14:00:49 <mailga> #startmeeting FAmSCo 2016-10-19
14:00:49 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Oct 19 14:00:49 2016 UTC.  The chair is mailga. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:00:49 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:00:49 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famsco_2016-10-19'
14:00:59 <mailga> #meetingname famsco
14:00:59 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famsco'
14:01:08 <mailga> #topic Roll call
14:01:11 <bexelbie> .hello bex
14:01:12 <zodbot> bexelbie: bex 'Brian (bex) Exelbierd' <bex@pobox.com>
14:01:16 <mailga> .hello mailga
14:01:17 <zodbot> mailga: mailga 'Gabriele Trombini' <g.trombini@gmail.com>
14:01:31 <mailga> chair bexelbie gnokii
14:01:46 <mailga> #chair bexelbie gnokii
14:01:46 <zodbot> Current chairs: bexelbie gnokii mailga
14:01:48 <gnokii> .fas gnokii
14:01:49 <zodbot> gnokii: gnokii 'Sirko Kemter' <buergermeister@karl-tux-stadt.de>
14:02:55 <mailga> gnokii: we have here bexelbie if is ok for you, we can set the topic to FOSCo and let bexelbie to update the proposal.
14:03:44 <mailga> #topic upcoming FOSCo - updates from FCAIC
14:03:57 <mailga> bexelbie: go ahead!
14:04:06 <bexelbie> So in conversations with mailga cwickert and others about all of the proposals, a common theme kept coming up.  FOSCo needed to both coordinate the various outreach groups (in a way like FESCo does for engineering), but also needed to solve internal issues of hte Ambassadors
14:04:40 <bexelbie> There doesn't seem to be a way to construct a single body that can do both.  I had extensive conversations and it seems like the best path forward is to write a minimal charge for both FOSCo and a new FAMSCo
14:04:52 <bexelbie> this way FOSCo can begin its work and figure out what kind of structure it needs
14:04:59 <potty> hi
14:05:00 <bexelbie> and FAMSCo can reboot itself
14:05:03 <potty> .hello potty
14:05:04 <zodbot> potty: potty 'Abdel G. Martínez L.' <abdel.g.martinez.l@gmail.com>
14:05:11 <mailga> #chair potty
14:05:11 <zodbot> Current chairs: bexelbie gnokii mailga potty
14:05:17 <bexelbie> The idea being that FAMSCo gets to restart with a clean slate and figure out what it means to be an ambassador and do ambassador things
14:05:24 <bexelbie> without having to focus on all of hte other pieces
14:05:43 <bexelbie> Another way to think of it is, do we really need to have a member of docs vote on whether an event in a specific country should be held
14:05:46 <gnokii> isnt that funny
14:05:54 <bexelbie> or if a specific person should become a mentor
14:06:00 <bexelbie> eom (for now :P)
14:06:24 <mailga> gnokii: your turn.
14:07:05 <mailga> gnokii: you there?
14:07:13 <gnokii> to be honest the famsco before this famsco disappeared for more then a year and the ambassadors still exist, so maybe some overate there something
14:07:16 <gnokii> eof
14:07:28 <bexelbie> !
14:07:46 <mailga> bexelbie: you are a chair, just speak.
14:07:57 <bexelbie> I am in favor of retaining a FAMSCo for several reasons
14:08:09 <bexelbie> 1. It allows for greater global coordination and maintenance of standards
14:08:21 <bexelbie> 2. It allows for consolidation of effort around events and things like swag production
14:08:36 <gnokii> !
14:08:41 <bexelbie> 3. It is not practical to put all 4 regions on FOSCo without unbalancing it - so we need an Amby voice
14:08:44 <bexelbie> eom
14:09:04 <gnokii> famsco has nothing to do with swag production
14:09:11 <gnokii> thats in the hand of the regions
14:09:17 <gnokii> same with the budget
14:09:35 <potty> !
14:09:41 <bexelbie> !
