14:22:17 <potty> #startmeeting famsco
14:22:17 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Dec  7 14:22:17 2016 UTC.  The chair is potty. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:22:17 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:22:17 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famsco'
14:22:22 * cwickert thought the meeting was in 40 minutes, but anyway
14:22:29 <potty> #topic Roll Call
14:22:36 <cwickert> .fas cwickert
14:22:36 <zodbot> cwickert: cwickert 'Christoph Wickert' <christoph.wickert@gmail.com>
14:22:43 <potty> .hello potty
14:22:44 <zodbot> potty: potty 'Abdel G. Martínez L.' <abdel.g.martinez.l@gmail.com>
14:25:06 <potty> Waiting other members to come...
14:25:22 <cwickert> gnokii: welcome, we are just about to start
14:25:26 <gnokii> .fas gnokii
14:25:27 <zodbot> gnokii: gnokii 'Sirko Kemter' <buergermeister@karl-tux-stadt.de>
14:26:17 <gnokii> Yeah i am bit slow i am on phone have power out laptop is empty
14:26:59 <cwickert> potty: are you able to lead the meeting?
14:27:16 <potty> #chair cwickert
14:27:16 <zodbot> Current chairs: cwickert potty
14:27:36 <cwickert> chair gnokii
14:27:38 <potty> Lead this time, please. I am currently on the phone. Maybe not the best device to lead a meeting.
14:27:38 <cwickert> #chair gnokii
14:27:38 <zodbot> Current chairs: cwickert gnokii potty
14:27:53 <cwickert> haha, gnokii is on the phone, too
14:28:05 <potty> haha
14:28:15 <potty> How about you, cwickert?
14:28:41 <cwickert> potty: I'm fine, thank you, but I have been very busy have not been able to follow up recently
14:28:56 <cwickert> this is why I feel I cannot lead the meeting, I have no clue what's going on
14:29:25 <cwickert> I see a lot of mails from a misconfigured parure instance, but that's probably the council and not FAmSCo
14:29:44 <potty> Current tickets are 407 and 373
14:29:57 <cwickert> .famsco 407
14:29:57 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/407
14:30:06 <potty> And we should decide when to do trac->pagure migration
14:30:45 <cwickert> yes
14:31:06 <cwickert> #topic Planning for new FAmSCo Elections
14:31:19 <cwickert> I'm +1 to that. We are already overdue
14:31:31 <gnokii> Trac is so phone friendly so whats topic
14:32:24 <cwickert> gnokii: see topic :)
14:32:45 <cwickert> I'm +1 to this, we should have new elections ASAP
14:33:10 <gnokii> Yes
14:33:18 <cwickert> we are already overdue, we extended our term to get FOSCo done, but it seems that is not happening any time soon
14:33:49 <cwickert> and frankly speaking, I think we should FOSCo decide it's own fate
14:34:14 <cwickert> For me, the primary duties of the next FAmSCo are:
14:35:08 <cwickert> 1. Get FOSCo bootstrapped. by "bootstrapping" I mean FAmSCo only decides the bare minimum. The governance charta and everything else will be decided by FOSCo itself
14:35:15 <giannisk> .fas giannisk
14:35:16 <zodbot> giannisk: giannisk 'Giannis Konstantinidis' <giannis@konstantinidis.cc>
14:35:20 * giannisk waves.
14:35:24 <cwickert> hi giannisk
14:35:27 <cwickert> #chair giannisk
14:35:27 <zodbot> Current chairs: cwickert giannisk gnokii potty
14:35:44 <gnokii> Thats fun
14:36:07 <cwickert> before we move on: giannisk, I sent you a mail about the pagure instance that keeps mailing me. care to shed some light on this?
14:37:16 <cwickert> giannisk: ?
14:37:34 <giannisk> cwickert: hmm, when was that?
