15:02:06 <robyduck> #startmeeting FAmSCo 2017-03-15
15:02:06 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Mar 15 15:02:06 2017 UTC.  The chair is robyduck. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:02:06 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:02:06 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famsco_2017-03-15'
15:02:15 <robyduck> #meetingname famsco
15:02:15 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famsco'
15:02:24 <robyduck> #topic Roll Call
15:02:49 <robyduck> .hello robyduck
15:02:50 <zodbot> robyduck: robyduck 'Robert Mayr' <robyduck@gmail.com>
15:02:53 <jonatoni> .fas jonatoni
15:02:54 <zodbot> jonatoni: jonatoni 'Jona Azizaj' <jonaazizaj@gmail.com>
15:03:13 <mailga> fas mailga
15:03:22 <robyduck> #chair fredlima jonatoni mailga itamarjp
15:03:22 <zodbot> Current chairs: fredlima itamarjp jonatoni mailga robyduck
15:03:23 * jwf waves
15:03:34 <robyduck> hi jwf
15:03:40 <itamarjp> .fas itamarjp
15:03:40 <zodbot> itamarjp: itamarjp 'Itamar Reis Peixoto' <itamar@ispbrasil.com.br>
15:03:41 <fredlima> .fas fredlima
15:03:43 <zodbot> fredlima: fredlima 'Frederico Henrique Gonçalves Lima' <fred@fredericolima.com.br>
15:03:44 <mailga> .fas mailga
15:03:46 <zodbot> mailga: mailga 'Gabriele Trombini' <g.trombini@gmail.com>
15:04:03 <bexelbie> .hello bex
15:04:05 <zodbot> bexelbie: bex 'Brian (bex) Exelbierd' <bex@pobox.com>
15:04:21 <robyduck> bexelbie: o/
15:05:02 <robyduck> #topic Updates for mentor's and ambassador's status
15:05:04 <bexelbie> o/ alle
15:05:18 <fredlima> hi bexelbie
15:05:23 <robyduck> ok so these are quick updates, I don't think we are through yet
15:05:34 <robyduck> giannisk is not around, so jonatoni any updates?
15:05:55 <jonatoni> so robyduck helped me to run the ambassadors script
15:05:59 <robyduck> this is https://pagure.io/famsco/issue/417
15:06:41 <jonatoni> now I have the svg file and I'm preparing the email to send to the ambassadors
15:06:52 <jwf> .hello jflory7
15:06:53 <zodbot> jwf: jflory7 'Justin W. Flory' <jflory7@gmail.com>
15:06:57 <jonatoni> and I need to do another script to send them an email
15:07:13 <jonatoni> I mean to those that were active the last 18 month
15:07:34 <robyduck> svg?
15:08:19 <jonatoni> sorry csv file
15:08:51 <robyduck> you should have a cvs and can just order the nicknames. Make a file and you will be able to add the email alias easilz
15:09:29 <robyduck> csv that is
15:09:40 <jonatoni> yeah, but I was thinking that I have ~500 emails to send for example
15:09:46 <jonatoni> and I cant do it manually
15:09:58 <robyduck> uuh?
15:10:23 <robyduck> jonatoni: how many people were active last time more than 18 months ago?
15:10:29 <robyduck> 500??
15:10:52 <jonatoni> no was just I guess, I haven't checked them yet
15:11:02 <jonatoni> s/I/a
15:11:32 <robyduck> ah ok
15:12:38 <jwf> If the current script doesn't send email, jonatoni and I were talking about a way to automate mass email with the FAS API / SMTP service like SendGrid
15:12:50 <robyduck> I did it last time by copying pasting all addresses, no script
15:13:30 <robyduck> all addresses in CCN, not to: and not CC:
15:13:56 <jonatoni> yes
15:13:57 <robyduck> and used just sed to add the @fedoraproject.org
15:15:08 <robyduck> jonatoni: if you don't mind I can help you with that, then you can send out the email
15:15:39 <jonatoni> yeah sure, that would help me a lot
15:15:41 <jonatoni> thanks
15:15:57 <robyduck> we should mention people have 2 weeks to make some activity (login to one of our servers), and we will un the script again at the end of march
15:16:28 <robyduck> jonatoni: sure thing, then let's move on if you have nothing else to add to this?
15:16:31 <robyduck> any other?
15:16:39 <jonatoni> eof
15:17:27 <robyduck> giannisk is not around today, let's see if we can have an offline update in the ticket about mentors activity
15:18:16 <robyduck> before discussing the mentoring process, can we decide aboout the ML ticket?
15:18:34 <robyduck> that should be quicker (hopefully)
15:19:03 <robyduck> #topic Take final decision whether open/set private/whatever the FAmSCo mailing list
15:19:13 <robyduck> #link https://pagure.io/famsco/issue/419
15:20:03 <jwf> I missed getting my response in the ticket (probably not worth finishing now), but Brian's suggestion seemed reasonable to me.
