13:09:10 <cschalle> #startmeeting Workstation WG
13:09:10 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Mar 27 13:09:10 2017 UTC.  The chair is cschalle. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
13:09:10 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
13:09:10 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation_wg'
13:09:57 <cschalle> do we have any topics for today? looking at Pauls email I don't see any new topics
13:10:48 * rdieter waves, hi
13:10:56 <mcatanzaro> .hello catanzaro
13:10:57 <zodbot> mcatanzaro: catanzaro 'Michael Catanzaro' <mcatanzaro@gnome.org>
13:11:05 <ryanlerch> .hello ryanlerch
13:11:06 <zodbot> ryanlerch: ryanlerch 'Ryan Lerch' <rlerch@redhat.com>
13:11:07 <rdieter> .hello rdieter
13:11:09 <zodbot> rdieter: rdieter 'Rex Dieter' <rdieter@math.unl.edu>
13:11:24 <mcatanzaro> I don't know about the planned schedule. I wanted to ask if we could get that GStreamer MP3 plugin installed by default.
13:11:33 <mcatanzaro> Is it provided by a Fedora package?
13:11:43 <mcatanzaro> #topic GStreamer MP3  plugin
13:11:47 * mcatanzaro has hijacked meeting
13:12:07 <ryanlerch> mcatanzaro: is this for encoding?
13:12:09 <cschalle> it is a separate package yes, so I guess all that is needed is including it in the Workstation package list?
13:12:21 <cschalle> ryanlerch, no encoding yet, we have to wait a bit more for that
13:12:43 <mcatanzaro> cschalle: I'm editing the list now to add gnome-abrt. Would be good to know which package provides MP3. Anyone know?
13:12:45 * ryanlerch thoguht the decoding one was already in there :/
13:13:14 <cschalle> ryanlerch, it is in Fedora,but not in the default install
13:13:29 <ryanlerch> cschalle: ah, gotcha!
13:13:45 <cschalle> mcatanzaro, it is based on mpg123, so the package should be called something like that, trying to find it now
13:14:16 <rdieter> gstreamer1-plugin-mpg123 ?
13:14:39 <rdieter> description: GStreamer plug-in for mp3 support through mpeg123.
13:14:43 <rdieter> that one?
13:14:50 <cschalle> rdieter, sounds like it, although there should be a dependency for it too
13:15:14 <cschalle> yeah, mpg123 and mpg123-libs
13:15:44 <cschalle> there are also a plugin for pulseaudio I guess we want to ship by default. mpg123-plugins-pulseaudio
13:16:31 <cschalle> mcatanzaro, so I think you got the package list there, 4 packages to add
13:17:18 <rdieter> what does mpg123-plugins-pulseaudio do ?
13:17:49 <rdieter> apparently decodes mp3 too
13:18:10 <cschalle> rdieter, maybe decode the mp3 on the fly if you have a bluetooth headset that doesn't support mp3? (me doesn't actually know the usecase)
13:18:33 <mcatanzaro> mpg123 and mpg123-libs will be pulled in as dependencies. I'll just add gstreamer1-plugin-mpg123.
13:18:38 <mcatanzaro> Dunno about mpg123-plugins-pulseaudio.
13:18:59 <mcatanzaro> I suspect whatever instructions we have for installing mp3 currently do not pull that in.
13:19:15 <mcatanzaro> Sounds like a job for RPM dependencies to handle...?
13:19:30 <kwizart> mpg123-plugins-pulseaudio is an (pa) output module for the cmd line mpg123 binary
13:19:41 <cschalle> ah ok
13:19:46 <cschalle> so fine to skip then
13:19:49 <mcatanzaro> OK, so don't need it, thanks kwizart!
13:19:55 <kwizart> yep
13:20:41 <cschalle> so lets do a quick vote to formally approve it for inclusion in the default package list. +1 from me
13:20:47 <rdieter> +1
13:20:54 <mcatanzaro> +1
13:20:58 <ryanlerch> +1
13:21:26 <cschalle> ok, think that is all who is here
13:21:38 <cschalle> on a related note, should we include AC3 by default too? any opinions?
13:21:43 <rdieter> cschalle: default in Multimedia comps group (along with other gstreamer plugins)?
13:22:04 <rdieter> cschalle: ac3 too, probably yes
13:22:05 <mcatanzaro> cschalle: If it's a gstreamer plugin then I don't see why not. OTOH I'm not sure AC3 is popular/useful; I had never heard of it until last week.
13:22:06 <cschalle> rdieter, well default in whatever will put it on the install DVD and installed by default
13:22:26 <mcatanzaro> rdieter: I'm going to add -mpg123 to the multimedia group in comps.
