13:05:20 <mclasen> #startmeeting Atomic Workstation SIG
13:05:20 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Apr 16 13:05:20 2018 UTC.  The chair is mclasen. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
13:05:20 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
13:05:20 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'atomic_workstation_sig'
13:05:36 <mclasen> #chair san101
13:05:36 <zodbot> Current chairs: mclasen san101
13:05:42 <mclasen> #chair kalev
13:05:42 <zodbot> Current chairs: kalev mclasen san101
13:05:57 <mclasen> #chair misc
13:05:57 <zodbot> Current chairs: kalev mclasen misc san101
13:05:57 <otaylor> .here otaylor
13:06:11 <mclasen> #chair otaylor
13:06:11 <zodbot> Current chairs: kalev mclasen misc otaylor san101
13:06:13 <miabbott> .hello miabbott
13:06:13 <zodbot> miabbott: miabbott 'Micah Abbott' <miabbott@redhat.com>
13:06:30 <mclasen> #chaqir miabbott
13:06:40 <kalev> .hello kalev
13:06:41 <zodbot> kalev: kalev 'Kalev Lember' <klember@redhat.com>
13:06:41 <mclasen> #chair miabbott
13:06:41 <zodbot> Current chairs: kalev mclasen miabbott misc otaylor san101
13:06:41 <san101> seems so... eventually that Riot bug will get fixed and I'll get my original me back
13:06:50 <mclasen> ok, i guess thats a good start
13:06:59 <san101> .hellomynameis sanja
13:06:59 <zodbot> san101: sanja 'Sanja Bonic' <sanja@redhat.com>
13:07:47 <mclasen> do we have agenda items for today ?
13:07:55 <san101> naming?
13:07:56 <otaylor> I don't have anything planned
13:08:05 <mclasen> I don't think we succeeded in tagging issues for the meeting
13:08:30 <kalev> I have a quick gnome-software status report
13:08:59 <otaylor> mclasen: I have no trouble tagging an issue
13:09:01 <mclasen> ok, why don't we start with that. the naming discussion is certain to take time
13:09:11 <mclasen> otaylor: do we have a meeting tag ?
13:09:23 <otaylor> Yeah, just applied it to https://pagure.io/fedora-atomic-workstation/issue/13 as a test
13:09:31 <mclasen> #topic gnome-software status update
13:09:47 <mclasen> thanks, I'll see after the meeting if it works for me
13:09:53 <mclasen> kalev: take it away
13:10:37 <kalev> so, we had a missing item that broke all gnome-software updates on atomic workstation: it knew how to download and prepare updates, but didn't do update triggering
13:10:48 <kalev> so it was impossible to actually install anything
13:11:02 <kalev> this is now fixed, as of two weeks ago actually, but I missed the last meeting to report that :)
13:11:10 <mclasen> install an os update, you mean
13:11:13 <kalev> yep
13:11:20 <mclasen> I can confirm that it works for me
13:11:37 <kalev> and it's all in F28 and the rpm-ostree gnome-software backend is enabled in F28 by default
13:11:50 <mclasen> did we get any feedback on it during the recent atomic test day ?
13:12:07 <kalev> and mclasen fixed the polkit rules that allow update checks without password prompts, so it should be a pretty nice update experience, hopefulyl
13:12:10 <otaylor> does it prompt daily?
13:12:27 <kalev> I believe so, not 100% sure, could be weekly too
13:12:33 <mclasen> kalev: do you know if the polkit syntax fix will make it into f28 ?
13:12:55 <kalev> we don't have the securty vs normal updates thing wired up in the rpm-ostree backend and I'm not sure how it treats updates right now
13:13:24 <kalev> mclasen: I suspect it will, because there's always a late fedora-release bump after the freeze has started
13:13:25 <miabbott> mclasen: there's some FAW feedback at the bottom of the test day page - http://testdays.fedorainfracloud.org/events/39
13:13:34 <kalev> mclasen: the PR got merged, right?
13:13:52 <kalev> arr, no it didnt: https://pagure.io/fedora-release/pull-request/135
13:13:59 <mclasen> #info some faw test day feedback in https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/Running_a_meeting
13:14:00 <kalev> mboddu: ^^ any chance you could merge this, please?
13:14:40 <mclasen> kalev: what are next steps for rpm-ostree support in gnome-software ?