15:20:07 * robyduck tried to put together some pros/cons on that, and bex added his thought too
15:20:11 <robyduck> https://pagure.io/famsco/issue/419#comment-430670
15:20:53 <robyduck> jwf: to take FAmSCo discussions completely to the ambassadors list?
15:21:18 <robyduck> and set FAmSCo as private?
15:22:19 <jwf> I really think making the discussions and activity with FAmSCo more accessible is important.
15:22:28 <jwf> So long as the private list is strongly avoided whenever possible
15:22:34 <jwf> Similar to the private Council mailing list.
15:22:58 <robyduck> jwf: private lists are used *only* in special topics
15:23:39 <jwf> So long as that is the condition (and maybe written somewhere too since all seats can change, unlike in Council), I think it makes sense.
15:23:45 <robyduck> jwf: so,, do you think that would improve communication between FAmSCo and ambassadors?
15:25:03 <jwf> robyduck: So long as FAmSCo discussion does actually happen on the public list, then yes. I think it would be a meaningful to better involve and inform a wider community to FAmSCo's activities and give them a platform to also have input if they have something to contribute. I'm personally favorable to two public lists, but I think I'm few in that opinion.
15:25:24 <jwf> Sorry for slow responses, a little distracted offline
15:26:18 <robyduck> jwf: well, two public lists is what we shoudl avoid IMO
15:26:20 <bexelbie> I am curious what business of FAmSCo you think is not important to Ambassadors jwf?
15:26:36 <bexelbie> as that is what would be on public ML #2
15:27:17 <jwf> robyduck: Right, which is why I'm not holding to that. I also like bexelbie's proposal in the ticket.
15:28:14 <robyduck> ok, we can start a voting here but we don't have a valid quorum today AFAICS
15:28:33 <jwf> bexelbie: My original motivation behind two public lists was that it allows a level of choice for Ambassadors to whether they want to involve themselves with FAmSCo activity and discussion, whereas on the Ambassador list, it's a list of maybe 700-1000 people. I wasn't sure if some of them might have an issue with the extra noise, but then I also realized that if FAmSCo activity feels like extra noise as an Ambassador, they might not be the most
15:28:34 <jwf> active Ambassador either.
15:28:48 <giannisk> .fas giannisk
15:28:50 <zodbot> giannisk: giannisk 'Giannis Konstantinidis' <giannis@konstantinidis.cc>
15:28:53 * giannisk waves at everyone
15:29:03 <robyduck> aha, so we have a quorum now
15:29:07 <robyduck> hi giannisk
15:29:34 <robyduck> we are going to vote about the FAmSCo ML proposal, let me rephrase that
15:30:05 <robyduck> final proposal for ticket 419: Do you want to take all FAmSCo discussions to the ambassadors list and set FAmSCo ML as private, for only specific and sensible topics?
15:31:00 <robyduck> this is thought to improve communication between FAmSCo and ambassadors (as the ambassadors list is also invite only)
15:31:21 <robyduck> I am +1 on this
15:31:31 <mailga> +1
15:31:37 <jonatoni> +1
15:31:46 <giannisk> -1
15:32:04 <giannisk> We cannot take all FAmSCo issues on the ambassadors ML, simply because we risk dropping the ball
15:32:33 <fredlima> -1
15:32:36 <giannisk> I'd agree we can however take important FAmSCo issues to the ambassadors ML, which would require important feedback from the majority of the ambassadors
15:33:10 <robyduck> giannisk: the ambassador list is not so noisy, and we are discussing mainly tickets in the list
15:33:20 <robyduck> which are public
15:33:25 <giannisk> What I'm afraid of here, is the fact we risk making communications and decision making less effective
15:33:51 <giannisk> robyduck: The ambassador ML in fact, gets extremely noisy when it comes to decision making
15:33:53 <robyduck> and why less effective?
15:34:31 <giannisk> robyduck: Imagine dozens of replies over a single thread, regularly involving passive aggressiveness among community members
15:34:38 <giannisk> It's what we've seen several times so far
15:34:39 <robyduck> giannisk: yes, true. But it is also wrong to decide something in a dark corner and get this out to all others when it is already done, or?
15:34:55 <giannisk> I'd personally avoid having "fights" over the ambassador ML
15:34:59 <bexelbie> giannisk, passive aggressiveness is bad and should be stopped.  Ambassador input should be welcome, with FAmSCo bringing it to a close as appropraite
15:35:20 <robyduck> giannisk: right, but should we avoid that by keeping communication less effective?
15:36:26 <robyduck> giannisk: I see your point, and it's true, but how many things do we discuss over the ML? And how many in the tickets?
15:37:00 <giannisk> bexelbie, robyduck: I totally get your points also, but I'm personally not yet convinced whether we can succeed in effectively facilitating those discussions over the ambassador ML
15:37:06 <robyduck> I saw a lot of noise when we changed the processes, but what came out was also good
15:37:24 <bexelbie> giannisk, and for that reason we shouldn't try?  If we don't try, how will we ever know we are "ready"
15:38:18 <giannisk> bexelbie: That's true and I was also considering the same in fact. We could possibly try this as "pilot program", yes.
