14:00:48 <potty> #startmeeting famsco
14:00:48 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Sep 14 14:00:48 2016 UTC.  The chair is potty. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:00:48 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:00:48 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famsco'
14:01:13 <potty> ping mailga cwickert lbazan tuanta gnokii giannisk
14:01:18 <potty> #topic Roll Call
14:01:21 <giannisk> .fas giannisk
14:01:22 <potty> .hello potty
14:01:22 <zodbot> giannisk: giannisk 'Giannis Konstantinidis' <giannis@konstantinidis.cc>
14:01:24 <zodbot> potty: potty 'Abdel G. Martínez L.' <abdel.g.martinez.l@gmail.com>
14:01:24 <mailga> here I am
14:02:23 <gnokii> .fas gnokii
14:02:23 <zodbot> gnokii: gnokii 'Sirko Kemter' <buergermeister@karl-tux-stadt.de>
14:02:47 <mailga> gnokii: ban removed?
14:03:07 <gnokii> mailga: does not matter right now
14:05:19 <potty> any news from cwickert, lbazan tuanta?
14:06:12 <potty> #info Attendance 4/7
14:06:16 <mailga> tuanta sent regrets in ML.
14:06:29 <potty> mailga: ok
14:06:45 <potty> then let's talk about the FOSCo topic
14:06:53 <potty> which from my POV is our main priority
14:07:17 <potty> #topic Proposal: consider tranforming FAmSCo into "FOSCo" — Fedora Outreach Steering Committee
14:07:23 <potty> .fasmco 373
14:07:31 <potty> .famsco 373
14:07:31 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/373
14:09:15 <potty> #link ​https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_talk:Mailga
14:09:19 <giannisk> I was traveling the last days, need more time to provide some feedback for mailga's proposal
14:09:27 <potty> mailga: Excelent work!
14:09:33 <giannisk> mailga++
14:09:51 <potty> mailga++
14:10:10 <potty> Right now our task is to provide feedback to this framework.
14:10:50 <potty> Deadline was today but we can give extra days (using Trac and ML)
14:11:11 <potty> Do anybody here have recommendations to mailga?
14:11:14 <gnokii> i still think ambassadors and regions, is not doable
14:11:35 <bexelbie> Which ML has feedback gone to?
14:11:46 <potty> gnokii: may you explain your point a bit please
14:12:14 <mailga> bexelbie: FAmSCo ML, but no discussion yet.
14:12:32 <gnokii> simple, I said it before Ambassadors have to give up power, reserving 4 seats so that each region of them has one, is giving nothing up
14:12:36 <potty> bexelbie: hi! the mailing list we use currently is famsco
14:13:12 <potty> gnokii: what do you propose instead of having 4 seats (1 for each region)?
14:13:20 <bexelbie> ty - I am late to the party because of my recent appointment .. I wanted to be able to read and catch up
14:13:28 * nb thinks each region should have a seat on FOSCO
14:14:00 <bexelbie> !
14:14:01 <potty> gnokii: i ask you, how will you know the input from each region?
14:14:03 <mailga> bexelbie: feel free to ping us all the time.
14:14:07 <gnokii> I proposing from coming up to say an ambassador from the region as long there is somebody in FOSCo who can take care of the region it doesnt matter if he is an Ambassador or not
14:14:34 * bexelbie has a different concern around reserved seats for the regions
14:14:35 <mailga> gnokii: just like nb said?
14:15:01 <potty> bexelbie: you will go after gnokii finish
14:15:14 <gnokii> because of the input, you have to have 4 seats?
14:16:06 <gnokii> mailga: I dont see what nb said
14:16:21 <potty> gnokii: nb said that each region should have a seat on FOSCO
14:16:42 <potty> gnokii: so you think each region presence should be defined not necessarily by having a specific seat
14:16:51 <gnokii> a seat? or an responsible person there is a huge difference
14:17:19 <potty> gnokii: at the very end, what do you suggest?
14:17:29 * potty is trying to understand gnokii concerns
14:17:30 <gnokii> see above
14:17:49 <gnokii> 4 seats ambassadors is to much that is my concern
14:18:05 <gnokii> especially, you want to go with something what can grow
14:18:38 <potty> gnokii: how many seats and how do you get input from regions?
14:18:48 <potty> after that response  then is going bexelbie
14:18:53 <mailga> bexelbie: but dear friends, you had a week to update the ticket or edit your own proposal. Why should we have to start from 0?
14:19:12 <gnokii> potty I have given my answer already, if you not read it
14:19:50 <potty> gnokii: ok
14:19:55 <potty> bexelbie: go ahead
14:20:05 <giannisk> !
