17:13:18 <geppetto> #startmeeting fpc
17:13:19 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jun 28 17:13:18 2017 UTC.  The chair is geppetto. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:13:19 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:13:19 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fpc'
17:13:19 <geppetto> #meetingname fpc
17:13:19 <geppetto> #topic Roll Call
17:13:19 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fpc'
17:13:41 * limburgher here
17:13:49 <tibbs> Howdy.
17:13:53 <geppetto> Hey
17:13:58 <geppetto> #chair tibbs
17:13:58 <zodbot> Current chairs: geppetto tibbs
17:13:59 <tibbs> I don't normally sit around in this channel.
17:14:03 <geppetto> #chair orionp
17:14:03 <zodbot> Current chairs: geppetto orionp tibbs
17:14:04 <tibbs> So thanks for the ping.
17:14:15 <orionp> hello, didn't pay attention to meeting change...
17:14:26 <geppetto> Me either … that's why it's 15 minutes late :)
17:14:42 <tibbs> I was paying attention until this morning when I totally forgot what day it is.
17:14:43 <limburgher> I noticed, but I didn't want to nag. . .
17:14:47 <tibbs> Summer will do that to you.
17:14:50 <limburgher> . . .not your housekeeper, dear. . .
17:15:13 <Rathann> .hello rathann
17:15:14 <zodbot> Rathann: rathann 'Dominik Mierzejewski' <dominik@greysector.net>
17:15:15 <geppetto> #chair limburgher
17:15:15 <zodbot> Current chairs: geppetto limburgher orionp tibbs
17:15:19 <geppetto> #chair Rathann
17:15:19 <zodbot> Current chairs: Rathann geppetto limburgher orionp tibbs
17:15:33 <geppetto> Everyone should thank Rathann for ping'ing me :)
17:15:56 <limburgher> Rathann++
17:15:56 <zodbot> limburgher: Karma for rathann changed to 3 (for the f25 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
17:16:03 <Rathann> you're welcome
17:16:58 <geppetto> #topic Schedule
17:17:02 <geppetto> https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/issues?status=Open&tags=meeting
17:17:17 <geppetto> No email'ed schedule … for obvious reasons
17:17:30 <limburgher> Righto.
17:18:04 <geppetto> So, both tickets we talked about last meeting
17:18:40 <limburgher> And nothing added in the interim.
17:18:41 <tibbs> FYI, the meetbot links in those two tickets are 404.
17:19:22 <tibbs> "10.00.txt" in the URLs should be "16.00.txt".
17:19:26 <geppetto> yeh, need to change the 10.00 to 16.00 at the end
17:19:31 <tibbs> I just noticed that because I'm trying to refresh my memory.
17:19:35 <geppetto> yeh
17:19:38 <geppetto> #topic #691 noarch *sub*packages with arch-specific dependencies
17:20:30 <tibbs> This is basically waiting for more info.
17:20:36 <geppetto> So we ended up saying we'd table it for more info. … but didn't write down what info. we needed, or put the ticket in needinfo
17:20:59 <tibbs> Yeah, basically there are at least a couple of things going on.
17:21:21 <tibbs> First is that we should warn people that the trick of using Excludearch in a noarch package only works when you have no subpackages.
17:22:59 <geppetto> ok
17:23:25 <tibbs> The second is whether some koji change means we need to further change what people can do.
17:24:04 <geppetto> #info First problem is that we should warn people that the trick of using Excludearch in a noarch package only works when you have no subpackages.
17:24:09 <Rathann> I think the ExcludeArch trick doesn't work
17:24:23 <Rathann> I'm still getting broken deps mail for my package
17:24:33 <Rathann> which I built according to current guidelines
17:24:44 <geppetto> #info Second problem is a koji change means we need other changes.
17:24:53 <tibbs> I had seen the PR for koji do add more magic around this, but I have no idea if that had been deployed or not.
17:25:10 <geppetto> So current recommendation is to just arch stuff?
17:25:17 <tibbs> Someone mentioned that it was live but don't have a way to verify that, really, besides bugging folks.
17:25:41 <geppetto> yeh
17:25:44 <tibbs> Really I should just go ask releng to tell us what we need to say and then write a draft and make sure that doesn't cause problems elsewhere.
17:27:06 <geppetto> #action We need to ask someone in releng what policy should be and then write a draft
17:27:57 <geppetto> We want to move on again?
17:28:25 <tibbs> Yeah, let me bug some people since it's still not clear what's supposed to work.
17:28:37 * geppetto nods
17:28:43 <geppetto> #topic #693 Wiki:Packaging:RPMMacros
17:28:48 <geppetto> .fpc 693
17:29:18 <tibbs> So I've been thinking more about this.
17:29:39 <geppetto> Any new conclusions?
17:30:04 <tibbs> Obviously we don't want to document every macro that people might see in any random spec, or when they run rpm --showrc.
17:30:37 <tibbs> But... maybe we should at least list the generic ones that we actually mention in the guidelines.
17:31:33 <tibbs> Even I as someone who doesn't like those macros in general ended up using %_tmpfilesdir because, well, it's easier to remember that than to be arsed to remember where those actually live on the filesystem.
17:31:44 <tibbs> And it's shorter, after all.
17:32:25 <geppetto> Hmm
17:32:36 <tibbs> So... something in the middle.  Note that the page isn't intended to be an exhaustive reference.  List the things we actually use in the guidelines.
17:32:56 <tibbs> Though that will quickly become a pain if we decide to also include random java or python macros.  So... don't.
17:33:05 <geppetto> yeh
17:33:27 <tibbs> Refer to domain-specific guidelines for explanations of those macros.  And do that generally so there's no list that's getting out of date.