14:09:49 <mailga> potty first
14:09:58 <gnokii> the only decisions we still have to make is mentors, and we have a voice in fudcon selection of the place but to be honest its more a farce
14:10:03 <gnokii> eof
14:10:14 <potty> Do you think is better to have FAMsCO where its members are from the different regions?
14:11:01 <potty> 1 seat for each region
14:11:17 <potty> In that way we can get the input specifically from each region
14:11:23 <potty> And solve as a team the inquiries
14:11:24 <potty> eof
14:11:47 <bexelbie> I suggest you have a regionally representative FAMSCo.  The fact that FAMSCo hasn't done some things in the past shouldn't prevent it from doing those in the future.  Times and needs change.  In the case of budgets, we need someone to sanity check the regions.  In the case of swag, consolidation of orders could have real value.  In the case of FUDCons ... well FAMSCo may not play a part there anymore .. who knows.  eof
14:12:38 <potty> !
14:12:56 <bexelbie> s/you/we/ :)
14:13:28 <potty> so the idea here is to retain famsco and improve our duties?
14:13:34 <bexelbie> yes
14:13:34 <mailga> bexelbie: you have to say something about gnokii sentence before?
14:14:03 <bexelbie> mailga, I feel like I responded to gnokii above.  I politely disagreed with his assessment.
14:14:35 <potty> !
14:14:40 <gnokii> !
14:14:44 <mailga> potty: shoot
14:14:59 <potty> bexelbie: what is your idea to improve famsco current duties?
14:15:24 <bexelbie> !
14:15:41 <mailga> bexelbie: go
14:15:50 <bexelbie> I am not heavily involved in any specific region.  However, it seems the regions are all going in different directions and not necessarily working toward the same goals
14:16:00 <bexelbie> some of that is appropriate as different places/cultures have different needs
14:16:02 <bexelbie> some is not.
14:16:17 <bexelbie> I think FAMSCo needs to look at global standards and goals. and work with the regions to adapt them appropraitely
14:16:27 <bexelbie> we need the regions to be both self-sufficient and good at reporting out
14:16:38 <bexelbie> we also need to share ideas across the regioins
14:16:57 <bexelbie> for example, in LATAM they have developed some materials that when translated into another language may be very useful elsewhere
14:17:02 <bexelbie> I am not seeing that kind of cooperations
14:17:22 <bexelbie> we need ambassadors .. not 4 groups of ambassadors who don't have ambassadors to each other :)
14:17:23 <bexelbie> eof
14:17:36 <mailga> gnokii: your turn.
14:18:19 <gnokii> first something to LATAM they always played their own game and separated themself and you will not change it
14:19:23 <gnokii> this regional thinking is totally nonsense, currently there is no ambassador from NA involved in famsco and thats not the first time, you can never assure that there will be elected one of each region
14:19:29 <bexelbie> !
14:20:31 <mailga> bexelbie: if gnokii ended his points, speak.
14:20:45 <gnokii> o sorry eof
14:20:47 <mailga> gnokii? EOF?
14:20:53 <mailga> ok bexelbie go.
14:20:58 <bexelbie> gnokii, I think you are living too much by stereotypes.  If we want change we have to give a compelling reason for it to happen.  As far as I can tell FAMSCo hasn't done that.  Additionally, we need to look for new people who aren't burned out or unwilling to reconsider history.
14:20:58 <bexelbie> with regards to elections/regions.  There is no reason FAMSCo has to be elected.  It could be made of regional appointments.  If your region's person doesn't participate there could be penalties like loss of budget, for example.
14:21:30 <bexelbie> I am not saying we have to "burn it all down"
14:21:42 <gnokii> so for one you punish then all?