14:20:07 <bexelbie> I am late to the party as I only found out about the proposal on Monday.  I never saw anything posted about how this was being debated.  I have only read mailga's document once, so I may have missed some points.  However, it appears that one of the goals of FOSCo is to provide some communications and infrastructure to the non-engineering projects in a similar way to what FESCo does.  If we have a requirement that every SIG/WG/project/region
14:20:08 <bexelbie> have a seat the body will become very large and potentially unwieldly.
14:20:38 <bexelbie> I am worried it will turn into a body that can't coordinate because it can't get quorum.
14:20:55 <bexelbie> I also don't understand what is lost if a region has a rep and not a seat
14:21:03 <bexelbie> eom
14:21:14 <mailga> bexelbie: the problem here is to give voice to each group, IMO.
14:21:30 <bexelbie> I don't see voice as equalling a seat
14:21:40 <bexelbie> I see the body as administrative
14:21:51 <gnokii> bexelbie: exactly
14:21:51 <bexelbie> or is the body expected to arbitrate on something?
14:22:07 <bexelbie> for example, on budget, I would expect the body to help groups/regions/sigs/projects make a good request
14:22:18 <bexelbie> but I wouldn't expect this group to decide if a request even gets forwarded for consideration by council
14:22:52 <bexelbie> again, if I missed a point, please refer me to it and I will re-read
14:23:20 <mailga> bexelbie: of course, but if we include for example only amby of course they will help the ambassadors, and so other groups feel bad.
14:23:50 <bexelbie> mailga, I am not proposing to restrict the seats to ambassadors
14:23:58 <gnokii> ++
14:24:01 <bexelbie> my understanding ist hat this body is not supposed to be FAMSCo with a different name
14:24:23 <bexelbie> one option is to have a huge group with a belief that votes are infrequent so everyone gets a seat (Oprah style)
14:24:44 <bexelbie> or we an set up a rotation where there are N seats and they rotate amongst the groups that are part of the board (UN Security Council style)
14:24:57 <bexelbie> I am just trying to think through how we bring in more voices
14:25:28 <bexelbie> And I am picking up an undercurrent of concern about having 4 regional ambassadors ... the exact cause for concern isn't clear - but it seems obvious there is some concern
14:25:59 <potty> !
14:26:10 <giannisk> potty: you're the chair ;)
14:26:14 <potty> lol
14:26:16 <potty> forget that
14:26:22 <giannisk> potty: I have also asked to speak up, earlier
14:26:29 <potty> giannisk: go ahead
14:26:50 <mailga> bexelbie: Ambassadors was an example. I mean till today some groups feel they are at the borders, I don't want this happens anymore.
14:26:52 <giannisk> Folks, I do not see any issues with having 4 representatives from Ambassadors
14:27:03 <giannisk> Ambassadors is significantly larger compared to other sub-projects
14:27:12 <giannisk> It is also much more diverse I would say
14:27:21 <nb> giannisk++
14:27:30 <giannisk> It's really hard for a representative coming from EMEA to have a saying about APAC for example
14:27:37 <bexelbie> !
14:27:44 <potty> Current seats from regional ambassadors could be suppressed. Commops is having the delegates (traesurer, logistics and storyteller) and we can have input from them.
14:27:47 <potty> EOF
14:27:49 <potty> ping bexelbie
14:27:53 <giannisk> We have -lots- of communities across regions
14:28:10 <giannisk> eof - please share your thoughts as well
14:28:14 <bexelbie> I am not suggesting that we have someone from EMEA try to rep APAC.
14:29:17 <bexelbie> Is the goal here to go with full direct rep from groups or to have some groups still on an indirect representation?
14:29:51 <bexelbie> eom
14:29:53 <bexelbie> discuss
14:30:11 <mailga> bexelbie: in that way can we say commops is almost a FOSCo boby?
14:30:22 <giannisk> bexelbie: From what I see, a mix would be most ideal in our situation
14:30:43 <bexelbie> my concern is then how do you decide who is a "second-class citizen" and is forced to use an indirect mechanism and who is a "first-class citizen" ?
14:31:11 * bexelbie is not prepared to say one gropu is more important than another
14:31:50 <gnokii> bexelbie: that was already said from some here
14:32:01 <giannisk> bexelbie: let's not talk about first-class or second-class contributors, there's no such a thing :) I don't think anyone here wants to "judge" contributions, nor to make people feel excluded
14:32:21 <gnokii> hear hear
14:32:23 <bexelbie> giannisk, does this mean you think that all groups should have a rep to this body?
14:32:46 <gnokii> !
