14:00:06 <stickster> #startmeeting Workstation WG
14:00:06 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Jan 16 14:00:06 2017 UTC.  The chair is stickster. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:00:06 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:00:06 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation_wg'
14:00:10 <stickster> #meetingname workstation
14:00:10 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation'
14:00:14 <stickster> #topic Roll call!
14:00:17 <stickster> .hello pfrields
14:00:20 <zodbot> stickster: pfrields 'Paul W. Frields' <stickster@gmail.com>
14:01:33 * mcatanzaro present thanks to stickster
14:01:59 <stickster> mcatanzaro: FYI, I fixed the calendar entry and put in a reminder that will go out a couple days ahead on the list
14:02:04 <mcatanzaro> Set my alarm, got up early just for this, and still managed to forget....
14:02:09 <mcatanzaro> Thanks stickster
14:02:13 <kalev> morning
14:03:00 * stickster waits a minute or two for stragglers
14:03:22 <stickster> #chair mcatanzaro kalev
14:03:22 <zodbot> Current chairs: kalev mcatanzaro stickster
14:04:37 <stickster> Also, I confess I goofed... didn't put agenda together for the list. :-( Let's blame it on vacation lag from new year
14:04:55 <mcatanzaro> I had a few suggestions for the agenda
14:06:07 <mcatanzaro> (a) SELinux still breaking coredumpctl (b) MP3 installation doesn't work (c) (just considered this) hide the GRUB screen when Fedora is the only OS
14:06:52 <stickster> mcatanzaro: (a) is right on point, we did need to follow up on that. (b) I noticed over holiday and glad you brought it up
14:06:58 <kalev> I just spent all morning working on b, should be fixed now
14:07:04 <kalev> just rolling a gnome-software release with it
14:07:06 <mcatanzaro> Also, is ryan here? If so he gets to go first, his wallpaper topic has been pending for a while
14:07:10 <stickster> kalev: wonderful, you are a champ
14:07:18 <mcatanzaro> kalev: OK that simplifies things :)
14:07:18 <stickster> mcatanzaro: I'm not sure -- it's midnight in BNE
14:07:30 <mcatanzaro> (ryanlerch?)
14:07:36 <stickster> kalev: let's hit that one real quick while we wait.
14:07:42 <mcatanzaro> At least he was excited that we moved the meeting time to not 2 AM :)
14:07:44 <stickster> #topic MP3 installation
14:08:02 <stickster> kalev: Tell us what you found was going on and how you addressed it
14:08:30 <kalev> so there were two things
14:09:21 <kalev> one of the issues was that gnome-software incorrectly rejected all packages that didn't have an appdata file
14:09:33 <kalev> even though it should show them in the codec install view
14:09:46 <kalev> I fixed that now in master and just rolling a 3.22 release as well with the fix
14:10:05 <kalev> and the other issue is that the mp3 codec is missing an appdata file and because of that doesn't show up very well still
14:10:14 <kalev> the second issue still needs fixing
14:10:47 * kalev takes a screenshot quickly.
14:11:40 <kalev> https://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-software/commit/?id=5fcf4144a16cea8aac3cf80c4a76b54e0b2dba80
14:11:43 <kalev> https://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-software/commit/?id=054d7a3270110dda74b14d34a9e6e45b3af9a20e
14:11:46 <kalev> are the fixes upstream
14:12:08 <mcatanzaro> Great
14:12:21 <stickster> So fair to call this "in progress" but on the way to being fixed, which is great. I feel like this probably should have shown up in testing, which can be tricky unless done on a clean system somehow
14:12:54 <mcatanzaro> stickster: Sounds like a perfect candidate for OpenQA
14:12:57 <mclasen_> sorry I'm late
14:13:00 <stickster> we're probably lucky that no one has thrown mud in our collective eye about this not working although we announced it :-D
14:13:07 <mclasen_> .hello mclasen
14:13:09 <zodbot> mclasen_: mclasen 'Matthias Clasen' <mclasen@redhat.com>
14:13:15 <stickster> #chair mclasen_
14:13:15 <zodbot> Current chairs: kalev mcatanzaro mclasen_ stickster
14:13:34 <stickster> good morning Matthias... we were talking about how kalev is saving the day for MP3 decoder installation
14:13:40 <stickster> kalev++
14:13:40 <zodbot> stickster: Karma for kalev changed to 2 (for the f25 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:13:54 <kalev> and screenshots!