14:37:41 <cwickert> giannisk: a week ago or so
14:37:45 * cwickert looks
14:38:00 <giannisk> cwickert: I haven't noticed anything, could've missed that one
14:38:27 <cwickert> giannisk: November 28th
14:39:07 <cwickert> anyway, get back to me when you know more, no need to delay the meeting
14:39:26 <cwickert> gnokii: can you elaborate your latest statement?
14:39:27 <giannisk> cwickert: Will check again and will let you know, yes
14:39:32 <cwickert> thanks giannisk
14:41:40 <cwickert> ok, while gnokii is typing, I'd like to explain what I meant earlier
14:41:57 <gnokii> I said more then once its not upon us to decide all on a table and then discuss it out. Instead everybody was busy planning seats
14:41:58 <cwickert> we have spent a lot of time on FOSCo and hardly made any progress
14:43:14 <cwickert> gnokii: we are way past this. you are referring to the status before we rebooted the process with the all-hands meeting. that was probably 4 months ago
14:43:36 <cwickert> anyway, I think we wanted far too much
14:43:51 <cwickert> we wanted the perfect FOSCo to save all our FAmSCo problems
14:43:59 <cwickert> and frankly speaking, this is not going to happen
14:44:12 <potty> cwickert: +1
14:45:03 <cwickert> so I suggest we only do the bootstrapping, everything else is up to the members of FOSCo
14:45:14 <cwickert> that should also make gnokii happy
14:45:23 <cwickert> but back to elections
14:45:40 <cwickert> we have to face the fact that the current FAmSCo is hardly operational
14:45:44 <gnokii> Nope as there is one problem more
14:45:59 * cwickert listens
14:46:39 <gnokii> We have to adopt a lot of things that fosco can take over
14:47:36 <potty> !
14:47:57 <cwickert> gnokii: I don't think it will take over
14:48:27 <cwickert> The ambassadors are a group of their own, right?
14:48:51 <cwickert> and as such, they can make their own decisions, they have their own problems and so on
14:49:09 <gnokii> It has to otherwise you make one of the intentions the fpl had with it impossible
14:49:21 <cwickert> imagine we have FOSCo as a joint venture of the ambassadors, marketing, commops and possibly more
14:49:31 <cwickert> now imagine we have a meeting, just like this one
14:50:04 <cwickert> do you think the representatives of commops, marketing etc. want to be bothered with ambassodors talk?
14:50:25 <giannisk> ?
14:50:46 <cwickert> I don't think so. If they feel the meeting of FOSCo itself is not helpful for them, they will never volunteer to be part of it
14:51:07 <cwickert> and that's why I suggest we continue with FAmSCo even if we have FOSCo some day.
14:51:12 <cwickert> first potty, then giannisk
14:51:31 <potty> I think we should only focus on organize the team, their objectives, some procedures and initial tasks (mentorship, reimbursement, release parties). Primer FOSCo members should work on those tasks.
14:51:38 <gnokii> Sorry i dont share your opinion which came quote from a long famsco session at flock. To be honest besides fosco discussions what was really moved from this famsco
14:51:43 <potty> eof
14:52:03 <cwickert> potty: I agree, I would even limit the work even further
14:52:46 <potty> I am on vacations right now, able to resume all of this in a wiki and share it to you by the current ticket on Trac.
14:52:56 <potty> Or in ML
14:52:59 <potty> Eof
14:53:07 <cwickert> ok potty
14:53:23 <cwickert> gnokii: I fail to parse your second sentence.
14:54:12 <gnokii> What have we done just kitals ticket thats all on the end
14:54:53 * cwickert is clueless what gnokii is trying to say
14:55:03 <cwickert> gnokii: use german if you like
14:55:20 <gnokii> I say what has famsco still to do?
