14:18:04 <potty> #startmeeting famsco
14:18:04 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Sep 21 14:18:04 2016 UTC.  The chair is potty. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:18:04 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:18:04 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famsco'
14:18:09 <potty> #topic Roll Call
14:18:25 <potty> ping cwickert mailga giannisk tuanta lbazan gnokii
14:18:38 <potty> .hello potty
14:18:42 <zodbot> potty: potty 'Abdel G. Martínez L.' <abdel.g.martinez.l@gmail.com>
14:18:59 <potty> Welcome to FAmSco weekly meeting
14:19:08 <potty> ping bexelbie
14:19:10 * kushal is here.
14:19:29 <tuanta> .hello tuanta
14:19:29 <zodbot> tuanta: tuanta 'Truong Anh Tuan' <tuanta@iwayvietnam.com>
14:21:08 <giannisk> .fas giannisk
14:21:09 <zodbot> giannisk: giannisk 'Giannis Konstantinidis' <giannis@konstantinidis.cc>
14:21:15 * giannisk waves at everyone
14:21:50 * potty waves
14:22:31 <bexelbie> .fas bex
14:22:33 <giannisk> How many are we, today?
14:22:33 <zodbot> bexelbie: ybexwqmxnx 'ybexwqmxnx yhdgb' <ybexwqmxnx@nowmymail.com> - bexhet '' <bexhet@hotmail.it> - lonelyibex 'fungo' <lonelyibex@gmail.com> - moko 'moko lee' <ibex@msn.cn> - sfarr01 'Steven Farr' <sfarr@bex.net> - tqtwr 'gsafd' <mesabexudi@top1mail.ru> - mcreps 'Merl Creps Jr' <merljr@bex.net> - tbex 'Tony Beckham' <t2yb5m@gmail.com> - efjiwmos 'takagiatuko' <bexroll@gmail.com> - makubex 'Bruno Lopes de Mello' (2 more messages)
14:22:35 <potty> #info Attendance: 3/7
14:22:46 <giannisk> potty: right
14:22:47 <potty> Plus other contributors
14:22:58 <kushal> bexelbie, should be .hellomynameis bex :)
14:22:59 <potty> Lets start
14:23:03 <bexelbie> .hello bex
14:23:04 <zodbot> bexelbie: bex 'Brian (bex) Exelbierd' <bex@pobox.com>
14:23:10 <bexelbie> kushal, I know .. I mistype it constantly :(
14:23:37 * bexelbie really wants to meet ybexwqmxnx
14:24:24 <potty> First topic today will be FOSCo
14:24:46 <potty> #topic Transforming FAmSCo into FOSCo
14:24:56 <potty> .famsco 373
14:24:56 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/373
14:25:05 <gnokii> .fas gnokii
14:25:05 <zodbot> gnokii: gnokii 'Sirko Kemter' <buergermeister@karl-tux-stadt.de>
14:25:30 <potty> bexelbie: do you have updates here?
14:25:57 <potty> mailga: same question
14:26:12 <bexelbie> so
14:26:17 <bexelbie> I didn't finish the English cleanup
14:26:20 <bexelbie> I am sorry
14:26:31 <bexelbie> the conference I was at on Sunday-Tuesday was more intense than expected
14:26:50 <bexelbie> I need to do a bit of wordsmithing as the proposal doesn't reflect mailga real desires ina  few places
14:27:09 <potty> It is no problem. The important thing here is that the proposal is in progress.
14:27:11 <bexelbie> I also had dinner with cwickert last night and have a few points from him (in the ticket too) that may wish to be considered
14:27:16 <bexelbie> yes, it is
14:28:47 <potty> So, right now proposal is in progress. People can still share their feedback on the ticket and next week we can review it again?
14:28:54 <bexelbie> yes
14:29:04 <bexelbie> but it would probably be better if people got their input in ASAP
14:29:17 <bexelbie> I am traveling for personal reasons next week starting Friday night - so I need to get this done fast or push it a week
14:29:23 * giannisk is checking the famsco trac.