14:13:55 <kalev> https://kalev.fedorapeople.org/gnome-software-mp3-1.png
14:13:57 <kalev> https://kalev.fedorapeople.org/gnome-software-mp3-2.png
14:14:04 <kalev> ^^ is how it looks now without the appdata fixes
14:16:21 <stickster> Oh, are there more coming? I was holding in case that was so
14:16:40 <kalev> nope, EOF from me
14:17:12 <stickster> kalev: and you're dealing with the missing appdata for the decoder, right?
14:17:17 <kalev> yep
14:17:20 <stickster> #info kalev has fixed issue in gnome-software, release rolling shortly; mp3 codec needs an appdata file, will be fixed & reissued soon
14:17:26 <stickster> kalev: Thank you, great work :-)
14:17:33 <stickster> Anything else on this?
14:17:54 <mcatanzaro> Not much else to discuss. "kalev fixed everything"
14:18:00 <stickster> exactly
14:18:03 <stickster> #topic SELinux and coredumpctl
14:18:41 <mcatanzaro> So the problem here is SELinux still prevents systemd from setting core rlimit, so it never creates any core dumps, and coredumpctl is completely broken.
14:19:03 <stickster> So a not-too-oldie, but a goodie here. I need to plunge back into my email to check, but I seem to recall someone from SELinux camp did get back with us willing to discuss
14:19:16 <mcatanzaro> Before the holiday break stickster mailed the SELinux devs to try to generate some interest in the bug and emphasize that it was important to us
14:19:56 <stickster> As fate would have it I'll be in Brno during the time of the next meeting, and I might be able to grab someone from that team to get assistance
14:20:31 <mcatanzaro> That would be great
14:20:40 <mcatanzaro> (I sent one additional reminder on my own in early January. I don't immediately spot it in my sent mail folder but it just a short polite reminder.)
14:21:04 <mcatanzaro> Anyway, stickster's last mail helped a bit in that one of the devs looked at the bug, committed something, but it didn't fix the bug and he hasn't looked at it again.
14:21:10 <stickster> Lukaš Vrabec was the guy who responded from SELinux team
14:21:12 <mcatanzaro> Yes
14:21:32 * stickster pings the bug
14:22:45 <stickster> So I'll be happy to find Lukas if he's in Brno, I'll be in that office by Jan 25
14:22:52 <mcatanzaro> OK, great
14:23:05 <stickster> ideally we could do this without f2f :-) but sometimes it's helpful to be able to explain the importance
14:23:20 <mcatanzaro> f2f?
14:23:29 <stickster> sorry, face to face. :-)Also I have no idea if there's still a lurking issue we'd n
14:23:32 <mcatanzaro> Anyway "revisit at next meeting" sounds like a good plan
14:23:32 <stickster> oops
14:23:50 <stickster> Also I have no idea if there's still a lurking issue we'd need anything further from the systemd team, and some of them are there as well
14:24:17 <stickster> *nod. That reminds me mcatanzaro, I won't be able to chair at that meeting because I'll be on a train and likely without connection
14:24:25 <stickster> This is Monday January 30
14:24:42 <stickster> #action stickster ping BZ for SELinux issue
14:25:04 <stickster> #action stickster talk to lvrabec while in Brno, and also see if anything needed from systemd
14:25:16 <mcatanzaro> I also wrote a different version of the reminder mail that I have not sent, where I say coredumpctl is more important to us than SELinux (I want them both, but I want coredumpctl more ;) and threaten to petition Council to allow us to drop SELinux if it's not fixed. I figure sending that should be our very last resort.
