14:03:06 <mcatanzaro> #startmeeting Workstation WG
14:03:06 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Feb 12 14:03:06 2018 UTC.  The chair is mcatanzaro. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:03:06 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:03:06 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation_wg'
14:03:16 <mcatanzaro> #meetingname workstation
14:03:16 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation'
14:03:20 <mcatanzaro> .hello catanzaro
14:03:21 <zodbot> mcatanzaro: catanzaro 'Michael Catanzaro' <mcatanzaro@gnome.org>
14:03:21 <juhp> .hello petersen
14:03:24 <ryanlerch> .hello ryanlerch
14:03:24 <zodbot> juhp: petersen 'Jens Petersen' <petersen@redhat.com>
14:03:25 <mcatanzaro> mclasen: Say hello again!
14:03:25 <otaylor> .hello otaylor
14:03:26 <zodbot> ryanlerch: ryanlerch 'Ryan Lerch' <rlerch@redhat.com>
14:03:29 <stickster> .hello pfrields
14:03:30 <zodbot> otaylor: otaylor 'Owen Taylor' <otaylor@redhat.com>
14:03:32 <zodbot> stickster: pfrields 'Paul W. Frields' <stickster@gmail.com>
14:03:38 <kalev> .hello kalev
14:03:39 <zodbot> kalev: kalev 'Kalev Lember' <klember@redhat.com>
14:04:50 <mclasen> .hello mclasen
14:04:51 <zodbot> mclasen: mclasen 'Matthias Clasen' <mclasen@redhat.com>
14:05:46 <mcatanzaro> #topic Reduce initial setup redundancy
14:05:54 <mcatanzaro> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/21
14:06:28 <mcatanzaro> So FESCo has approved the change, thanks to cschaller and kalev.
14:06:37 <mcatanzaro> But now it's stuck on a pull request
14:06:51 <mcatanzaro> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-kickstarts/pull-request/328
14:07:11 <otaylor> (was actually me, not cschalle :-)
14:07:19 <mcatanzaro> Oh, whoops, thanks otaylor! ;)
14:07:30 <kalev> sadly, we don't have anyone on the workstation side who can approve kickstart pull requests
14:07:51 <mcatanzaro> Now, once that PR gets merged, we'll be able to test to see what has happened and how it is broken. I've talked to awilliamson and we're both expecting loads of OpenQA tests to start failing.
14:07:58 <otaylor> mcatanzaro: probably people have just not seen it with devconf.cz travel
14:08:16 <mclasen> who do we need to convince there, nirik ?
14:08:28 <mcatanzaro> I've volunteered to spend a bit of time trying to manage whatever damage it causes to OpenQA, but I need someone else to figure out how to get it merged.
14:08:32 <stickster> is the fact the jenkins build failed on that PR relevant?
14:08:39 <stickster> https://jenkins.fedorainfracloud.org/job/fedora-kickstarts/552/
14:08:51 <mcatanzaro> I didn't know there was a Jenkins
14:09:02 <otaylor> mcatanzaro: it looks like adamw *could* merge it himself
14:09:29 <stickster> also nirik may be able to merge
14:09:31 <mcatanzaro> https://jenkins.fedorainfracloud.org/job/fedora-kickstarts/552/console <-- failing jenkins build
14:09:35 <mclasen> it looks like an unrelated error to me. Something about kickstart syntax changes ?
14:09:37 <mcatanzaro> Looks like the failure is clearly unrelated to my change.
14:11:01 <otaylor> mcatanzaro: what do you think the next step is?
14:11:09 <mcatanzaro> Anyway, we've pinged nirik... he should be able to merge, once he sees this. I'll send him an email later this week if it remains stalled.
14:11:29 <mcatanzaro> #action mcatanzaro to try to get his fedora-kickstarts PR merged
14:12:02 <sgallagh> FWIW, I just took a look and offered up my "LGTM"
14:12:35 <sgallagh> I don't have merge permission, but I reviewed it.
14:12:37 <mcatanzaro> Unless someone has anything else to say, let's move on to the next topic... there's three more I'd like to try to get through
14:12:44 <mcatanzaro> Thanks sgallagh!