17:33:35 <geppetto> We'd need to word it carefully to say only generic wide used in policy macros, or soemthing
17:33:45 * geppetto nods
17:34:08 <tibbs> List the macros which we would expect people to see in well-written specs, and the ones which save people typing and enhance clarity.
17:34:15 <Rathann> %_libdir, %_datadir, %_bindir ?
17:34:26 <tibbs> Yeah, basically the ones in that class.
17:34:52 <tibbs> We don't need to explain %configure there if we do it elsewhere in the guidelines.
17:35:17 <tibbs> The community should still have a page that can be more or less exhaustive.
17:35:18 <zodbot> geppetto: Issue #693: Wiki:Packaging:RPMMacros - packaging-committee - Pagure - https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/issue/693
17:35:39 <tibbs> zodbot has been weird lately.
17:35:55 <geppetto> wow, that was _slow_
17:37:01 <tibbs> So let me make an attempt.  I would basically try to leave out definitions for things we know will change, or aren't something which anyone should care about (like the value of %buildroot).
17:37:41 <limburgher> Thank you.
17:37:49 <tibbs> I would completely remove the "RPM directory macros" section" as I can see no reason why those should be in the guidelines.
17:38:10 <geppetto> yeh, like _initdir can go now
17:38:41 <tibbs> And, sure, sourcedir  might show up occasionally when someone does something fancy but that doesn't mean it needs to be in the guidelines.
17:38:56 <tibbs> We aren't trying to list everything you can use, or everything you are allowed to use.
17:38:57 <geppetto> I wonder if we want to lie a little bit, Eg. removing _datarootdir and pretending datadir has it's value.
17:39:17 <tibbs> I have never even seen _datarootdir outside of this guideline page.
17:39:18 <geppetto> Also the _exec_prefix BS
17:39:23 <geppetto> yeh
17:39:54 <geppetto> It's a weird rpm thing … --showrc shows it is there
17:40:01 <tibbs> Can anyone think of a better name for the page than "RPMMacros".
17:40:08 <tibbs> Oh, sure, --showrc shows loads of crap.
17:40:30 <geppetto> yeh, I'm just guessing that someone did that page by filtering --showrc
17:40:52 <tibbs> 51 current specs use %_datarootdir.
17:40:53 <geppetto> So we got the weird indirection macros, even though nobody cares
17:40:57 <geppetto> wow
17:41:28 <geppetto> I wonder if they just misspelt datadir … or they think it means something
17:41:38 <tibbs> I guarantee that number would be lower if it wasn't listed in the guidelines page.
17:41:45 <geppetto> yeh
17:42:16 <tibbs> If we had pagure and magically all of the scripts I wanted actually existed, I'd send PRs for all of them.
17:42:24 <geppetto> :)
17:44:20 <geppetto> #action tibbs try to leave out definitions for things we know will change, or aren't something which anyone should care about
17:44:37 <geppetto> #topic Open Floor
17:45:04 <geppetto> Ok, anything else to talk about … got 15 minutes.
17:45:13 <tibbs> How many people actually know what we're talking about with "Macros mimicking autoconf variables"?
17:45:38 <tibbs> Plenty of software uses autoconf, sure, but a growing percentage doesn't.
17:45:39 <Rathann> geppetto: https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/issue/695
17:45:41 <geppetto> a bunch of old school packagers
17:46:07 * Rathann counts himself as old school
17:46:10 <tibbs> I can just go in and fix 695.
17:46:24 <limburgher> I think I'm maybe medium-school.
17:46:30 <geppetto> Yeh, looks trivial
17:46:39 <geppetto> is there any reason to not just do it?
17:46:42 <limburgher> tibbs: please and thank you.
17:47:32 * geppetto hadn't realized before that there's now a delete this ticket button :-o
17:48:17 <Rathann> hehe
17:48:21 <tibbs> Yeah, people have run into that.  If you hit it accidentally then I can get it back.
17:48:30 <limburgher> Can we disable it?
17:48:44 <limburgher> The Thing That Should Not Be.
17:48:59 <geppetto> as long as tibbs can get it back it's no big deal
17:49:04 <limburgher> Occasionally at work I have to club people for deleting JIRAs.
17:49:17 <tibbs> You have to check out the ticket repo and revert the commit that deleted the ticket.
17:49:24 <limburgher> Yes, but does tibbs scale? :)
17:49:27 <tibbs> Since the tickets are in git as well....
17:49:34 <limburgher> Oooh. Slick.
17:49:44 <tibbs> Anyone can do it, I just happen to have had this discussion already this week.
17:50:02 <tibbs> 695 is done now.  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Guidelines#Architecture_Build_Failures
17:50:17 <tibbs> Which ticket got nuked?
17:53:28 <tibbs> geppetto: Did you actually delete a ticket that needs to be restored?
17:53:47 <geppetto> tibbs: no … just noticed the button and mentally thought "must not press"
17:54:02 <tibbs> Oh, OK; I already set up the hook and did a checkout.
17:54:10 <tibbs> No big deal either way.
17:54:47 <limburgher> Aaaaannnnd now I have Blues Traveler stuck in my head.
17:54:47 <geppetto> ok, anyone have anything else?
17:55:06 <tibbs> I'm out.
17:55:10 <limburgher> Nope.
17:56:17 <geppetto> Ok, thanks again to Rathann or we would have missed the meeting … and thanks for everyone for turning up on short notice.
17:56:27 <geppetto> Hopefully two weeks from now will go smoother
17:56:50 <geppetto> #action geppetto Change calendar/etc. for new meeting times.
17:56:57 <geppetto> #endmeeting