14:29:24 <bexelbie> I mean this week
14:29:34 <bexelbie> I will be gone until Wednesday without a PC :(
14:29:41 <gnokii> uuh
14:29:41 <bexelbie> sorry - just bad timing with a prearranged vacation
14:29:52 <potty> bexelbie: do you need extra help? I mean somebody help you out?
14:30:02 <gnokii> bexelbie: ouch
14:30:21 <bexelbie> I am enlisting cwickert for help with the ideas he presented in the ticket and over dinner
14:30:43 <bexelbie> as for the other, I think I can get it done by Friday when I leave - I just won't be able to be in the meeting on Wednesday as I'll be in a plane flying home
14:30:54 <bexelbie> But we should be able to get a ticket conversation started, I think
14:31:31 <potty> Ok
14:31:59 <bexelbie> note to self - give up ever having a vacation in septemeber
14:32:24 <potty> Do anyone else have any inputs on this topic?
14:32:53 <giannisk> potty: none at the moment; will try to add my thoughts on the ticker later this day
14:32:59 <giannisk> s/ticker/ticket
14:33:09 <potty> Thank you giannisk
14:34:38 <giannisk> potty: let's move on, shall we? :)
14:34:56 <potty> Yes
14:35:24 <giannisk> potty: I have one issue I'd like to bring up at the end of the meeting
14:36:35 <potty> #topic Nominating Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay as a mentor from India
14:36:47 <potty> .famsco 402
14:36:47 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/402
14:36:51 <potty> giannisk: ok
14:37:58 <potty> We have to vote on this
14:38:32 <potty> mailga, tuanta, gnokii, giannisk
14:38:45 <potty> AFAIK, gnokii voted +1
14:38:58 <potty> I will vote +1 as well
14:39:21 <tuanta> +1 from me too
14:39:22 <giannisk> kushal vouches for the nominee - i confirm the nomination
14:39:25 <giannisk> +1
14:39:50 <gnokii> you need my vote a second time?
14:39:53 <potty> Right now we have 3 +1 and 0 -1
14:39:58 <potty> Sorry
14:40:16 <giannisk> Also, according to the process:
14:40:17 <potty> 4 +1 and 0 -1
14:40:28 <giannisk> ""Regional Ambassador Mentors are a group of people - selected, proposed and appointed by people - not by a leveling system - based on trust (and a lot of soft facts). Prospective mentors are nominated by existing Mentors and confirmed by FAmSCo"
14:40:37 <giannisk> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors_Join_choose_a_mentor#Regional_Ambassador_Mentors
14:41:18 <potty> giannisk: we are aññ
14:41:23 <potty> all good then
14:41:35 <gnokii> ^^
14:41:35 <giannisk> potty: yeap
14:42:01 <potty> #agreed Ticket 402 is approved
14:42:22 <giannisk> All: let's also post our confirmations at the ticket itself
14:42:50 <potty> I will post the results and link of this meeting in the trac ticket
14:43:29 <potty> Any extra inputs on this ticket?
14:44:25 <kushal> Thanks for the fast resolution.
14:44:38 <potty> you are welcome kushal
14:45:00 <gnokii> kushal: still waiting for the second ticket
14:45:03 <giannisk> kushal++ potty++
14:45:18 <potty> do we have any other topics here?
14:45:34 <giannisk> potty: in general? yes, I have one
14:45:39 <kushal> gnokii, yup.
14:45:41 <potty> #chair giannisk
14:45:41 <zodbot> Current chairs: giannisk potty
14:45:45 <potty> set the topic
14:45:55 <potty> i will be away for 15 minutes :(
14:45:58 <giannisk> #topic FAmSCo status for lbazan
14:45:59 <kushal> I have point to ask (or should I do it as a ticket only)?
14:46:22 <gnokii> kushal: ask in open floor
14:46:56 <giannisk> So, folks, as you are all well aware lbazan has not been an active FAmSCo member for quite some time.