14:56:59 <cwickert> gnokii: everything we used to do, FAMA, our guidelines etc. having FAmSCo gives us more independence because we can decide our own fate
14:57:44 <giannisk> and, in addition, FAmSCo is very much needed at all times to support the activities of the ambassadors
14:57:46 <gnokii> We used to do so tell me what we have done this period
14:57:57 <cwickert> giannisk: +1
14:58:33 <cwickert> gnokii: we haven't don't much, that's our fault and that's why the ambassdors are in bad shape right now. But FOSCo is not going to fix this
14:59:04 <cwickert> and that brings us back to the initial topic of elections
14:59:18 <cwickert> we need to have a strong FAmSCo again
14:59:20 <bexelbie> .hello bex
14:59:21 <zodbot> bexelbie: bex 'Brian (bex) Exelbierd' <bex@pobox.com>
14:59:23 * bexelbie was in calls sorry
14:59:26 <gnokii> Nope as we have to fix some things before
14:59:27 <potty> !
15:00:12 <cwickert> and I want this FAmSCo to be active and have a stong mandate to change everything they need to fix our issues. They can burn all our guidelines if it helps, I don't care as long as there is progress
15:00:30 <giannisk> ?
15:00:34 <cwickert> gnokii: so, what to you want to fix and what prevents you from doing it?
15:00:39 <potty> New famsco elections will just bring new fresh ideas to a recurrent problem. Might solve it, might not. But we should give others a try. Btw id this is likely to happen, we should transition them our efforts so the new famsco can improve and finish solving. EOF
15:01:01 <gnokii> You as you enforce all the time your view
15:01:37 <cwickert> gnokii: sorry, I happen to have a real keyboard, thus I can type faster. but you are free to share your ideas and concerns, go ahead.
15:02:20 <cwickert> potty, giannisk: I suggest we don't follow the meeting rules, just talk and see what happens :)
15:02:31 <giannisk> We agreed we would move ahead with new FAmSCo elections, didn't we?
15:02:47 <potty> In fact yes
15:02:54 <potty> This should be not in discussion
15:02:54 <giannisk> Then, why is that I don't see a new round of FAmSCo elections on the Elections page?
15:02:57 <giannisk> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Elections
15:02:59 <potty> Lazy consensus applied
15:03:18 <bexelbie> Did anyone ping jkurik and confirm FAmSCo electoins to him?
15:03:19 <potty> idk
15:03:29 <potty> bexelbie: no
15:03:30 <giannisk> It seems there will be elections for the Council and for FESCo
15:03:40 <potty> bexelbie: are we still able to do ping jkurik?
15:03:54 <bexelbie> potty, only way to find out is to try ... I am hopeful the answer is yes
15:04:02 <potty> Make this an action
15:04:06 <potty> I will ping jkurik
15:04:11 <potty> And open famsco elections
15:04:16 <giannisk> potty++
15:04:17 <zodbot> giannisk: Karma for potty changed to 4 (for the f25 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:04:17 <cwickert> giannisk: you don't see it because you did not take care of it, simple as that. And this is the problem we all are facing
15:04:47 <giannisk> cwickert: I did not take care of it? I guess that's a "we".
15:05:02 <cwickert> giannisk: yes, but you were the one to complain
15:05:13 * giannisk is neither the chair nor vice-chair of FAmSCo anymore.
15:05:22 <giannisk> cwickert: I'm not complaining, I'm merely pointing out an issue.
15:05:28 <cwickert> giannisk: so? that means you cannot do anything?
15:05:32 <giannisk> For the benefit of this committee
15:05:40 <cwickert> ok then
15:05:55 <cwickert> giannisk: are you ok to take over the action item?
15:06:10 <giannisk> cwickert: potty just said above that he will
15:06:48 <cwickert> #action potty to get in touch with jkurik to schedule FAmSCo elections
15:07:04 <cwickert> we all agree on ASAP?
15:07:11 <potty> +1
15:07:15 <giannisk> +1
15:07:28 <cwickert> +1
15:07:33 <cwickert> gnokii: your turn
15:07:35 <gnokii> Asap is not a date
15:08:10 <cwickert> gnokii: but do you trust potty and jkurik to figure out what ASAP means in this context?