13:15:03 <miabbott> #undo
13:15:03 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: INFO by mclasen at 13:13:59 : some faw test day feedback in https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/Running_a_meeting
13:15:14 <miabbott> #info some faw test day feedback in http://testdays.fedorainfracloud.org/events/39
13:15:24 <mclasen> thanks :-)
13:15:26 <miabbott> 👍
13:15:28 <kalev> I think maybe layered packages are most burning, to be able to install codecs and so on
13:15:31 <kalev> what do you think?
13:15:54 <mclasen> I agree
13:15:59 <miabbott> pkg-layring +1
13:16:05 <kalev> okay, I'll look at that next
13:16:17 <kalev> it needs some new API for the rpm-ostree dbus daemon
13:16:41 <kalev> anyway, that's all I had to report here :)
13:16:53 <kalev> just wanted to say that rpm-ostree updates are working
13:16:53 <mclasen> thanks for the update, kalev
13:17:05 <mclasen> any further questions on that topic for kalev ?
13:17:50 <otaylor> Just wanted to say that I think the most important thing about package layering is gracefully handling error conditions - rather than enabling changing the config
13:18:04 * kalev nods.
13:18:53 <mclasen> yes, agreed
13:19:53 <mclasen> ok. shall we talk about naming ?
13:19:57 <san101> yeeeha
13:20:08 <mclasen> #topic Naming
13:20:13 * misc get the popcorn
13:20:34 <san101> ok so does everyone agree we need a renaming?
13:20:40 <mclasen> who wants to do an intro, san101 ?
13:20:46 <san101> ok, sure why not
13:20:48 <mclasen> take it away
13:22:14 * san101 sent a long message: san101_2018-04-16_13:22:16.txt <https://matrix.usersys.redhat.com/_matrix/media/v1/download/redhat.com/ORzdrKIoRneBJFbPUSMjOHAD>
13:22:44 <misc> mhh
13:22:47 <san101> now that being said, we need a codename to talk about all those things that are meant to be the future developer desktop
13:22:51 <miabbott> ah matrix
13:22:52 <misc> the link is not gonna work outside of RH
13:23:00 <misc> problem:
13:23:00 <misc> 1. we're currently talking about Fedora Atomic Workstation
13:23:00 <misc> 2. the project will be renamed for various reasons, we need to rename FAW anyway, otherwise we deal with historic baggage of having to explain where it's from when we haven't yet build up huge community to warrant the explanations
13:23:04 <misc> 3. we're in a good position to rename it now, it will be Fedora's future eventually is the vision
13:23:07 <misc> (for recording purpose)
13:23:10 <miabbott> 👍
13:23:25 <san101> is matrix being annoying again?
13:23:30 <mclasen> it is
13:23:44 <san101> siiiigh
13:24:10 <san101> ok anyway, we're talking about a container-based OS that covers many purpose from developer desktop to relatives' image-mode "you can't break it" OS to testing and corporate use case
13:24:15 <san101> including efforts for pet container tooling etc
13:24:20 <san101> that's the intro
13:25:26 <miabbott> and we have to encapsulate that all in a name?
13:25:26 <mclasen> the long-term vision is that faw can be the preferred way of using fedora as a developer workstation
13:25:35 <san101> now...names, bring it. we've talked about several and thrown them all away. now if you have an idea (jokes and sarcasm welcome, but please outside of the meeting now), shoot
13:25:53 <san101> ^ what mclasen just said
13:25:56 <mclasen> we're pushing towards the point where faw is ready for early adopters with f28
13:26:02 <san101> yes
13:26:12 <miabbott> do we keep the 'fedora' portion of the name?
13:26:14 <mclasen> and planning to have many remaining gaps closed in f29, including developer tooling
13:26:16 <san101> and yes, we need a name, it can be again "Project X" if it makes sense
13:26:22 <san101> miabbott, no
13:26:25 <kalev> "Fedora Workstation Next-Gen" ? :)
13:26:30 <san101> fedora doesn't have to be in the name because it'll end up being fedora anyway
13:26:37 <otaylor> miabbott: This is a "codename" for a project within Fedora
13:26:39 <mclasen> which is why we need a name now that we can grow mindshare around
13:26:41 <san101> please think outside of acronyms
13:26:47 <miabbott> ok, cool codenames, got it
13:26:55 <bexelbie> Workstation.next ... in line with other transformative ideas in Fedora in the past
13:27:06 <san101> no workstation
13:27:10 <otaylor> miabbott: so it wouldn't be "Fedora X", but "Fedora's X <project>"
13:27:21 <bexelbie> san101, then before we ideate can you share all of the other rules about names?