14:21:44 <bexelbie> but I do think we can give ourselves permission to question everything and figure out how ambassadors needs to work today
14:21:46 <gnokii> cmon
14:22:00 <bexelbie> even if that means we have to do this exercise again in a few years when the times have changed
14:22:33 <bexelbie> I am not advocating group punishment.  The region has an obligation to send a rep .. if they don't the entire region is saying they don't want to participate.  Let the regions figure out how to handle the rep issue
14:22:46 <bexelbie> and this is just one idea .. it is not a requirment
14:22:47 <bexelbie> eof
14:24:19 <mailga> gnokii: replies to bexelbie?
14:25:17 <mailga> potty: any question for bexelbie?
14:25:19 * bexelbie would like to hear replies from anyone - is what I am proposing reasonable?
14:25:19 <gnokii> one of the ideas of fosco was to bring the different groups working together, means most ambassadors for docs, translation and so on and now we torpedoing that idea
14:25:28 <bexelbie> !
14:25:47 <mailga> bexelbie: ahead.
14:25:53 <bexelbie> no, we aren't saying groups shouldn't work together.  We are saying that ambassadors shouldn't have 4 times the voice of all other groups.  Groups in fosco meet as equals and work together
14:26:02 <bexelbie> but just as we wouldn't do lowlevel marketing work in fosco
14:26:07 <bexelbie> we shouldn't do low level amby work either
14:26:10 <bexelbie> eom
14:27:37 <mailga> bexelbie: it seems (to me) you're elevating commops to FOSCo (a sort of).
14:27:42 <mailga> eof
14:27:50 <bexelbie> I am not proposing moving commops up
14:28:07 <gnokii> bexelbie: thats what I saying all the time, I am not the one who always proposes 4 seats for each region
14:28:15 <bexelbie> I think they may need a redefinition.  Even if we use commops as the foundation for FOSCo (which I am not in favor of) we would need a new subgroup to do some of their old duties
14:28:36 <gnokii> I said always, there must be just a person who takes care of the region and he must not come from that region, sometimes thats even better
14:28:38 <bexelbie> gnokii, but having a single rep from ambassadors with no real way of coordinating it seems like a recipe for disaster
14:29:30 <bexelbie> Imagine a FAMSCo made up of 4 regional reps (chosen by the region) and 3 at large seats - that would work (we can obviously futz with the nubmers, this is just an idea)
14:30:43 <bexelbie> eom
14:30:48 <mailga> bexelbie: my POV is different from your. I think that FOSCo and commops can't live together.
14:31:01 <gnokii> aha chosen by the region how shall that work
14:31:02 <bexelbie> mailga, I believe there is definitely overlap that we need to work out
14:31:18 <bexelbie> gnokii, that is up to each region .. push governance to the most local level possible
14:31:26 <gnokii> you ever asked infrastructure if they are willing to make the necessary changes in the election system?
14:31:42 <gnokii> thats totally western thinking
14:31:48 <bexelbie> gnokii, I haven't.  However, I consider that a solvable problem.
14:32:01 <bexelbie> gnokii, perhaps it is western thinking.  But I am happy to help a region design a system that works for them
14:32:09 <bexelbie> honestly, I am also not so sure we have the right number of regions ...
14:33:02 <bexelbie> I believe we need to ask questions and figure out what is going to work today
14:33:10 <bexelbie> not just live with what worked X years ago
14:33:11 <bexelbie> eom
14:35:05 <bexelbie> Did I lose internet connectivity?
14:35:27 <mailga> bexelbie: not you, maybe gnokii and potty :-D
14:35:31 * bexelbie is still in a hostel in Puno, Peru - leaving for my next stop in about 40 min
14:35:42 <potty> you still here bexelbie
14:35:46 <gnokii> npe
14:35:52 <bexelbie> mailga, potty gnokii ty for the confirmation :)
14:36:11 <mailga> potty gnokii other questions?
14:36:14 <potty> mailga: no
14:36:34 <mailga> bexelbie: I have one
14:36:40 <mailga> next steps?
14:38:15 <bexelbie> I am not at a FUDCon for two weeks and have only one trip to make  so I am happy to help with getting the charges written.