15:08:20 <gnokii> For when are fesco council scheduled? Soon is christmas guys
15:08:23 <cwickert> for the record: the nomination phase has just begun
15:08:42 <giannisk> #link https://fedorapeople.org/groups/schedule/f-25/f-25-elections.html
15:08:55 <cwickert> ok, seems we cannot reach a majority here, let's take this to the mailing list
15:09:07 <cwickert> potty: please get in touch with jkurik nevertheless
15:09:26 <giannisk> cwickert: There will be no proper follow-up on the ML
15:09:36 <giannisk> gnokii: Mind explaining why you're blocking this process?
15:09:48 <cwickert> giannisk: probably, but still better than wasting our time here
15:09:51 <bexelbie> gnokii, are you really going to hold up the elections because they are going to send an email today to get it done without promising a non-negatiable date
15:09:56 <bexelbie> you trust them that little?
15:10:09 <giannisk> cwickert: We don't have much time, like you said the nominations period has started already
15:10:20 <gnokii> I block here nothing i just remind that there is soon christmas
15:10:32 <giannisk> gnokii: What does Christmas have to do w/ this?
15:10:32 <bexelbie> gnokii, so please vote, +1 +0 or -1 ...
15:11:16 <giannisk> gnokii: Can you be more specific and prevent using implies?
15:12:10 <cwickert> giannisk: I think we should just go ahead and I think we can count the +1 from the ticket as a mandate to call for elections ASAP. nevertheless I'd like to bring this up on the ML to get more backup
15:12:12 <gnokii> What christmas has to do with that fine lets have elections then from 24th to 31st
15:12:16 <giannisk> s/implies/implyings
15:12:39 <cwickert> gnokii: wrong, please look at the wiki page!
15:12:40 <giannisk> cwickert: +1
15:12:49 <giannisk> cwickert++
15:12:50 <zodbot> giannisk: Karma for cwickert changed to 1 (for the f25 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:13:02 <cwickert> gnokii: elections will take place January 10-16th
15:13:35 <bexelbie> how about we rewrite hte action as "Potty will contact jkurik to get FAmSCo elections scheduled for the current election period which includes FESCo and Council."
15:13:40 <bexelbie> is that better for your gnokii ?
15:14:35 <gnokii> So this is just the question i had and when here somebody is blocking something then giannisk with his as always behavior
15:14:55 <bexelbie> gnokii, stick to your issues and objections and not personal attacks against others please
15:15:39 * cwickert suggests we end this meeting once we have a decision on this
15:16:00 <giannisk> gnokii: I don't really get what you mean, but whatever
15:16:06 <cwickert> gnokii: are you fine with the proposed wording from bexelbie?
15:16:18 <gnokii> I take here only something personal that when i ask for the timing i being accused to block something
15:19:07 <bexelbie> gnokii, are you in favor of moving forward with FAmSCo Elections in this cycle if possible? yes or no.  Be aware the council has adjusted the cycle timing to avoid the 4th quarter holidays.
15:19:12 <cwickert> gnokii: simple question: would it help you if we changed the action item? if notm how would you phrase it?
15:20:36 <gnokii> So they adjust because of holidays and i get questioned was christmas has to do with?
15:21:14 <cwickert> gnokii: here is the schedule
15:21:24 <cwickert> December 06 - December 12: Nomination period open (closes promptly at 23:59:00 UTC on December 12th)
15:21:25 <gnokii> Its not about how to rephrase its about the timing
15:21:33 <cwickert> December 13 - January 09: "Campaign" period starts. Individual blog posts, etc. encouraged.
15:21:40 <cwickert> January 10 - January 16: Voting Open (closes promptly at 23:59:00 UTC on January 16th)
15:21:41 <cwickert> January 17: Results announcement
15:22:30 <bexelbie> gnokii, if you're going to propose an off cycle election, please put forward a specific proposal or vote for hte current proposal to join the larger fedora project cycle of elections that is going on at this time
15:22:55 <cwickert> gnokii: people have thought hard about this schedule and I'm pretty sure they are aware of Christmas. So are there any objections of using this schedule for the FAmSCo elections if jkurik thinks it's ok?