13:22:29 <cschalle> mcatanzaro, more or less every matroska file I see out there with DVD rips use ac3 + H64
13:22:29 <rdieter> cschalle: just wanted to make sure all desktops benefited, not just workstation
13:22:38 <mcatanzaro> So it'll affect all desktops.
13:22:50 <mcatanzaro> cschalle: OK, let's add it too. What's the package name?
13:22:59 <linuxmodder> .hello linuxmodder-
13:23:00 <zodbot> linuxmodder: Sorry, but you don't exist
13:23:05 <linuxmodder> .hello linuxmodder
13:23:06 <zodbot> linuxmodder: linuxmodder 'Corey W Sheldon' <sheldon.corey@openmailbox.org>
13:23:08 <cschalle> rdieter, ah ok, to be honest I don't actually know the finer details on what decides which package gets included where :)
13:23:20 <rdieter> is the fedora packaging for ac3 actually done yet?
13:23:33 <cschalle> rdieter, not yet, but we will hopefully get it sorted this week
13:23:35 <rdieter> All I recall seeing so far was just an announcement that it was (legally) ok
13:23:38 <rdieter> ok
13:23:57 <cschalle> rdieter, the package is already in rpmfusion so we just need to move it over (hopefully along with the person maintaining it there)
13:24:01 <mcatanzaro> I'll just add -mpg123 then.
13:24:10 <mcatanzaro> And when ac3 is done we can add that too.
13:24:45 <rdieter> cschalle: sure, just saying the package availability is a prerequisite before modifiying comps
13:25:50 <rdieter> (but we can surely decide whether it should be included earlier)
13:26:11 <ryanlerch> just out of interest, do these take up much room on the default install?
13:26:20 <mcatanzaro> OK next question
13:26:20 <cschalle> ryanlerch, no they are tiny
13:26:23 <ryanlerch> and, does it really matter anymore?
13:26:24 <mcatanzaro> gstreamer1-plugin-mpg123
13:26:36 <mcatanzaro> # The source is:
13:26:38 <ryanlerch> cschalle: woot! thanks!
13:26:39 <mcatanzaro> # http://gstreamer.freedesktop.org/src/gst-plugins-ugly/gst-plugins-ugly-%{version}.tar.xz
13:26:41 <mcatanzaro> # modified with gst-p-extract.sh from SOURCE1
13:26:47 <mcatanzaro> Why is this its own package? We should just not delete it from ugly.
13:26:49 <mcatanzaro> Oh
13:26:51 <mcatanzaro> Dumb
13:26:53 <mcatanzaro> We can't ship ugly
13:26:55 <mcatanzaro> OK
13:27:05 <cschalle> mcatanzaro, there is work in gstreamer to move it to good
13:27:06 <mcatanzaro> So it should move from -ugly to -bad upstream, right?
13:27:08 <mcatanzaro> OK
13:27:16 <mcatanzaro> Well in the meantime, we'll just add it ourselves in comps.
13:27:23 <cschalle> mcatanzaro, so the separate package is a placeholder
13:28:39 <cschalle> ok, so next topic
13:29:52 <cschalle> Hans de Goede is getting very close in his work together with the rpmfusion and negativo13 folks to have a fully working binary NVidia driver package ready for Fedora. I asked him to send a formal request for inclusion to the Fedora-desktop mailing list once he is ready to go
13:30:01 <mcatanzaro> #topic NVidia driver
13:30:34 <cschalle> so I suggest we discuss it once he does that and he can also join this meeting if people have any questions
13:31:37 <ryanlerch> where would the binary package be shipped?
13:31:56 <rdieter> interesting, does that mean kernel maintainers no longer have objections to fedora including 3rd-party modules , or made an exception for this case?
13:31:58 <mcatanzaro> (Note: https://pagure.io/fedora-comps/pull-request/91)
13:32:14 <cschalle> a separate repository hosted by rpmfusion, so including/enabling it would not enable anything else
13:32:21 <cschalle> ryanlerch, ^ ^
13:32:44 <rdieter> ah, thanks for the clarification, though it's still skirting the issue a bit
13:32:56 <cschalle> rdieter, yes, they are fine with the approach. Be aware though that we are not including it by default of course, it is a separate 3rd party download
13:33:12 <mcatanzaro> If it's going to be clearly marked with the Proprietary license in gnome-software, then I have no problem with this.
13:33:28 <cschalle> mcatanzaro, yes that and 3rd party labelling too
13:34:09 <ryanlerch> ah, so the difference here (to when in the past RPMFusion has shipped the binary) is that it will be in Software as a 3rd Party download?