14:25:46 <mcatanzaro> stickster: If you're on a train, then revisiting at the next meeting may be difficult... how about you send a progress report to desktop list instead?
14:25:49 <stickster> yeah, very last, since I think the Council will be ticked off at us for suggesting it :-D
14:26:04 <stickster> mcatanzaro: agreed, I'll follow up to list before the meeting
14:26:34 <mcatanzaro> (But TBH, if it breaks our priority features and the developers are not responsive, it's something we should be prepared to do. As a last resort.)
14:26:35 <linuxmodder> .fas linuxmodder
14:26:37 <zodbot> linuxmodder: linuxmodder 'Corey W Sheldon' <sheldon.corey@openmailbox.org>
14:26:46 <linuxmodder> in two meetigns ping if needed
14:27:14 <stickster> OK, anything else on this topic?
14:27:18 <mcatanzaro> Not from me
14:28:30 <stickster> So... we probably need to talk about branding stuff, but frankly that seems to hinge on some additional discussion I haven't had with mclasen, cschalle, others yet... so I'm fine if we want to dive into this idea about GRUB2 hiding. mclasen_, anything you wanted to add?
14:28:57 <mclasen_> no, I don't have anything to add right now
14:29:01 <linuxmodder> mcatanzaro,  or kick the devs in the arse till they help /comply selinux is a show stopper imo
14:29:02 <stickster> (I failed to get an agenda together, my auto-TODO pooped out over vacation so I forgot... won't happen again)
14:29:43 <mcatanzaro> GRUB2 is *lightly* tied in with branding, in that it would be really nice for our GRUB theme to match our plymouth theme to match the gray noise background we have in gdm.
14:29:47 <stickster> #topic GRUB screen suggestions
14:29:53 <mcatanzaro> But the more important issue is it's confusing users
14:30:13 <mclasen_> another very old battle...
14:30:14 <mcatanzaro> I keep seeing topics like "I installed Fedora but it somehow installed twice"
14:30:40 <mcatanzaro> Or the slightly better-educated user variant of that, where the user gets confused after the first kernel update: https://www.reddit.com/r/Fedora/comments/5o0m9i/there_are_now_2_fedora_options_rescue_mode_when/?utm_name=Fedora
14:30:47 <stickster> I haven't seen a lot of those topics on Facebook groups or Twitter where we see a lot of new users... but I don't doubt it could happen
14:31:26 <mcatanzaro> There's one on reddit every week or so. And I think I saw one fly by on Google+ not so long ago. Probably it's a small percentage of users who get confused, but it's a bad user experience regardless.
14:31:45 <stickster> It's not pretty, that's for sure
14:31:50 * mclasen_ never reboots to avoid the augly
14:32:03 <linuxmodder> mclasen_,  not sure what you mean by matching it ?
14:32:16 <linuxmodder> as in like a grub-customizer color change globally?
14:32:20 <mclasen_> you're confusing me
14:32:31 <mcatanzaro> We have this mockup for the GRUB theme (scroll down): https://raw.githubusercontent.com/gnome-design-team/gnome-mockups/master/system-lock-login-boot/boot-options-alt.png
14:32:41 <mclasen_> but the ideal case for the grub menu is to be hidden
14:32:46 <mcatanzaro> (There are also plymouth mockups: https://wiki.gnome.org/Design/OS/BootOptions)
14:33:05 <mcatanzaro> The mockups call for the GRUB screen to be hidden if Fedora is the only OS, and displayed only if there are multiple OSes
14:33:20 <stickster> mcatanzaro: If I'm not mistaken, GRUB does allow you to have sub-menus, right? So one could choose Fedora 25 and then see "Boot" or "Other options" (with older kernels, rescue, etc.)?
14:33:34 <mcatanzaro> If displayed, Fedora should only be listed once. Rescue kernel or kernel switching would only be available for advanced users from the GRUB command line editor.
14:34:09 <mcatanzaro> I'm not sure about the technical capabilities, if we could use submenus or not. If so, that would certainly be an option.
14:34:20 <mcatanzaro> Not too picky about that!