13:27:23 <otaylor> (project being optional)
13:27:49 <misc> "Really unbreakable Linux"
13:27:51 <san101> bexelbie it's not a rule, but it should be able to generate excitement and a feeling of being on top of things
13:27:59 <misc> so we can say the os RUL
13:28:05 <mclasen> no hard rules, but preferences, certainly
13:28:12 <mclasen> - no acronyms
13:28:23 <mclasen> - preferably one word
13:28:38 <misc> (+1 for rules)
13:29:26 <misc> will the name be reflected on url/domain, social media, forge account, do we need to verify them ?
13:29:56 <mclasen> - works for branding/visuals
13:30:04 <san101> by the way, we've had several meetings around this already, so if anything sounds like "no!" let me know and I'll explain the thinking behind it further
13:30:39 <misc> mclasen: can you clarify the "work for branding/visuals", or give example ?
13:31:01 <miabbott> any rules for using non-english languages, i.e. translation of a word or words?
13:31:09 <kalev> I don't understand the need for renaming, what's the problem with the current name?
13:31:11 <san101> misc - for example if you have rpm-ostree it's really hard to generate visuals for it
13:31:15 <kalev> and why can't we use "Workstation" in the name?
13:31:39 <mclasen> the goal of picking a better name is that we can have a logo and a website
13:31:45 <san101> we can but project workstation not only is reminiscent of the 90s, but it also isn't a great name to generate community growth
13:31:48 <misc> san101: so that's beyond just "this name is a 35 letters, and that's not visually good"
13:31:57 <otaylor> misc: it needs to be not obviously infringing or confusing with other software projects, but I wouldn't consider domain name availability a blocker
13:32:02 <mclasen> kalev: one reason is that atomic as project name is going away
13:32:16 <kalev> I see
13:32:22 <misc> otaylor: no, but I guess this is gonna go by legal
13:32:28 <mclasen> kalev: another is that atomic has all sorts of negative associations... fallout, nuclear annihilation, etc etc
13:32:34 <misc> so we need to have fallback in case something is not avaliable
13:32:53 <mclasen> kalev: workstation just feels old-school and dusty to me. I admit thats a personal preference of mine
13:32:57 <misc> so how many fallbacks would it be reasonable to have ?
13:33:18 <san101> we've already investigated about 10 names properly
13:33:22 <misc> (iirc, when we did choose mageia project name, the ratio was 50 proposal, 2 or 1 valid by the criteria e laid out at that time)
13:33:34 <san101> and have gotten negative feedback or they're already used, so we need some fresh ideas
13:33:36 <misc> (whic greatly simplified the choice )
13:33:55 <san101> yes, mageia also works as a name :D always liked the visuals and the name
13:34:20 <mclasen> san101: do you consider domain name availability a blocker ?
13:34:25 <san101> in fact, I liked it so much that I tried it out. only after some weeks of not liking it and it failing to load UEFI, I ditched it - but the branding is what attracted me in the first place
13:34:36 <san101> no, because there are so many TLDs
13:34:47 <misc> and we can add suffix and prefix
13:34:51 <misc> now, for twitter/etc
13:34:54 <san101> we can also choose something that works with a TLD in symbiosis
13:34:57 <misc> that's different :/
13:35:26 <mclasen> maybe we can mention some names that we've tried, to prime the pump
13:35:35 <san101> it needs to b available on twitter preferably, with/without suffix/prefix
13:35:38 <san101> yeah
13:35:38 <misc> do we have the criteria listed on a page ?