14:32:48 <bexelbie> let's put "groups == limited to official subprojects/projects of the Fedora Project" in play
14:33:09 <giannisk> bexelbie: nope, it does not; as I have stated multiple times, doing so might prevent us from handling FOSCo effeciently, aka we drop the ball
14:33:25 <bexelbie> so who isn't allowed to be in FOSCo?
14:33:31 <giannisk> bexelbie: my proposal was to start with a bare minimum: ambassadors + design + marketing + commops
14:33:39 <giannisk> bexelbie: see how it goes, and expand later on
14:33:49 <giannisk> bexelbie: we need to be agile here
14:33:55 <bexelbie> +1 for agile
14:34:01 <potty> gnokii: go ahead
14:34:38 <mailga> giannisk: that's the direction of my proposal. But I want give the possibility to any group to join.
14:35:08 <gnokii> aehm, just say it very clear giannisk you drove out web, you actually was that loud on flock against incooperating translation that they went ahead and created FLSCO
14:36:09 <gnokii> with the same goals, Matt had for FOSCo, so when you say, you dont want to exclude somebody then I find that funny
14:36:11 <gnokii> eof
14:36:18 <giannisk> mailga: we should -definitely- give this possibility later on, but I wouldn't do that during the "trial" phase
14:36:37 <giannisk> mailga: otherwise several groups will apply and we won't be able to handle it
14:36:46 <mailga> giannisk: that's included in my proposal.
14:37:06 <giannisk> mailga: we're now having a hard time organizing a committee of 4 groups, how are we supposed to handle even more? :D
14:37:11 <giannisk> mailga: awesome :)
14:37:46 <giannisk> gnokii: so what? :)
14:37:46 <mailga> giannisk: including other groups will be in charge of the first FOSCo.
14:37:46 <potty> let's land the feedback here
14:37:54 <gnokii> yeah so what, what
14:37:57 <potty> Do anyone here have a possible change on mailga proposal?
14:38:09 <gnokii> you torpedoing the whole idea
14:38:23 <giannisk> potty: I do, a slight change on the composition
14:39:07 <mailga> @all please do! Change anithing you want, but let's do it!
14:39:13 <potty> giannisk: name it
14:39:30 <mailga> s/anithing/anything
14:39:50 <potty> mailga: that's is the point. Let's be specifics and put start-date on the implementation (maybe experimentation) phase
14:40:26 <giannisk> potty: Apart from the representatives, I would include the FCL which can work as a liaison between FOSCo and the Council. That way we also end up with 9 seats, easier to maintain quorum.
14:40:55 <giannisk> mailga: we will do it :)
14:40:59 <bexelbie> giannisk, FCL is in there
14:41:08 <bexelbie> the position is renamed though .. it is actually FCAIC
14:41:18 <giannisk> bexelbie: FCAIC? right :)
14:41:24 <bexelbie> giannisk, yes
14:41:27 <mailga> potty: we're out of date. If there was no other proposal today, we will bring the only one.
14:41:28 <bexelbie> F-cake
14:41:38 * giannisk mumbles "action and impact co-ordinator", then nods.
14:41:47 <potty> mailga: there will not be any extra proposal
14:42:05 <potty> just final ideas before going live... while live, making the proper changes
14:42:37 <mailga> potty: and so let's go ahead. If noone is able to write anything, please accept the only proposal.
14:42:43 <potty> @all is there an issue to include FCAIC on composition?
14:42:51 <potty> sorry
14:42:55 <potty> actually he is included
14:42:59 <potty> so nothing new to include
14:43:03 <potty> sorry
14:43:18 <potty> let's go ahead with mailga proposal
14:43:21 <mailga> potty: bexelbie did it yet.
14:43:31 <bexelbie> I just s/FCL/FCAIC/
14:43:35 <bexelbie> I didn't chagne the substance
14:43:36 <giannisk> mailga: just curious, do we also need the FPL on the committee? what will his role be?
14:43:59 <potty> giannisk: I quote what mailga wrote: "Fedora Project Leader (only if necessary and he/she wants to)"
14:44:09 <mailga> giannisk: no, he's not mandatory.
14:44:12 <giannisk> potty: thanks, I missed that!
14:44:21 <potty> any other inquiry?
14:44:35 <potty> If not, mailga... You are the proposal leader, which is the next step?
14:45:47 <mailga> potty: next step is work together with bexelbie to make it readeable..... Then, probably, a meeting with the four groups representative to explain the proposal.
14:46:20 <bexelbie> 4 groups ... I thought it was 7?
14:47:16 <mailga> bexelbie: due to the giannisk probosal the starting groups are mktg-design-commops-amby.