14:13:52 <mcatanzaro> #topic Noto Colour Emoji (google-noto-emoji-color-fonts) should be installed by default
14:14:39 <mcatanzaro> At the last meeting, we ran out of time and had not yet reached a consensus on whether to replace Emoji One with Noto Color Emoji
14:15:00 <juhp> right
14:16:37 <juhp> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/31
14:17:04 <otaylor> (https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-2/2018-01-15/workstation.2018-01-15-14.00.log.html from 14:39)
14:17:04 <mcatanzaro> Some of us were hoping to stick with Emoji One, while others were thinking it's unlikely that Emoji Two (the fork of Emoji One after Emoji One became nonfree) will become packageable in the near future, or reach the same level of Unicode coverage
14:17:37 <mcatanzaro> Also the screenshot in the first comment in the issue (thanks for the link juhp!) looks quite unfavorable for Emoji One
14:18:10 <mclasen> that has been fixed
14:18:19 <mclasen> well, 'fixed'
14:18:29 <mclasen> we won't show the fallback sequences in the chooser anymore
14:18:29 <juhp> Perhaps we can retake the screenshot with the latest gtk
14:18:49 <juhp> ah
14:18:52 <mclasen> so you'll experience the smaller coverage, with the ui breakage
14:19:50 <mclasen> without, I meant to say
14:21:08 <mclasen> so how do we proceed here ?
14:21:19 <ryanlerch> i think i missed this in a previous meeting, but what is the reasoning for using emoji one over noto?
14:21:33 <ryanlerch> since notoappears to have better coverage?
14:21:40 <otaylor> Looking at the emoji two repository, it looks like a one-man few-hours-a-month show. If it's missing hundreds of glyphs (do we have summary stats?) it doesn't seem realistic to me.
14:21:55 <mcatanzaro> ryanlerch: My understanding is that the goal is for our emoji to not look like Android.
14:21:57 <otaylor> ryanlerch: to have a distinctive look for the platform - to not just look like android
14:22:05 <juhp> ryanlerch: brand apparently
14:22:32 <mcatanzaro> I'm not sure that's a realistic goal, considering the condition of Emoji Two. Emoji Two also has a weird build system that apparently is not ready for Fedora packaging.
14:23:55 <mcatanzaro> #proposal Let's switch to Noto Color Emoji
14:23:56 <mclasen> sounds like 2 +1's for switching to noto ?
14:24:07 <mcatanzaro> +1 from me, at least
14:24:13 <ryanlerch> +1 from me
14:24:36 <stickster> +1 from me too.
14:24:49 <juhp> +1
14:24:58 <otaylor> +1
14:25:15 <mcatanzaro> rdieter: Any opinion?
14:25:30 <stickster> I hadn't chimed in earlier, but my thinking is... I understand and respect the need for a distinguishable appearance/personality. But OTOH divergence in emoji is something I've seen people complain about on other platforms (I put in face for emotion X and it looks like emotion Y instead)
14:25:43 <mcatanzaro> #chair otaylor juhp ryanlerch rdieter kalev stickster mclasen
14:25:43 <zodbot> Current chairs: juhp kalev mcatanzaro mclasen otaylor rdieter ryanlerch stickster
14:26:20 <mclasen> stickster: thats terrible, in particular if you see one emoji in the osk, and another appears in the text field (I've seen that happen)
14:27:05 <mcatanzaro> Anyway, at the risk of cutting off time for negative votes, this is clearly approved
14:27:17 <mcatanzaro> Is that #agreed or #approved, meetbot?
14:27:25 <stickster> I think it's #agreed
14:27:27 <mclasen> I'm 0, I can see the arguments on both sides
14:27:38 <stickster> it's a tough call to be sure
14:28:13 <ryanlerch> can we put a note somewhere to review coverage on emojitwo next release cycle or something?
14:28:48 <otaylor> I see both sides, but without an obvious plan other than "stick with smaller coverage for the time being", I think we need to switch. We can switch the preference back if emojitwo catches up.