13:35:41 <san101> mclasen you got the doc open
13:35:59 <mclasen> yes
13:36:23 <mclasen> Bigleaf, Boxwood, Evolve, Blueberry, Turnip, Fireball
13:36:39 <san101> we've also thought of redwood and hyperion
13:36:55 <mclasen> I skipped some
13:37:01 <san101> yeah
13:37:13 <san101> so yeah we've gone through loads, but we need some fresh input now because we're stuck
13:37:42 <bexelbie> I personally like it when a name, even a multi-word one, conveys information about what a project does.  If I see a sticker that says blueberry I know nothing
13:37:47 <misc> what about some metal name ? that's usually solid, can be used as a fundation for building more
13:38:06 <misc> and there is enough metal to have at least a project name
13:38:11 <san101> yeah we were saying that friday actually that chromebook while not even using chrome in their branding did a great job
13:38:31 <misc> cause yeah, blueberry do evoke the civil war, or jelly :/
13:38:59 <san101> bexelbie yeah, we were thinking along the lines of making it a codename entirely or making it understandable but it's really hard to convey information  without sounding boring for this. image-mode fedora workstation doesn't have the right community growing ring to it
13:39:23 <kalev> "Fedora Workstation Next-Gen" sounds like a very positive name to me :)
13:39:27 <mclasen> the earliest line of search was along the tree line (for ostree)
13:39:50 <bexelbie> san101, I agree that the name you cite in that example is terrible.  However, ruling out all words that actually mean workstation or something related and requiring a single word seems to say "we want to ensure we have a name that conveys no information"
13:40:12 <misc> well, most name don't convey any information
13:40:26 <san101> that's correct - if we can come up with something not terrible that conveys information that's great
13:40:59 <san101> Project Atomic to me also means nothing, neither does CoreOS, Chromebook, Apple, or Red Hat
13:41:02 <san101> or Fedora
13:41:19 <mclasen> but if we can't, it is probably better to have a fresh-sounding word than a long winded specific description
13:41:22 <san101> we create the meaning through community efforts
13:41:30 <san101> 10 years ago, a droplet meant nothing
13:41:33 <bexelbie> san101, but all of those except Atomic have meaning after long branding efforts.  This is a code name that will probably not survive if this is the future ... why invest so much in branding?
13:41:55 <san101> not investing so much, just investing the buzz we can create now to get people into Fedora later who wouldn't usually touch Fedora
13:42:16 <san101> because this won't get to be the future if noone wants it
13:43:01 <bexelbie> but this is Fedora ... and not saying that won't change the fact that it is built of Fedora bits.
13:43:08 <mclasen> it takes some effort, but if we don't try, we basically ensure that outcome (nobody will want to try Workstation, image mode)
13:43:33 <san101> and noone will want image-mode fedora workstation just because the tech is so exciting. that'll be the hardcore devs and people who know what it's about. "Learn all about image-mode Fedora Workstation" is a talk only people will go to who want to know. "Learn all about CoolNameShadowWarriorNinjaX" is a talk that'll get attention of 100 and then maybe 20 stick around vs the 10 who know and want to know more and 6 who stick around
13:43:34 <san101> after that
13:43:38 <bexelbie> mclasen, I think that is incorrect.  The current buzz around Fedora Atomic Workstation is quite good
13:43:41 <mclasen> its not about changing the bits - fedora's bits are very solid and usable
13:43:51 <mclasen> its about changing the perception
13:43:54 <san101> bexelbie we created that buzz
13:43:59 <san101> and we know it won't get us much further if we don't name it better
13:44:05 <bexelbie> san101, yes, and with a name that has workstation in it :)
13:44:15 <san101> yes and it's way less than we could get
13:44:32 <san101> if you are strongly for workstation naming, I don't object.
13:44:36 <san101> I just say it's not great
13:44:40 <misc> mclasen: like some downstream change the perception by forking Fedora :) ?
13:44:57 <bexelbie> I like that I know what it is.  A workstation is valuable because of what it enables for me as a user, not hte tech it is built on
13:45:03 <bexelbie> the name doesn't change that
13:45:23 <bexelbie> but other descriptive words are fine too
13:45:38 <san101> Desktop > Workstation if the descriptive naming has to be
13:45:42 <san101> workstation sounds like work.
13:45:48 <san101> and work isn't fun for most people
13:45:51 <misc> funstation ?
13:45:58 <miabbott> playstation
13:46:09 * san101 facepalms but also chuckles.
13:46:12 <mclasen> branding wise, workstation is really not great. This image comes to my mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workstation#/media/File:Sun_SparcStation_10_with_CRT.jpg
13:46:19 <misc> but yeah, workstation has a 90's connotation, and to me, it make me think of those badass irix box
13:46:31 <misc> with 200mhz dual mips cpu
13:46:32 <miabbott> ok, i'm just going to throw out an idea - Project Esker
13:46:55 <miabbott> esker == norwegian for boxes....boxes == containers, etc etc
13:47:06 <san101> first thought is" not bad
13:47:11 <mclasen> you speak Norwegian ?