14:47:13 <giannisk> If my memory serves me correctly, he has never attended any IRC meeting.
14:47:22 <potty> only one meeting giannisk
14:47:26 <giannisk> And he has rarely posted on the mailing list or commented on a FAmSCo trac ticket.
14:47:29 <giannisk> potty: right
14:47:43 <giannisk> He never sends regrets or anything else at the mailing list.
14:47:59 <giannisk> He's completely absent and does not fulfill any FAmSCo-related duties.
14:48:16 <giannisk> Now, I don't wanna be the bad guy here, but I don't like the situation here.
14:48:22 <giannisk> And we need to solve this.
14:48:58 <potty> I will talk to lbazan
14:49:00 <giannisk> This is an elected position, if lbazan cannot show some kind of commitment, it might be better for him to resign.
14:49:09 <potty> FIll a ticket giannisk
14:49:17 <giannisk> potty: I will certainly do.
14:49:32 <potty> If he is not available to attend
14:49:37 <giannisk> This is quite serious and I'm surprised that none of us brought this up earlier.
14:49:47 <giannisk> (Including myself)
14:50:04 <giannisk> eof
14:50:08 <giannisk> Thoughts, comments?
14:50:33 <potty> If he will not be attending I will tell him to drop his role as Famsco
14:50:39 <potty> There should be no problems at all
14:50:43 <potty> Fill the ticket
14:50:45 <potty> I will do the laundry
14:50:47 <potty> EOF
14:50:55 <giannisk> potty: Sure, thanks
14:50:59 <potty> :)
14:51:01 <potty> Any other topics?
14:51:18 <giannisk> potty: kushal had something to be discussed during Open Floor
14:51:28 <potty> #topic Open  Floor
14:51:58 <potty> kushal: go ahead
14:52:07 <kushal> So I can see people (from India) coming in the meeting, and claiming to be Ambassador. Where as their FAS info show as campus ambassador.
14:52:20 <kushal> I have no clue who they are.
14:52:54 <giannisk> Was the campus ambassadors program restarted?
14:53:14 <giannisk> Because, a few years ago, you had to be a fully-vetted ambassador in order to become a campus ambassador.
14:53:21 <gnokii> ^^
14:53:24 <kushal> Wondering if FAMSCo has anything to say about this.
14:53:24 <kushal> This will confuse the community for sure.
14:53:49 * bexelbie wasn't even aware we had an official campus program
14:53:59 <giannisk> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Campus_Ambassadors
14:54:04 <gnokii> bexelbie: commops thing
14:54:47 <gnokii> for India its indeed a problem, they apply for that group the owner puts them in without questions and they think they are ambassador
14:54:53 <bexelbie> reads like you still have to be a member of the ambassadors program .. kushal do you have an example whose fas record we could look at?
14:55:04 <kushal> wait, looking
14:55:46 <giannisk> FYI: This initiative started several years ago, though never truly made any progress.
14:55:56 <giannisk> Now, AFAIK, CommOps wants to bring it back to life.
14:56:19 <giannisk> Not sure if they changed the structure or what - in the past you had to be an ambassador already in order to join.
14:56:55 <bexelbie> gnokii, nothing on that wiki indicates this is a commops project
14:56:58 <gnokii> .fasinfo phoenix1796
14:56:59 <bexelbie> it reads like an ambassadors project
14:56:59 <zodbot> gnokii: User: phoenix1796, Name: Abhishek Chopra, email: abhishek.chopra1796@gmail.com, Creation: 2016-05-15, IRC Nick: phoenix1796, Timezone: Asia/Kolkata, Locale: en, GPG key ID: None, Status: active
14:57:02 <zodbot> gnokii: Approved Groups: campusambassadors cla_done cla_fpca
14:57:15 <gnokii> bexelbie: look how old the pages are
14:57:15 <kushal> gnokii, thanks.
14:57:31 <bexelbie> this is the problem with the wiki - if the page isn't marked as old program or deleted ...