14:47:20 <gnokii> bexelbie: there is a fraction here who doesnt want to include more then ambassadors, marketing, commops and design
14:47:22 <giannisk> Ambassadors + Marketing + Design + CommOps
14:47:37 <bexelbie> so 4 seats?  because people are also talking about the regions
14:47:39 <mailga> bexelbie: in a second phase, the new body will include athers.
14:47:53 * jflory7 is tied up during this meeting time, but if any input is needed from Marketing / CommOps, feel free to ping me at any time
14:47:54 <giannisk> gnokii: well, AFAICR, everyone expect you agreed to that composition
14:47:54 <bexelbie> is Ambassadors one group or 4 ... that seems to be a confusion point here
14:48:31 <mailga> bexelbie: because we have 4 regions with their own issues in the amby group.
14:48:38 <giannisk> bexelbie: it's one group represented by 4 people
14:48:47 <mailga> and FAmSCo will not last anymore.
14:48:52 <gnokii> yes because I have eyes you dont, thats why you springing around here saying ambassadors is the largest group, I really looking forward how you compare them to the by far bigger group of translators
14:49:12 <bexelbie> But doesn't this proposal replace FAMSCo which effectively ends the ambassadors as a group and makes them 4 regions?
14:49:13 <gnokii> the only problem is that translators are not that fixed fas group anymore
14:49:18 * bexelbie is confused
14:50:09 <mailga> bexelbie: FOSCo will replace FAmSCo, with other groups. All the FAmSCo duties will put in the FOSCo tasks.
14:50:32 <potty> Ambassadors (4 seats) + Marketing + Design + Commops + Docs
14:50:52 <bexelbie> so FOSCo has to direct ambassadors?  So that is confusing.  Because if an EMEA person can't rep APAC how is a marketing person supposed to guide?
14:51:04 <bexelbie> s/direct/guide/
14:51:13 <mailga> gnokii: good point, but as you said at Flock, g11n have some issues to be fixed. That's why we dicided to brig them up later.
14:51:43 <gnokii> mailga: thats nonsense, they are driven out from fosco
14:52:00 <mailga> bexelbie: that's why we propose to have 4 ambassadors representative (one for region).
14:52:19 <bexelbie> so then what duties of FAMSCo survive?
14:52:25 <bexelbie> if the reps are all just on FOSCo?
14:52:32 * bexelbie reopens the proposal
14:52:35 <mailga> gnokii: no, not really. We want g11n in FOSCo.
14:52:48 <nb> giannisk, why wouldn't websites and translation be part of FOSCO
14:53:06 <mailga> bexelbie: all the actual duties.
14:53:08 <potty> please remember that the group will expand
14:53:14 <gnokii> mailga: thats why they went straight after the famsco session in creating their representation comitee
14:53:15 <potty> now is the minimal to start
14:53:21 <potty> and the other groups will be included
14:53:24 <mailga> nb: they will bring up later.
14:53:25 <giannisk> nb: who said they wouldn't be? :) They can by all means join later on. But we can't handle it now. We need to start with a minimum.
14:53:36 <potty> !
14:53:52 <giannisk> bexelbie: To me, FOSCo (at its trial phase) is going to be an extension of FAmSCo which would also include another 3 sub-projects.
14:53:59 <mailga> gnokii: ok, so we have a problem first. Do we really need FOSCo?
14:54:21 <giannisk> bexelbie: Many current tasks of FAmSCo will be migrated to FOSCo.
14:54:21 <gnokii> yes we would need one
14:54:25 <potty> The issue here is that Ambassadors is having 4 seats. Some think that 1 seat would be sufficient but others think that specific regional issues will not get to FOSCo.
14:54:37 <potty> How do we solve that?
14:54:43 <gnokii> and the problems we would have to solve are of different nature as all the time talking about seats
14:54:53 <gnokii> just one point
14:54:55 <mailga> potty: the only way will be keeping FAmSCo alive.
14:55:38 <gnokii> one of the things mattdm had was to spread the budget to the different groups, then I ask you what famsco is currently handling on budget nothing we delegated it to the regions
14:55:48 <potty> Or having 1 Ambassador seat and each region should point to that representant
14:58:04 <potty> Am I still online?
14:58:14 <bexelbie> yes
14:58:52 * giannisk will be afk for a while.
14:58:57 <nb> the problem with spreading the budget to different groups is how will ambassadors continue to do what we do now if our budget gets reduced?
14:58:59 <bexelbie> gnokii, budget may be a red herring.  I would look at other famsco/fosco items.  Budget is allocated and we have guidelines for spend.