13:47:15 <miabbott> not at all
13:47:19 <miabbott> google translate ftw
13:47:32 <san101> esker is good, better than the german "Schachtel"
13:47:57 <miabbott> i don't know what kind of visual brand you can create with that, though
13:48:03 <san101> Fedora's Esker
13:48:11 <miabbott> there is also this to consider - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esker
13:48:19 <san101> I'm installing Esker today. What's that. That's Fedora's project.
13:48:24 <mclasen> I veto Schachtel
13:48:48 <san101> i totally veto Schachtel too
13:49:23 <misc> so, is it easy to pronounce in non english langauge ?
13:49:59 <miabbott> esker?  i think so...ess-kerr ?
13:50:06 * miabbott is not a linguist
13:50:15 <misc> the r made me wonder if it is ok for japanese speaking folks
13:50:54 <misc> (also, I hope that this doesn't mean something vulgar in some language, even if that's hard to avoid)
13:52:13 <mclasen> so, esker is a good candidate, it seems
13:52:21 <mclasen> can we find another ?
13:52:25 <san101> yeah i've had some Latin things suggested
13:52:33 <san101> but Pyxis or Puxis was taken by Arduino stuff
13:52:42 <mclasen> right
13:53:12 <san101> capsula, arca
13:53:29 <san101> although I'm good with Esker tbh
13:53:45 <san101> @esker and @eskeros are taken
13:53:49 <miabbott> \o/
13:54:02 <miabbott> @projectesker
13:54:04 <miabbott> ?
13:54:14 <miabbott> @eskerlinux
13:54:34 <san101> project works
13:54:47 <san101> linux I'd not use, because macos people might not want to flock to us :D
13:54:52 <misc> capsula sound like incapsula, that's already a company in the cloud business
13:54:54 <san101> but they totally should
13:55:32 <san101> ok maybe not esker
13:55:34 <san101> https://www.esker.com/company/press-releases/eskers-cloud-based-document-process-automation-solutions-shortlisted-2017/
13:55:52 <san101> too close "Esker’s Cloud-Based Document Process Automation Solutions Shortlisted for 2017 SaaS Awards"
13:56:00 <miabbott> naming is hard
13:56:05 <san101> indeed
13:56:23 <san101> mythology or anything?
13:56:30 <misc> naming is easy, naming without being sued is hard :p
13:56:35 <san101> haha yeah
13:56:47 <san101> Athena
13:56:50 <misc> but using "boxes", "container" in various languages sound promising
13:56:59 <san101> yeah, I wish the Latin ones worked
13:57:06 <san101> but they're kinda used or sound bad
13:57:18 <misc> (in fact, kubernetes used that trick too)
13:57:34 <misc> (and so did mageia)
13:57:49 <bexelbie> What about a name based on somethign that is made easier by the concept?
13:57:51 <cverna> maybe something related to foundation, a solid base
13:57:54 <bexelbie> easystation
13:58:19 <san101> Bhokisi means box in shona, which obviously is...zimbabwe?
13:58:25 <bexelbie> petStation - every day is take your pet container to work day
13:58:33 <mclasen> radix
13:58:40 <misc> bexelbie: you want to avoid that in french
13:58:41 <san101> that's...maths
13:58:42 <san101> :D
13:59:03 <mclasen> also latin
13:59:03 <misc> even if that perfectly convey the idea of "cloud"
14:00:05 <dustymabe> foo.. my cal still has this meeting starting *now*
14:01:16 <san101> obviously jlebon's too
14:01:22 <san101> another meeting that has to be changed to EST
14:01:46 <mclasen> coming up on the hour.  should we keep going for a bit, or take our esker and go home ?
14:02:03 <jlebon> oh... did i miss the meeting?
14:02:12 <misc> esker sound copyrighted
14:02:46 <mclasen> it does, indeed
14:03:55 <san101> can't take esker because above, it's a company
14:03:57 <dustymabe> ok I updated the meeting
14:04:00 <dustymabe> in fedocal
14:04:01 <san101> too close to our field
14:04:14 <san101> i did too
14:04:14 <san101> hmmm
14:04:17 <san101> well same change
14:04:52 <san101> uuh now it's an hour earlier for us
14:04:53 <san101> hmmm
14:05:04 <misc> is there some bantu name to say "we are out of good name" :p ?
14:05:19 <mclasen> alright. calling it for now. Everybody please come up with some more suggestions, and pass them to Sanja
14:05:31 <mclasen> #info Esker was too good to be true - copyrighted
14:05:36 <mclasen> #endmeeting