14:57:49 <giannisk> gnokii: Well, that particular person is not a member of the 'ambassadors' group, therefore is not an ambassador.
14:58:14 <kushal> giannisk, but already a campus ambassador, and then claiming to be ambassador in fedora apac meeting.
14:58:16 <bexelbie> who is approving entry to campusambassadors group?
14:58:23 <gnokii> giannisk: wow, you tell me something I did not realize
14:58:28 <giannisk> kushal: well yes, that's a problem indeed
14:58:40 <gnokii> bexelbie: several people
14:58:46 <giannisk> gnokii: see? I'm smart ;)
14:59:17 <kushal> bexelbie, https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/group/members/campusambassadors/*/sponsor is the list
14:59:33 <gnokii> in case of phoenix1796 the sponsor was jbwilia
15:01:07 * potty is away
15:01:23 <bexelbie> So when FAmSCo decided to discountinue the program, what should have been the process to close the group?
15:01:55 * kushal goes out
15:01:57 <giannisk> May I propose the following? A) Campus Ambassadors should not accept any new contributors at the FAS group at this time - until they figure out what the scope of their program is. B) It needs to be clearly communicated that all Campus Ambassadors who are not fully-vetted Ambassadors cannot call themselves as such at this point.
15:02:15 <giannisk> bexelbie: it was never decided to be discontinued in fact, it just started gathering dust.
15:02:30 <giannisk> bexelbie: now some CommOps folks want to bring it back to life
15:02:47 <bexelbie> Did they contact FAmSCo about that?
15:03:03 <giannisk> bexelbie: No, they did not.
15:03:07 <gnokii> bexelbie: commops contacts nobody they go just ahead
15:03:26 <bexelbie> If they didn't contact famsco how did they get permission to add people to the FAS group?
15:03:27 <giannisk> bexelbie: At least there has been no public communication towards FAmSCo so far, we have not been notified as a whole.
15:03:48 <gnokii> bexelbie: simple a group admin can make sponsors
15:04:03 <bexelbie> but all of the group admins should be ambassadors
15:04:07 <bexelbie> who would know the rules, right?
15:05:07 <bexelbie> so it sounds like there needs to be 1) confirmation of the idea that commops really wants to restart campus ambassadors in partnership with ambassadors (and the willingness of ambassadors to do it) and 2) and audit and clean up of hte campus ambassadors group that should have been done when ambassadors decided to halt the program (even if it was a slow halt)
15:06:41 <gnokii> to be honest campus ambassadors is a little bit unecessary like the description on the page you will get you blog added to the planet, hello the ambassadors have added it alread
15:06:47 <bexelbie> giannisk, I just saw your comment above - didn't mean to repeat it in different words
15:07:00 <giannisk> bexelbie: no worries
15:07:02 <bexelbie> gnokii, the page is out of date as you pointed out
15:07:14 <bexelbie> but I think the page's description is the smallest issue here
15:08:03 <gnokii> bexelbie: what I mean the group is obsolete in that way like the planet thing
15:08:05 <bexelbie> (related: is there a better way to query details about a FAS group?  I'd love to figure out who is not also an ambassador and when those kinds of folks started getting added)
15:08:18 <giannisk> kushal: Would you like to open up a ticket on the FAmSCo trac? We will keep the discussion flowing and will also involve CommOps.
15:08:21 <bexelbie> gnokii, if famsco wants to completely disband the group - then take that action
15:08:46 <bexelbie> but worrying about planet access right now is ignoring the larger structural issue, imho
15:09:45 <bexelbie> especially because even I am allowed to put my blog in planet.fp.o :D
15:09:47 <giannisk> I don't think we should disband something which is currently being reformed by other contributors. It's just that these contributors need to notify FAmSCo and make sure that clear guidelines are set before accepting new people at the group..
15:10:02 <gnokii> bexelbie: I just have the feeling some wanted to outreach more to campuses and thought well there is that group lets just use in instead of thinking is it the right way
15:10:10 <bexelbie> giannisk, so how about we start by opening communication with commops and clarifying their intentions
15:10:14 <bexelbie> we may not even know what they want
15:10:48 <giannisk> bexelbie: exactly, this is what I proposed earlier as well - I, or kushal, may open up a ticket, then we initiate the discussion.