14:28:58 <ryanlerch> i understand the need to be visually different, but IMO functionality trumps that in this case
14:29:08 <otaylor> Are we going to do anything to pull in the noto fonts on upgrade?
14:29:22 <mcatanzaro> #agreed Let's switch to Noto Color Emoji  (+5,1,-0)
14:29:40 <mcatanzaro> ryanlerch: Looks unlikely that the emojitwo situation will change, I'd say we should review it only if someone asks us to
14:29:45 <mclasen> good question. what does currently bring emojione in ? do we have a dep somewhere ?
14:29:59 <ryanlerch> mcatanzaro: understood. thanks!
14:30:24 <mcatanzaro> Now, inconvenient timing, I have to join another meeting. I'll keep watching here on IRC but it would be helpful if somebody else could volunteer to run the second half today?
14:30:59 <mcatanzaro> Looks like remaining work to figure out how to handle upgrades, and who will implement the change in comps.
14:31:23 <kalev> I think upgrades should "just work", afaik comps additions get pulled in on distro upgrades
14:31:30 <otaylor> gnome-themes-standard pulls in eosrei-emojione-fonts
14:32:01 <mcatanzaro> kalev: That's news to me, we've always had to discuss the problem of how to get new comps additions pulled in on upgrades. Generally our solution has been to add a fake requires somewhere else.
14:32:08 <ryanlerch> mcatanzaro: i can give chairing a go...
14:32:09 <mcatanzaro> And yes, gnome-themes-standard will need to change here.
14:32:13 <mcatanzaro> Thanks ryanlerch!
14:32:48 <mcatanzaro> (We'll see how well I can handle two meetings at once, because the other issues ready at https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issues are both mine too ;)
14:33:07 <ryanlerch> we ready for the next one?
14:33:39 <otaylor> Who is going to take the action on the technical implementation of the fonts change?
14:34:03 <otaylor> (gnome-themes-standard to pull it in, and make sure that our fontconfig configuration favors it if both are installed)
14:35:34 <juhp> I can try to coordinate it
14:35:57 <stickster> juhp++
14:35:57 <zodbot> stickster: Karma for petersen changed to 1 (for the f27 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:36:10 <otaylor> (silence) - OK, I'll take an action to ask mfabian if he can prepare the appropriate PR's
14:36:36 <mcatanzaro> I think fontconfig already favors noto
14:36:54 <mclasen> that was an upstream change, not sure if it made it in a release yet ?
14:37:51 <ryanlerch> wait, so juhp or mfabian is going to co-ordinate this?
14:38:43 <stickster> ryanlerch: otaylor: I think we want to have juhp take point here
14:38:43 <juhp> I can do it
14:38:46 <stickster> +1
14:38:57 <otaylor> I was majorly lagged
14:39:04 <stickster> no worries Owen
14:39:37 <ryanlerch> #action juhp to co-ordinate the change to the noto fonts as the default colour emoji font
14:39:41 * rdieter waves hi, sorry I'm late to the party
14:39:53 * otaylor will finish writing a summary comment on the ticket anyways
14:40:01 <juhp> hi rdieter
14:40:05 <ryanlerch> #topic Replace Shotwell with GNOME Photos in default install
14:40:06 <juhp> otaylor: great thanks
14:40:21 <ryanlerch> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/32
14:40:21 * mclasen looks for rishi
14:41:11 <stickster> rdieter: hola, señor!
14:41:37 <mcatanzaro> So a looong time ago we agreed to switch from Shotwell to Photos on the condition that Photos were to grow support for importing photos from physical cameras
14:42:04 <stickster> I recall that too
14:42:05 <mclasen> I'm looking for rishi to give the current status of that
14:42:14 <mcatanzaro> That stalled for a while (since who uses physical cameras anymore)? But rishi has implemented it to push this forward. Should be working in F28.
14:42:34 <mcatanzaro> He showed me screenshots; I doubt they're fake :)
14:42:57 * mclasen thinks physical camera == phone
14:42:58 <stickster> it would be deliciously ironic if they were faked with editing via Photos. Or via Shotwell?