13:34:51 <rdieter> ryanlerch: the repo will be available/enabled already (at least the metadata)
13:34:54 <cschalle> ryanlerch, yes, plus all the work Hans has been doing over the last 6 Months to ensure it can be installed supporting glvnd to avoid conflicts with Mesa, working Nouvou fallback in case something breaks etc.
13:35:41 <ryanlerch> cschalle: thanks for the clarification!
13:37:11 <cschalle> the one big thing missing that we are trying to Nvidia to work with us on is power consumption on hybrid graphics systems. Once the binary driver is installed there is no way to currently put the NVidia chip to sleep, and thus it increases laptop power consumption significantly (on the other hand it makes your NVidia gpu able to do something useful)
13:37:51 <rdieter> ouch
13:38:33 <mcatanzaro> TBH I don't see any point in working with nvidia... AMD has open sourced their driver, would be better to work with them to promote AMD graphics instead....
13:38:56 <kwizart> rebooting under and switching to the FOSS stack is probably the best workaround at this step
13:38:58 <cschalle> mcatanzaro, well it is not an either or, and it is also about serving the 90% of your userbase vs the 10%
13:38:59 <ryanlerch> do we have a way in software to communicate things like that to the user? if it is still an issue when it is shipped?
13:39:17 <cschalle> ryanlerch, We could always put a note in the description
13:39:54 <mcatanzaro> I think 90% of the userbase are probably best served by noveau, right? Very few people need better graphics card performance (computer gamers, right? not exactly popular on Fedora.). Basically everybody wants better battery life.
13:40:41 <rdieter> depends, is the power issue specific to hybrid graphics (monolithic nvidia doesn't suffer)?
13:40:52 <cschalle> mcatanzaro, well from the experience we see from jeishma's install fests for instance it turns out a lot of CS students out there also wants to play games, and thus they by hybrid graphics laptops
13:41:17 <cschalle> rdieter, no it is just that the nvidia chips eat more power than the Intel ones, so even a pure NVidia system needs more power
13:41:28 <cschalle> rdieter, also the amount of Nvidia only laptops out there these days is close to 0
13:41:50 <cschalle> mcatanzaro, the plan here is to offer Steam in GNOMe Software too
13:42:34 <ryanlerch> mcatanzaro: it's not an accurate gauge by any means, but there was a bit of chatter in the comments at f25 release about the nvidia binaries:
13:42:36 <ryanlerch> https://fedoramagazine.org/upgrading-fedora-24-fedora-25/
13:44:58 <cschalle> anyway, lets save any further questions to another meeting when we can have Hans here too, he can probably give a lot more details than I
13:45:40 <cschalle> mcatanzaro, btw, AMD Hybrid graphics machines should already be working fine since its all Mesa, Hans got a test machine with that setup that he used to verify
13:46:01 <mcatanzaro> Yay mesa!
13:46:11 <cschalle> unless people use the AMDGPU Pro driver, not sure its supports GLVND yet
13:46:44 <cschalle> but since the Mesa driver is competitive in performance these days I guess the amount of people interested in the AMDGPU Pro driver is dwindling
13:47:27 <Southern_Gentlem> ??
13:48:30 <cschalle> Southern_Gentlem, question or comment?
13:48:33 <Southern_Gentlem> cschalle,  depends what they install with
13:49:16 <Southern_Gentlem> if they install with f25 GOLD they are asking in the fedora channel about the amdgpupro stuff or they are going to another DE
13:49:35 <Southern_Gentlem> if they install with the updated lives its about 50/50
13:50:29 <cschalle> Southern_Gentlem, not sure I follow, are you saying there are a lot of people who rely on the AMDGPU pro driver and asking about it in the #fedora channel?
13:50:52 <Southern_Gentlem> yes they are asking about since they come over from other distros
13:51:19 <Southern_Gentlem> and install workstation and there graphics in not what they expected
13:51:51 <cschalle> Southern_Gentlem, ah ok, well I would love to support the AMDGPU pro driver too, but we need AMD to do the work to support glvnd as we can't do that for them :(
13:52:04 <Southern_Gentlem> i know
13:52:15 <cschalle> but I will try to reach out to figure out where they are with that as I assume they have it somewhere on their todo list
13:52:57 <Southern_Gentlem> if they install the F25 Gold isos  they are less happy than installing the updated f25 isos  becausethe updated isos have the updated packages
13:53:24 <Southern_Gentlem> gold ==getfedora updated isos alt-fedora
13:53:59 <cschalle> ah ok, well looking forward to having F26 out there door then with the graphics stack settling down again with glvnd
13:55:18 <cschalle> ok, we only got 5 minutes left. Anyone urgent items before I close the meeting?
13:56:10 <cschalle> ok, well thank you everyone, and appologize again for the late start
13:56:10 <ryanlerch> nothing here.
13:56:12 <cschalle> #endmeeting