15:10:49 <bexelbie> it may also be worthwhile to make sure that all fasgroups associated with famsco have clean sponsor and admin lists :)
15:11:01 * giannisk brb
15:11:19 <bexelbie> giannisk, you are right you proposed it .. I am not hearing everyone saying, "yes, let's do that"
15:11:25 <gnokii> bexelbie: that sounds like a plan
15:12:36 <bexelbie> are all of the administrators of the campusambassadors group ambassadors?
15:12:59 <gnokii> bexelbie: we would have to look to that
15:13:10 <bexelbie> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/group/members/campusambassadors/*/administrator?_csrf_token=4326ae62fc4ca33cc578550a6ee3a6199539b682
15:13:45 <gnokii> admins are all ambassadors
15:13:48 <giannisk> bexelbie: just checked all of them - yes, they are
15:14:02 <bexelbie> and they are active so they can be expected to know what the situation is?
15:14:12 * bexelbie doesn't know how to tell if someone is active or not with this group
15:14:15 <gnokii> in case of nb yes
15:14:38 <gnokii> biertie wasnt seen some years and markdude, works more periodically
15:14:46 <giannisk> bexelbie: I believe most of them should still be active
15:14:52 <bexelbie> same with the sponsors?
15:15:00 <gnokii> right now he seems to be in the period doing something else
15:15:17 <nb> jo
15:15:18 <nb> hi
15:15:24 <giannisk> bexelbie: Oh, hold on. I meant most of the sponsors are active. Not the members. Same with their ambassadors status.
15:15:40 <bexelbie> I was asking about the group admins as well giannisk
15:16:13 <gnokii> bexelbie: they are all ambassadors as well
15:16:36 <nb> At least originally, FAmSCo did not run campusambassadors, as far as i understand
15:16:59 <bexelbie> nb, who did? does?
15:17:25 <nb> from what I have been told, the campusambassadors admins
15:17:27 * giannisk needs to leave in a few.
15:17:29 <nb> used to
15:17:42 * nb searches for the meeting log where famsco talked about it before
15:17:56 <potty> people
15:17:57 <bexelbie> a quick look seems to indicate there are probably only 4 users who were incorrectly added
15:18:02 <potty> may i close the meeting?
15:18:03 <nb> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/famsco/2010-April/000157.html
15:18:14 <potty> or are we still in the meeting?
15:18:29 <nb> bexelbie, incorrectly by what definition?
15:18:39 <bexelbie> nb, they aren't ambassadors as required by the wiki definition
15:18:49 <nb> bexelbie, the wiki needs to be updated, we removed that requirement
15:18:49 <bexelbie> I also suggest that you all are allowed to revisit a 2010 decision
15:18:56 <bexelbie> nb, when?
15:19:11 <nb> bexelbie, a few months ago when we started adding people again
15:19:18 <bexelbie> as it sounds like there is now confusion as people are claiming to be ambassadors when they aren't which is upsetting ambassasdors
15:19:27 <nb> oh
15:19:38 <nb> maybe we need to make it more clear that campusambassador != ambassador
15:19:40 <bexelbie> and it sounds like the restart was never communicated outward
15:19:44 <gnokii> bexelbie: its not about upsetting
15:19:52 <bexelbie> where is the blog or mag article that says the group is restarted?
15:20:11 <bexelbie> also the mailing list for the group is inactive
15:20:44 <gnokii> just rename the group to campusinitiative
15:21:20 <nb> it was discussed at least in some of the regional meetings, i  thought it was mentioned in at least one famsco meeting
15:21:52 <bexelbie> nb but how does the project as a whole know?