14:43:03 <kalev> from a non-technical point of view, I think we have two factors here:
14:43:06 <kalev> a) shotwell has an active upstream maintainer once again
14:43:10 <kalev> b) gnome-photos upstream maintainer is our rishi, which means that it's easier to get fixes in for fedora related gnome-photos problems
14:43:32 <kalev> not really taking any sides, just wanted to point that out :)
14:43:43 <stickster> also thinking about how changing out the default would work for upgrades
14:43:55 <rdieter> sounds like a win-win then
14:43:58 <stickster> since we know lots of folks do that nowadays and it works well
14:44:21 <mcatanzaro> Shotwell will at least not be removed during upgrades, and you can always install it if you want it, so I don't think upgrades are much of a problem
14:44:30 <kalev> I think it should be the same as with the fonts package: we add gnome-photos and remove shotwell, and distro upgrades should pull in comps changes as far as I know
14:44:32 <rdieter> stickster: I think the best option is probably ... do nothing
14:44:35 <juhp> Right
14:44:42 <stickster> kalev: oh, does it?
14:44:50 <kalev> or at least additions, I'm pretty sure they do
14:44:58 * stickster never really understood how that worked, but defers to kalev who is much smarter
14:45:03 <stickster> s/but/and/
14:45:07 <stickster> see what I mean?
14:45:16 <otaylor> kalev: can you provide a reference? Or is anyone else familiar with this thing?
14:45:23 <juhp> i didn't know that either
14:45:39 <kalev> ignatenkobrain might know for sure
14:45:59 <otaylor> It didn't *used* to do that, but "used to" in my case might be status quo as of Red Hat Linux 7 or something ;-)
14:46:09 * mclasen can't get very excited about 'default app' discussions. lets just decide and move on
14:46:16 <ignatenkobrain> .hello2
14:46:17 <zodbot> ignatenkobrain: ignatenkobrain 'Igor Gnatenko' <ignatenko@redhat.com>
14:46:18 * ignatenkobrain reads backlog
14:46:42 <mclasen> the bigger goal still has to be to make more apps available more easily, not fiddle endlessly with the defaults
14:47:16 <ryanlerch> #proposal replace shotwell with GNOME Photos in the default install
14:47:20 <mcatanzaro> +1
14:47:24 <ryanlerch> +1
14:47:35 <ignatenkobrain> so there is one problem in upgrades
14:47:39 <ignatenkobrain> comps are never upgraded
14:47:49 <ignatenkobrain> whatever you installed 10 years ago as Workstation, this stays
14:47:54 <mclasen> +1
14:47:59 <otaylor> 0 - I haven't done a side-by-side comparison recently
14:48:05 <ignatenkobrain> (and called Workstation)
14:48:08 <rdieter> +1
14:48:21 <ignatenkobrain> group upgrade is usually broken and you end up with keeping old applications forever
14:48:43 <kalev> ignatenkobrain: does group upgrade add new apps? I think it's fine to keep old ones
14:49:05 <ignatenkobrain> kalev: IIRC it does, but user has to explicitly call group update
14:49:23 <ignatenkobrain> ah, also it reinstalls all apps removed by hand
14:49:42 <mcatanzaro> ryanlerch: Perhaps we should end here and discuss Music next meeting, when there's more time for discussion?
14:49:57 <ignatenkobrain> but this was never concern before, so I have doubts it is now
14:50:03 <ryanlerch> mcatanzaro: agreed
14:50:09 <kalev> I think we'll have to test this to be sure how gnome-software and dnf offline upgrades work
14:50:19 <ryanlerch> the next (and last) item is very similar too
14:50:27 <mclasen> did we approve this one ?
14:50:34 <ryanlerch> setting GNOME Music as default
14:50:43 <kalev> I'm 0 -- haven't tested gnome-photos at all, but at the same time not at all against with switching to a new modern thing
14:51:00 <mcatanzaro> ignatenkobrain: It's actually desirable IMO, we don't really want Photos appearing out of nowhere for users who have been using Shotwell. It's enough that we have a nicer set of default apps for new users.