14:35:07 <mcatanzaro> So it's really two separate tasks: (a) hide GRUB if only one OS is installed, like Ubuntu does, (b) change the menu structure so that Fedora only appears once (or so that the other entries are hidden away in a submenu)
14:35:24 <linuxmodder> stickster, yes it does
14:35:26 <mclasen_> what I really want is some form of BLS support that lets us handle all of this in the control-center
14:35:30 <stickster> mcatanzaro: kernel switching from the command line editor only? That seems like a no-go to me. When a kernel goes wrong on someone's hardware, it would be foolish to assume they'd be able to edit on the command line to get an older kernel.
14:35:31 <mcatanzaro> Do we agree it's a desirable goal? And if so, who can make it happen. ;)
14:35:33 <mclasen_> instead of cramming ui bits into a boot loader
14:36:22 <mcatanzaro> stickster: Yeah that's the argument against doing this. The design counterargument is: don't release updates that break the OS!
14:37:11 <mcatanzaro> Using a submenu structure, if possible, would maybe help reconcile those goals, but I'm not sure if it's possible. Anyway.
14:37:12 <stickster> mcatanzaro: the counterargument, unfortunately, would rely on us having either (1) control of H/W deploys, or (2) an incredibly broad range of H/W to do testing, and the people to do it all
14:37:56 <kalev> I guess if we're rebasing the kernel in released fedora versions, it probably also means that it needs multiple entries in grub
14:37:58 <stickster> So I think we have to come up with a reasonable submenu approach that's simple enough to help achieve the "don't confuse people at the start" goal, while acknowledging that at times, people will need to find those other options
14:37:58 <cschalle> sorry for beign late
14:38:06 <stickster> #chair cschalle
14:38:06 <zodbot> Current chairs: cschalle kalev mcatanzaro mclasen_ stickster
14:38:55 <mcatanzaro> I guess first step here is to figure out if submenus are even possible.
14:39:09 <stickster> I do agree that a simpler initial display for GRUB makes sense, and that it be a better match with the rest of the product theming
14:40:15 <linuxmodder> stickster,  mcatanzaro  in /etc/default/grub   enable_submenu=true \n disable_recovery=false would not add too much and allow this I'd think no?
14:40:40 <linuxmodder> hardcoding the bg color/image tho may be more fun
14:40:47 <mcatanzaro> linuxmodder: Maybe? :)
14:40:55 <mcatanzaro> I'd like to see what it looks like!
14:41:07 <linuxmodder> that is how I have mine set but I regularly test kopji kernels
14:41:10 <linuxmodder> koji*
14:41:12 <stickster> s/th like that, I would think. The feature seems to exist upstream. https://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/html_node/submenu.html
14:41:32 <mcatanzaro> Note it's not a background color, it's indeed an image (noise). And it requires a pixel-perfect transition to plymouth and then to gdm....
14:41:40 <mcatanzaro> Or as close to perfect as we can get
14:41:42 <linuxmodder> next boot I'll snap a pic from phone and share with ml if you want
14:41:48 <mcatanzaro> That could be a challenge
14:41:53 <stickster> mcatanzaro: oof. isn't there mode switching that happens in there?
14:41:57 <mcatanzaro> That would be great, thanks linuxmodder!
14:42:06 <stickster> "challenge" sounds optimistic :-D
14:42:13 <linuxmodder> mcatanzaro,  so the noise and is a sprite of sorts ?
14:42:16 <mcatanzaro> stickster: Not sure about the technical details, but that sounds right. Might not be possible.
14:42:18 <linuxmodder> but on grub itself
14:42:42 <mcatanzaro> linuxmodder: The noise background we use in gdm is actually a png I think.
14:42:49 <stickster> mcatanzaro: I admit, I don't know much about the video stuff happening in that transition. halfline probably does, though
14:43:28 <stickster> I believe we *used* to have a graphic in the background for GRUB, but it was a restricted format, maybe 8-bit color?
14:43:43 <stickster> This would have been around Fedora 9 or 10 maybe
14:43:52 <linuxmodder> ah that static looking image?