15:22:01 <nb> bexelbie, it hasn't really been kicked off yet
15:22:09 <nb> jflory7, ping
15:22:09 <zodbot> nb: Ping with data, please: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/No_naked_pings
15:22:19 <nb> jflory7, would be good if you were here to talk since you are kind of spearheading this
15:22:21 <bexelbie> apparently it is active enough that people in India are already showing up in meetings saying they're ambassadors
15:23:23 <bexelbie> sounds like this should move as giannisk has suggested to a ticket
15:23:29 <bexelbie> just offering some questions that should be explored
15:23:37 <bexelbie> I am happy to attend a meeting (if I am available) if it would help
15:23:55 <nb> for now, i will add the ambassadors requirement back
15:24:02 <nb> until there is more discussion
15:24:04 <nb> if that sounds ok
15:24:51 <bexelbie> you have that power alone nb?
15:25:50 <bexelbie> but, given the communication status, questions raised, and the wiki page, it sounds like the non-ambassadors need to be spoken too and considered and that the program should stop until it is clear what is going on
15:26:08 * nb is an admin, i was going to do it as an interim measure until there is more discussion about if we want it to be open to non-ambassadors
15:26:15 * nb was not going to remove anyone from the group
15:26:52 <bexelbie> when does this group meet nb?  There doesn't seem to be a fedocal for them
15:26:54 <nb> bexelbie, does that sound ok? I have to leave now, work meeting
15:26:58 <nb> bexelbie, no scheduled meetings
15:27:36 <gnokii> bexelbie: its more an administrative group
15:28:00 <bexelbie> I think you should do that nb
15:28:03 <nb> bexelbie, ok
15:28:09 <bexelbie> I think this "administrative" group needs to think about how it is supposed to work
15:28:14 <bexelbie> as it is far from transparent from where I sit
15:28:17 <nb> bexelbie, done
15:28:22 * nb will read the log, I have to leave now
15:28:25 <bexelbie> how did you do it nb?
15:28:51 <nb> bexelbie, FAS
15:28:59 <nb> edit the group and put the prerequisite back
15:29:08 * nb didn't remove any existing non-ambassador members
15:29:33 <bexelbie> ahh
15:29:39 <gnokii> ok, lets get some action items for that
15:30:03 <gnokii> #action kushal make the ticket in famsco trac describe the problem
15:30:55 <gnokii> #action bexelbie talk with commops what they want to achieve with reanimating campusambassadors
15:31:30 <gnokii> #action all continue discussion in the ticket of kushal
15:31:38 <gnokii> ok that way?
15:32:12 <gnokii> anything else or can we close?
15:33:45 * bexelbie has nothing to raise in open session
15:33:51 <bexelbie> open table
15:34:14 <gnokii> bexelbie: when you for holiday over weekend until wednesday, you would have no time on monday to?
15:34:42 <bexelbie> I will be without a PC from Saturday to Wednesday night
15:34:53 <bexelbie> gnokii, is this re: fudcon APAC?
15:34:59 * giannisk is out, goodbye everyone.
15:35:02 <gnokii> bexelbie: yes
15:35:32 <bexelbie> gnokii, I don't recall us having a meeting scheduled for monday, did I forget one?
15:36:10 <gnokii> bexelbie: idea was 2pm you timezone
15:37:48 <bexelbie> crap
15:37:50 <bexelbie> :)
15:38:15 <bexelbie> ok, I didn't put it on my calendar if we did pick a date
15:38:31 <bexelbie> Monday at 2pm my time will not work because I will be in Italy without a PC and possibly eating cheese and drinking wine :P
15:38:49 <gnokii> bexelbie: its ok
15:38:50 <gnokii> i will close the meeting now
15:38:50 <gnokii> #endmeeting
15:39:01 <bexelbie> Friday would work, but I think that will destroy the opps for APAC as that is your Saturday, I think
15:39:09 <potty> thank you gnokii
15:39:13 <bexelbie> Thursday at another time
15:39:23 <gnokii> mmh, looks I am not chairing potty close it
15:39:28 <bexelbie> Wednesday, if I have to after 9pm my time
15:39:39 <potty> #endmeeting