14:51:32 <mcatanzaro> stickster: Do you want to vote on Photos?
14:51:49 <mclasen> don't see a vote from juhp yet, either
14:51:51 <juhp> I am okay with the change based on the earlier discussion though I don't have used either of the apps recently...
14:52:10 <stickster> mcatanzaro: sorry, yes. I'm +1 for Photos becoming default with rishi's new changes.
14:53:10 <stickster> I do think we should be providing guidance for upgraders on how to refresh the platform though, if the comps upgrades don't truly solve the problem of bringing in new apps
14:53:31 <ryanlerch> so we have 6 +1s, and 2 0's
14:54:10 <stickster> seems #agreed then
14:54:24 <juhp> yes
14:54:40 <mclasen> if we're quick, we can do one more item
14:54:55 <ryanlerch> #agreed GNOME Music to be the default music app in Fedora Workstation (6 +1s, 2 0s)
14:55:02 <mcatanzaro> #undo
14:55:02 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: AGREED by ryanlerch at 14:54:55 : GNOME Music to be the default music app in Fedora Workstation (6 +1s, 2 0s)
14:55:04 <mcatanzaro> Photos :)
14:55:39 <mcatanzaro> But hey! if we want to approve Music now, sure let's do that too! xD
14:55:40 <ryanlerch> #agreed GNOME photos to be the default photos app in Fedora Workstation (6 +1s, 2 0s)
14:56:00 <ryanlerch> mcatanzaro: hahah sorry -- its almost 1am my brain is getting ahead of itself
14:56:05 <ryanlerch> thanks for the undo
14:56:31 <mcatanzaro> ;)
14:57:05 <ryanlerch> #topic Replace Shotwell with GNOME Photos in default install
14:57:16 <ryanlerch> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/32
14:57:37 <ryanlerch> #undo
14:57:37 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Link object at 0x238e8dd0>
14:57:46 <ryanlerch> #undo
14:57:46 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Topic object at 0x3d3c6910>
14:58:05 <ryanlerch> #topic  Replace Rhythmbox with GNOME Music in default install
14:58:17 <ryanlerch> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/33
14:58:30 <ryanlerch> sorry again all :/
14:58:51 <stickster> :-)
14:58:53 <ryanlerch> okies i have it right now -- GNOME Music is on the discussion
14:59:15 <stickster> we only have about 1 min left
14:59:17 <ryanlerch> we have a minute
14:59:18 <mclasen> aaand... we're out of time
14:59:20 <stickster> should we take this up next time?
15:00:04 <stickster> #proposed take up Music discussion next meeting
15:00:11 <ryanlerch> +1
15:00:12 <rdieter> +1
15:00:17 <stickster> +1 myself :-)
15:00:22 <juhp> sounds fair
15:00:33 <kalev> yes, let's do it next time
15:00:43 * stickster has to run to another call... ryanlerch if you can't send minutes to list, let me know and I'll do it
15:00:49 <mclasen> oh, before we close - next week we'll do the inaugural meeting of the atomic workstation sig (in this time slot, I believe)
15:00:56 <mclasen> just fyi
15:01:04 <juhp> great
15:01:21 * kalev will be there.
15:01:24 <ryanlerch> mclasen: awesome!
15:01:25 <mclasen> I encourage everybody to try it out. Its great! :-)
15:01:46 <ryanlerch> mclasen: i might look at doing a magazine article or two about it
15:01:59 <mclasen> ryanlerch: we've been talking about that, indeed
15:02:10 <bt0_> sounds awesome, link please
15:02:13 <mclasen> lets take it up in #fedora-workstation or #atomic
15:02:23 <ryanlerch> mclasen: okies
15:02:23 <bt0_> ok
15:02:32 <ryanlerch> okies about to endmeeting
15:02:36 <ryanlerch> 5
15:02:40 <ryanlerch> 4
15:02:43 <ryanlerch> 3
15:02:47 <ryanlerch> 2
15:02:51 <ryanlerch> 1
15:02:57 <ryanlerch> #endmeeting