14:38:31 <bexelbie> I would love to see someone more involved in Ambassadors take on the first draft of a minimal charge to the new FAMSCo
14:38:48 <bexelbie> I'll look to re-engage Christoph and others around FOSCo
14:39:02 <bexelbie> I just worry that my version of FAMSCo is going to be way away from what is needed but I can try to do it too
14:40:07 <bexelbie> I should be able to make this meeting next week, I am not in the air on the 26th and maybe we can have a draft by then to debate?
14:40:19 <potty> ok
14:40:22 <mailga> bexelbie: next FAmSCo is a consequence of FOSCo.
14:40:23 <bexelbie> mailga, does that answer your questoin (it seemed directed at me)
14:40:30 <bexelbie> mailga, I don't follow
14:40:41 <mailga> yest it was, and it is.
14:41:16 <bexelbie> unrelated, why is there not an email reminder about this meeting?
14:41:44 <mailga> bexelbie: What FOSCo (relate to ambys) is not doing, will be a FAmSCo duty.
14:41:54 <bexelbie> mailga, yes :)
14:42:07 <mailga> bexelbie: yes there is a reminder. In FAmSCo mailing list.
14:42:20 <bexelbie> mailga, I must not be on that list
14:42:29 * bexelbie loves him some more email :P
14:43:24 <mailga> bexelbie: it's a private list, so you can apply and then Christoph, as ML-admin will approve.
14:43:32 <bexelbie> mailga, applying now :)
14:43:46 <bexelbie> this one? famsco@lists.fedoraproject.org
14:44:08 <mailga> bexelbie: if you don't receive any confirm, ping cwickert.
14:44:16 <mailga> yes it is.
14:44:17 <bexelbie> si
14:44:18 <bexelbie> :)
14:44:54 <mailga> bexelbie: areyou going to speak italian? :-D
14:45:02 <bexelbie> mailga, I am hoping that was Spanish :P
14:45:13 <bexelbie> I know about 12 words of Spanish - I have just shown you one :P
14:45:41 <mailga> bexelbie: uh! I don't know how to say yes in Spanish, but in Italian is "si".
14:45:44 <gnokii> next step is simple we have to stop to think in seats and as I always say we have as famsco to look what responsebilities we have and how it can be done from fosco
14:45:45 <potty> Si
14:45:53 <gnokii> said not say
14:45:54 <potty> In Spanish yes is si
14:46:19 <mailga> potty: :-)
14:46:39 <bexelbie> gnokii, I disagree.  I believe that not all duties of FAMSCo are appropriate for FOSCo.  I believe the next step is to divide the FAMSCo duties and then augment FOSCo as needed
14:47:07 <bexelbie> gnokii, but I do agree with you that we need to think about duties not seats
14:47:20 <bexelbie> seats are something we determine once we know what the group will do
14:47:22 <mailga> bexelbie: is it possible set up a FAD to discuss in one/two days all about FOSCo? Seems we are ever stuck.
14:47:53 <bexelbie> a vFAD probably, and in person FAD would not be easy to arrange for sure.  But I have an idea.
14:48:05 <bexelbie> When is the next FAMSCo election scheduled for?
14:48:06 <potty> mailga: why do not think in a vFAD related to famsco dutties?
14:48:27 <bexelbie> potty, I read mailga's statement as being about both ... I may be incorrect though
14:48:38 <potty> bexelbie: ok
14:49:00 <bexelbie> a vFAD would be hard for me before the end of FUDCon APAC
14:49:06 <mailga> bexelbie: I really don't know. AFAIK this FAmSCo should be the last, till FOSCo happens.
14:49:22 <bexelbie> mailga, if this FAMSCo wasn't going to be the last, when are elections?
14:49:41 <bexelbie> I am trying to figure out if we should see if council could fund an in-person FAD around DevConf.cz .. as many folks may already be there
14:49:44 <bexelbie> so it may be cheap
14:49:53 <bexelbie> but we need this decided soon :)
14:50:04 <mailga> bexelbie: /me is checking, don't remember...