15:23:31 <gnokii> See thats what i mean we would have to steal 3 days from it or run into christmas
15:24:17 <bexelbie> gnokii, that is not understandable to me - why do we have to choose a different schedule? Christmas is not impacted by the one the council chose
15:24:18 <cwickert> all right, this does not lead anywhere
15:24:23 <bexelbie> +1 cwickert
15:24:57 <gnokii> Bex there is nomination already open
15:25:09 <cwickert> gnokii: yes, we said this 20 minutes ago
15:25:26 <bexelbie> gnokii, if we get listed right now we can even have nominations open for this body
15:25:51 <bexelbie> or you can demand an off cycle election and we will have to negotiate for when it can be held
15:25:56 <bexelbie> probably delaying everything by at least a month
15:26:54 <gnokii> Do whatever you want
15:26:55 <giannisk> .famsco 407
15:26:55 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/407
15:27:24 <giannisk> Already three positive votes, approval based on lazy consensus, plus one more positive vote from cwickert during this meeting.
15:28:05 <gnokii> Giannisk you are way out of yes line
15:28:45 <cwickert> ok, here is my suggestion: potty will talk to jkurik to figure out the details. if jkurik thinks we can join the schedule, even if that means cutting the nomination peroid or so, we do it.
15:29:01 <giannisk> cwickert: +1, thank you
15:29:02 <cwickert> and if somebody wants a different schedule, then that person needs to make a proposal
15:29:21 <cwickert> gnokii: that would be you I think
15:30:17 <cwickert> gnokii: would that work for you?
15:30:18 <gnokii> Why because i want to know the time frame
15:30:40 <gnokii> Enough insults for today
15:30:44 <cwickert> gnokii: we told you the timeframe. If you don't like it, propose a new one
15:30:48 <giannisk> gnokii: https://fedorapeople.org/groups/schedule/f-25/f-25-elections.html
15:31:08 <giannisk> Shall we move on?
15:31:18 <cwickert> #action gnokii to propose an alternative schedule for standalone FAmSCo elections in case we cannot reach consensus
15:31:24 <gnokii> Yes  and why is that guy telling me my vote is not needed
15:31:42 <bexelbie> gnokii, you've been explicitly asked for your vote several times
15:31:51 <bexelbie> gnokii, either vote or stop complaining that you didn't vote
15:32:07 <bexelbie> the count is at 4/7 right now based on the ticket and cwickert
15:32:08 <gnokii> I said already if we can do!
15:32:17 <bexelbie> gnokii, cast a proper vote
15:32:20 <bexelbie> that is +1 0 or -1
15:32:21 <cwickert> gnokii: 3 weeks ago we had 3 +1's in the ticket. I just gave mine. I think we can safely assume that everybody wants elections to happen ASAP.
15:32:24 <bexelbie> so it is clear to everyone
15:32:40 <cwickert> s/everybody/at least a majority of 4/7
15:33:26 <giannisk> cwickert: 4/6 even, lbazan stepped down
15:33:54 <gnokii> +1
15:34:01 <cwickert> thank you
15:34:07 <cwickert> I think that's it for today
15:34:15 <cwickert> another hour well wasted
15:34:25 <giannisk> :)
15:34:52 <cwickert> the new FAmSCo really needs to think about their communication channels. I'm afraid that IRC is not useful here.
15:34:52 <gnokii> Giannisk you are the waster
15:35:16 <cwickert> any objections to closing the meeting?
15:35:26 * cwickert will write some mails to the list
15:35:49 <giannisk> gnokii: The subscriber you've called has probably switched off his phone, please try again later
15:36:09 <cwickert> #endmeeting