14:59:36 <bexelbie> nb, that is a real concern.  But putting what looks like a power-block into the group to protect budget seems to be the wrong way to handle this.  AFAIK no one has proposed budget cuts.
15:00:03 <nb> bexelbie, well, we already had the budget "reallocated" for this year
15:00:16 <nb> and the regions got less and FAD/Outreach got some of it
15:00:41 <bexelbie> but budget will always have to be allocated based on the needs of the project and the amount of money we have
15:00:49 <bexelbie> we should always have more requests that we can fill
15:01:43 <bexelbie> I don't like the feeling that ambassadors wants to be able to just veto budget requests from other gruops to preserve itself
15:01:50 <bexelbie> I don't think that is the intention
15:01:55 <bexelbie> but it feels poor if it is
15:02:01 <gnokii> bexelbie: not mine!
15:02:04 * nb does not think that is the intention
15:03:20 <bexelbie> so does this group see itself as a budget allocation group?
15:03:29 <bexelbie> I am working on continuing the budget.next project now
15:03:31 <bexelbie> so I don't have an answer
15:03:38 <bexelbie> but I thought council ultimately made the allocations
15:04:54 <gnokii> bexelbie: currently famsco is not
15:05:20 <gnokii> but as stated one of the ideas was to spread the budget wider
15:05:45 <bexelbie> that is the direction I received from council .. not as much "spread the budget wider" but "make sure we get input from the project as a whole"
15:06:22 <gnokii> yes exactly
15:06:22 <kushal> hello everyone
15:06:32 <potty> guys
15:06:54 <potty> fosco, shall we go ahead with mailga proposal and correct issues on the road?
15:07:34 <gnokii> potty, a car without tire will never driver and you hardly can repair a engine during driving
15:08:17 <giannisk> potty: they layout and concept of mailga's idea is fine, I like it, we just need to settle on important details
15:08:27 <giannisk> potty: especially the objectives of the new committee
15:09:01 <potty> giannisk: totally agree with you
15:09:50 <potty> gnokii: i disagree, we have a car with most (not all) of its parts but we are sure the car will suffer modifications on the road.
15:09:59 * bexelbie figured you all had already talked through objectives .. did everyone start with the seats part of the document?
15:10:41 <giannisk> bexelbie: No, we didn't. And yes, I know...
15:11:03 <gnokii> potty of course a car with some parts missing, just hope it are parts that are not necessary to drive it
15:11:06 * giannisk will be afk again for a while, apologies.
15:11:11 <mailga> potty: assign a deadline for the last proposal. I invite all of you to work on using the ticket or the ML, but respecting the deadline.
15:12:36 <potty> mailga: i think is not necessary to set extra deadline
15:12:40 <potty> today was the date
15:12:45 <potty> let's continue with the schedule
15:13:53 <potty> mailga and bexelbie, please coordinate a date to make the proposal more readable and formal
15:14:17 <potty> after that, mailga send out an invitation to each involved in the composition
15:14:23 <potty> sounds like a plan?
15:14:39 <mailga> potty: if bexelbie agrees for me is ok.
15:15:08 <bexelbie> I am happy to help with editing and cleanup
15:15:19 <bexelbie> I don't want to accidentally change intent so I like that there will be another review
15:15:32 <mailga> bexelbie: thanks so much.
15:16:03 <bexelbie> be aware I have some travel too :)
15:16:08 <bexelbie> so I will be as available as I can
15:16:47 <mailga> bexelbie: ok. have you a date for the deadline?
15:17:37 <bexelbie> what are you thinking?
15:17:51 <potty> i'm sorry
15:17:58 <potty> i'll close the meeting
15:18:03 <potty> we are in overtime
15:18:14 <potty> do anyone have extra topics to discuss?
15:18:17 <mailga> I'm in your hands, also because I'm not native and I want the message will be understandable.
15:18:39 <mailga> bexelbie: we can continue in PM.
15:18:55 <mailga> so potty can end the meeting.
15:18:58 <bexelbie> +1
15:19:05 * bexelbie sends +1 via PM too :P
15:19:06 <potty> thank you :)
15:19:52 <potty> Before ending the meeting, I would like to thank you all for participating and being part of this. I know this will not be easy but the results of this transformation would be awesome for the project.
15:20:02 <potty> I will close this in 2 minutes.
15:20:11 <potty> nb++
15:20:11 <zodbot> potty: Karma for nb changed to 10 (for the f24 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:20:13 <potty> bexelbie++
15:20:14 <zodbot> potty: Karma for bex changed to 10 (for the f24 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:20:18 <potty> giannisk++
15:20:20 <potty> gnokii++
15:20:27 <potty> mailga++
15:22:01 <potty> #endmeeting