15:38:51 <bexelbie> I am not aware of any other groups that have two mailing lists, one for members and one for "leaders"
15:38:55 <bexelbie> are there any others in Fedora?
15:39:42 <giannisk> bexelbie: None that I'm aware of
15:40:02 <robyduck> not off-hand, but members and leaders should always find the best communication
15:40:07 <bexelbie> Is there something about Ambassadors that inherently means it needs to be different?
15:41:02 <robyduck> the main change would be to change notifications in pagure and send them out to the ambassadors list instead of the FAmSCo ML. We are actually not discussing so much on the FAmSCo list
15:41:11 <giannisk> bexelbie: The major difference I see is, the ambassadors sub-project is much larger compared to several other ones.
15:41:27 <gnokii> no comes this nonsense again
15:41:35 <giannisk> Which means we need to be a bit more careful when it comes to facilitating discussions between members.
15:42:10 <bexelbie> gnokii, please be civil
15:43:52 <gnokii> bexelbie I am, but why you think openess on the ambassador list will change anything as long famsco relativates concerns of ambassadors and ignores them nothing will change
15:43:53 <giannisk> I'm willing to explore new ways, but I ask that we should please keep some things in mind: a) try and have some tips/rules/whatever for ambassadors that wish to chime into topics to provide feedback effectively, b) have a plan to deal with non-effective communications, especially when they get out of hand (e.g. passive aggressiveness)
15:44:36 <bexelbie> giannisk, I think those are great points.  I hope you won't see them as blockers.
15:44:39 <robyduck> giannisk: I see also positive inputs with that, even if some might be strong, at the end FAmSCo will consider them to make its own decision
15:46:04 <robyduck> giannisk: bexelbie: we need to write a communication to the ambassadors list about the change, and could include some points people should be aware of
15:46:25 <bexelbie> sounds like a good plan
15:46:30 <giannisk> robyduck: +1
15:46:43 <robyduck> but for now we have 3 +1s and 2 -1s, this needs to go to the trac anyway
15:46:55 <robyduck> oh
15:46:57 <fredlima> don't need, I will change my vote to +1
15:47:06 <fredlima> bexelbie make me get the point
15:48:08 <robyduck> #agreed FAmSCo will take all FAmSCo discussions to the ambassadors list and set FAmSCo ML as private, for only specific and sensible topics
15:48:47 <giannisk> robyduck: It's a +1 from me as well, as long as we communicate with the ambassadors and include some of those points
15:48:50 <giannisk> robyduck: So yes :)
15:49:07 <robyduck> #info This will imply communication to the ambassadors of the change and include some points people should be aware of when participating to FAmSCo discussions
15:50:03 <robyduck> #action robyduck to change ticket notifications in the pagure repo
15:50:44 <robyduck> should I also write to the ambassadors list? does anyone else want to do that?
15:51:49 <robyduck> ok will do that too :)
15:51:59 <giannisk> robyduck++
15:52:15 <robyduck> #topic Open Floor
15:52:55 <mailga> I have a question related to the readiness meeting
15:52:59 <robyduck> we don't have time to start the mentor nominating stuff, but could you read my proposal for next time?
15:53:10 <robyduck> mailga: yeah, I was digging up the schedule
15:53:59 <robyduck> #link https://fedorapeople.org/groups/schedule/f-26/f-26-ambassadors-tasks.html
15:54:31 <robyduck> actually we have one upcoming task by the end of march
15:54:33 <robyduck> FAmSCo and Regional teams call for Preparation of Media/SWAG
15:54:35 <giannisk> By the way, I will hopefully update the ambassador mentor's wiki page today. I will send another reminder to mentors who did not reply back to me - If they do not reply back again within a week, I will mark them as inactive (with an option to be reinstated if they wish in the near future)
15:54:59 <robyduck> giannisk++
15:54:59 <zodbot> robyduck: Karma for giannisk changed to 7 (for the f25 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:55:21 <robyduck> mailga: you question?
15:55:26 <giannisk> So far, about 60-70% of mentors replied.
15:55:40 <robyduck> s/you/your
15:56:07 <robyduck> giannisk: this is quite good
15:56:23 <mailga> robyduck: seems we are up to date at the moment, since the Media/Swag period didn't start yet.
15:56:29 <mailga> Is true?
15:56:39 <robyduck> yupp
15:57:14 <robyduck> I am also not aware of anything for which ambassadors are not ready (if you mean the readiness meeting)
15:57:48 <mailga> robyduck: Jan asked me to be there for the ambys part, and I can make it. Yeas the readiness meeting.
15:57:57 <mailga> s/Yeas/Yes
15:58:06 <robyduck> cool
15:58:11 <mailga> that's all from me.
15:58:38 <robyduck> mailga: thanks
15:58:45 <robyduck> anything else for today?
15:59:48 <mailga> nope
16:00:09 <robyduck> thanks for coming, see you next week
16:00:25 <jonatoni> thanks for chairing robyduck
16:00:32 <robyduck> #endmeeting