14:44:15 <mcatanzaro> A related topic is plymouth. One of the Fedora designers created an awesome mockup for plymouth boot that includes both Fedora logo and GNOME gray noise background, and looks way better than the current bootsplash. At least, I think it includes the noise background... I'm having trouble searching my mail folder. :)
14:44:18 <stickster> I think it included a logo. It was a little garish compared to how GNOME looks now.
14:45:04 <mcatanzaro> mattdm was excited for this too. But translating a mockup into a plymouth theme is hard work, and I'm not sure anybody is working on it.
14:45:16 <stickster> mcatanzaro: ^ sorry, I'm not referring to the mockup there -- I was referring to the old GRUB graphic
14:45:38 <cschalle> got a link to the mockup?
14:46:03 <mcatanzaro> cschalle: Still searching through my mail, it was on desktop@ but I don't remember when. Within the past few months.
14:48:35 <mcatanzaro> #link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6n-2t9aUoM%C2%A0%3F
14:48:48 <stickster> ha, wow
14:48:50 <mcatanzaro> The mockup doesn't include the noise background, but I *think* it would still look good on top of it
14:49:59 <cschalle> nie
14:50:01 <cschalle> nice
14:50:02 <mcatanzaro> I wrote "The trick is making it look good during a boot process that can take an unknown amount of time. (Probably we would need to run the animation once quickly like that, then stop animating until boot completes?) And turning it into a Plymouth theme. And handling offline updates." https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/7ZD5BCD7S4UPT7YPJIE4MNX6S3VPCSHA/
14:50:07 <mcatanzaro> Maybe it could pulse or something after the animation
14:51:09 <stickster> The boot process does have a progress indicator, so there could be a fill bar too
14:51:16 <stickster> er, s/too/instead of pulsing/
14:51:25 <cschalle> well definetly worth providing to the branding task force which we should hopefully get established soon
14:51:29 <stickster> ha, "PLUS LET'S HAVE IT BLINK"
14:51:36 <stickster> *nod
14:51:39 <mcatanzaro> We don't want it to go slow and choppy if boot is going slow, so probably don't want to tie it to boot progress. openSUSE made that mistake a few years ago, ruined a bootsplash that was otherwise insanely good.
14:51:59 <stickster> agreed. It should be either "I'm finished booting" or "I'm starting to boot"
14:52:23 <stickster> anyway, probably better for designers to figure this part out.
14:52:36 * mclasen_ just not convinced a boot splash is that important
14:52:38 <mclasen_> I see it maybe once a month
14:53:52 <mcatanzaro> #link https://youtu.be/x0Eeh-S2voQ?t=10
14:54:24 <mcatanzaro> mclasen_: The rest of us turn off our computers on occasion. It's not the most important thing but it's about making a great first impression.
14:54:43 <mcatanzaro> Once logged in, our desktop is gorgeous... but that's not the first thing users see
14:55:06 <mclasen_> but is it the thing that will pacify those concerned about branding fedora ? we already have a nice bootsplash...
14:55:07 * stickster notes he needs to wrap up here in about 1 minute to kick off another meeting.
14:55:17 <mclasen_> anyway, thats for the 'task force' to decide
14:56:19 <stickster> #info cschalle mclasen_ stickster to include bootsplash/plymouth in branding discussions, this mockup is a nice reference
14:56:22 <mcatanzaro> mclasen_: I don't think it's very nice. It's decent during startup, pretty terrible for updates. The mockup shows it's possible to do better.
14:56:56 * stickster notes that mockup is probably a blender animation... we'd still have to see if it's possible to translate to plymouth
14:57:26 <stickster> OK, I need to wrap up here -- anything else before we close?
14:57:29 <mcatanzaro> Yeah, could be hard, but the openSUSE link above shows you can do make plymouth look really fancy... anyway, thanks for coming everyone
14:57:40 <stickster> *nod
14:57:52 <stickster> agreed, thanks for being here for the first meeting of 2017 :-)
14:57:55 <stickster> #endmeeting