14:50:21 <bexelbie> What about a vFAD the week of the 15th of November (that is probably not a Monday ...)
14:50:43 <potty> Nov 15th is Tuesday
14:50:44 <mailga> bexelbie: Over the course of any two consecutive releases the entire membership of the FAmSCo will be subject to elections.
14:50:54 <gnokii> in italian to
14:51:07 <mailga> that's what the page https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAmSCo_elections currently says.
14:52:00 * bexelbie has to drop soon
14:52:02 <mailga> gnokii: ??
14:52:22 <mailga> bexelbie 8  min to the end meeting.
14:52:47 <mailga> let me change the topic to open floor.
14:52:57 <bexelbie> mailga, I think gnokii  was referring to 'si' being Italian as well
14:52:57 <mailga> #topic Open Floor
14:53:16 <bexelbie> let's log some action items?
14:53:34 <bexelbie> #info potential vFAD about FAMSCo/FOSCo week of 15 November
14:53:58 <bexelbie> do we want to wait until then for the next steps, or keep working and use that as a meeting to put the final touches on it?
14:54:58 <mailga> bexelbie: Honestly I'm tired, so for me it's question of putting all together and make it happens.
14:55:13 <bexelbie> mailga, understandable
14:55:22 <bexelbie> I will take point on this and try to have something for review before the vFAD
14:55:35 <bexelbie> I am not making a commitment to next week as I have another issue that is a priority
14:55:41 * bexelbie is stretched a bit thin atm
14:55:57 <gnokii> bexelbie: sorry a vFAD with people that have 12hrs time difference, and then choose a weekday so that I again get not enough sleep
14:56:26 <gnokii> sorry my net is slow, I got now all you messages at once
14:56:41 <mailga> gnokii: when you're tired you're the best! :-D
14:56:44 <bexelbie> gnokii, understood - I am not proposing a specific day or time yet - just a week of time :)
14:56:59 <bexelbie> gnokii, but yes, we need to figure out how to not let anyone suffer too much - hence my thoughts around in person
14:57:11 <bexelbie> quickly, before I drop, where are people located?
14:57:17 <bexelbie> mailga, you're in Italy, right?
14:57:22 <bexelbie> gnokii, Cambodia?
14:57:23 <bexelbie> potty, ??
14:57:32 <mailga> potty LATAM
14:57:39 <gnokii> yes cambodia
14:57:43 <potty> LATAM, Panama
14:57:43 <mailga> mailga: Italy
14:58:05 <mailga> tuanta? APAC, right?
14:58:15 <mailga> cwickert Berlin
14:59:06 <bexelbie> ok, it smells like a FAD around DevConf could be worhtwhile, if we can wait that long
14:59:16 <bexelbie> I'll do some thinking during my 15 hours of flights and 7 hours of layovers
14:59:19 <bexelbie> I have to drop
14:59:21 <bexelbie> cau cau
14:59:49 <mailga> thanks for been here bexelbie we wait for news from you, right?
14:59:55 <potty> ciao bexelbie
15:00:16 <bexelbie> mailga, sounds good
15:00:25 * bexelbie is really away now
15:00:36 <mailga> potty: ciao is italian! Not spanish! spanish is hola!
15:00:51 <potty> i know
15:00:51 <potty> jajaja
15:00:58 <mailga> time to end the meeting. Any question?
15:01:04 <potty> no questions from me
15:01:06 <potty> estoy bien
15:01:15 <mailga> potty: +1
15:02:03 <mailga> I suppose gnokii has connection issues again, so I close the meeting.
15:02:16 <gnokii> nope
15:03:15 <mailga> For any question related to this meeting and the bexelbie proposal, please file a ticket, so we can track the outcoming discussions. Also for the people reding the log.
15:03:40 <mailga> Thanks for been here potty bexelbie and gnokii
15:03:50 <mailga> #endmeeting