could not find  a time as I was really busy. I will be working  on it.
15:50:00 <nirik> bconoboy: yeah, thats my thought...
15:51:06 <bconoboy> sounds good- some modularity team members might want to join in
15:52:38 <bconoboy> so... what was the membership plan? :-)
15:53:17 <nirik> I can send an email and ask folks to express their continued interest or not? we see who we have left and how many open seats to fill...
15:53:31 <sgallagh> nirik: That would probably be best.
15:53:47 <sgallagh> Send to the list and CC all the sitting members?
15:54:03 <nirik> say hold it open for a week then check next meeting? or more time better?
15:55:34 <sgallagh> Let's give two weeks for people to respond with yay or nay. If only because it's vacation season
15:55:47 <nirik> yeah.
15:56:07 <nirik> #info check existing members for continued interest on list over next 2 weeks.
15:57:12 <nirik> sounds good. Anything else?
15:57:14 <nirik> #topic Open floor
15:59:03 <nirik> ok then, will close out the meeting in a minute if nothing more.
15:59:51 <nirik> Thanks for coming everyone!
15:59:54 <nirik> #endmeeting