13:01:09 <mclasen> #startmeeting Team Silverblue
13:01:09 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Aug 20 13:01:09 2018 UTC.
13:01:09 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
13:01:09 <zodbot> The chair is mclasen. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
13:01:09 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
13:01:09 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'team_silverblue'
13:01:19 <mclasen> #topic roll call
13:01:34 <mclasen> who do we have today ?
13:02:47 <misc> o/
13:02:53 <dustymabe> .hello2
13:02:55 <zodbot> dustymabe: dustymabe 'Dusty Mabe' <dusty@dustymabe.com>
13:03:20 <misc> .hello2
13:03:21 <zodbot> misc: misc 'None' <misc@zarb.org>
13:03:30 * juhp is lurking
13:04:12 <alciregi> .hello2
13:04:13 <zodbot> alciregi: alciregi 'Alessio Ciregia' <alciregi@gmail.com>
13:04:36 * alciregi is lurking too
13:04:49 <misc> :me is just here for the food
13:05:06 <mclasen> alright, some people are here
13:05:09 <mclasen> do we have topics ?
13:05:12 <mclasen> #topic agenda
13:05:27 <juhp> misc: lol :)
13:05:39 <mclasen> I have a few informational items
13:05:41 <dustymabe> mclasen: /me mostly lurking
13:05:53 <dustymabe> but can help answer releng questions if anyone has any
13:06:06 * aday mostly cheerleader
13:07:23 <mclasen> any other topics suggestions ? if not , I'll just go with what I have
13:07:45 <mclasen> I also asked rishi to come over to tell us about the toolbox, but it might have been too short notice for a monday morning...
13:09:08 <misc> well, I would like to discuss the case of inkskape ( https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/inkscape-on-silverblue-a-few-caveat-to-keep-in-mind/ ), not as a specific case, but as the general workflow when people have suboptimal flatpak and what we can do for it
13:09:24 <misc> (and by discuss, I just mean "bring awareness of the issue", cause I suspect we can't fix it)
13:09:25 <mclasen> first big info is that today is the 1.0 release of flatpak. congrats!
13:09:40 <misc> \o/
13:09:41 <juhp> nice
13:09:47 <mclasen> misc: ok, go first with that
13:09:53 <dustymabe> flatpak 1.0 ++
13:09:56 <mclasen> #info flatpak 1.0 released today
13:09:56 <misc> (see, that's why we have cake)
13:10:08 <mclasen> #topic issues with inkscape flatpak
13:10:15 * mclasen clicks on that link
13:10:51 <misc> so, that's not so much about inkskape more that some software upstream might have bad default or badly interact when in a flatpak
13:11:09 <misc> and while people shouldn't use random packages, we likely all know they will
13:11:14 * dustymabe wonders if sanja is around
13:11:15 <mclasen> yeah, so we should perhaps help the inkscape team be a better player in a flatpak world
13:11:29 <misc> and I suspect that those random package would reflect badly on silverblue
13:11:43 <mclasen> dustymabe: I pinged her
13:12:21 <misc> mclasen: yup, but my main fear is that this one was found serendipitously, and that's not scalable :/
13:12:35 <mclasen> well, software has bugs
13:12:45 <mclasen> using xdg-dirs was best practice before flatpak came along...
13:13:01 * dustymabe brb
13:13:26 <mclasen> I'll look over that thread after the meeting and file a few inkscape issues
13:13:31 <aday> we could certainly add something to the flatpak docs about how to handle it
13:13:32 <misc> yeah, and anything asking to modify /usr is user unfriendly by design
13:13:40 <mclasen> aday: don't we have that already?
13:13:48 <mclasen> I thought we have a whole section on integration ?
13:13:53 <misc> but as a user, I can't really see that before it is too late
13:14:03 <aday> mclasen: from a developer point of view. not so much from a user documentation point of view
13:14:12 <mclasen> I see
13:14:22 <aday> it would basically be a note to say "you need to update your user docs"
13:14:29 <misc> I also suspect that people who did the flatpak package didn't used inkskape as I did
13:14:40 <misc> cause even the designers I spoke with didn't knew that option
13:15:08 <aday> you could argue that apps shouldn't require users to dig into their config data, but that's maybe besides the point
13:15:25 <mclasen> yeah
13:15:50 * sanja is around, just unfortunately held up and lurking. Scrolling back to read.
13:16:36 <mclasen> ok, moving on from inkscape
13:16:45 <mclasen> #topic renames
13:17:12 <mclasen> we renamed the github repositories
13:17:37 <sanja> Yes, we'll reflect that in the links on the website still.
13:17:37 <mclasen> it is now https://github.com/fedora-silverblue
13:17:41 <aday> misc: it's certainly true that there will inevitably friction for users in the transition; docs and guides for users will be important
13:18:18 <mclasen> #info github repositories are now at https://github.com/fedora-silverblue , links will be updated
13:18:37 <dustymabe> weird -- what is https://pagure.io/teamsilverblue ?
13:19:14 * otaylor also thought that was where issues were tracked
13:19:35 <mclasen> we decided to stay on github for now, since pagure is lacking proper namespacing and renaming
13:19:43 <mclasen> and is just generally frustrating
13:19:48 <sanja> yeah, we are still tracking on there - but we need to rename it - which isn't possible in Pagure. So there is no option other than either creating a new one on Pagure or the one on GitHub
13:20:07 <otaylor> to remove the team?
13:20:10 <sanja> for now we created issue-tracker on GitHub and can still create one on Pagure but called fedora-silverblue
13:20:12 <sanja> yes
13:20:24 <sanja> it was because of how things were pre-Summit
13:20:46 * dustymabe would prefer for things to be in one place wherever that place may be
13:21:06 <otaylor> I think if silverblue is integrated into Fedora, having the issue tracker (at least) outside of fedora is considerably more annoying than whatever quirks pagure has
13:21:34 <dustymabe> yeah. the reason we did that for coreos was because of a large community being on GH already for container linux
13:21:36 <sanja> ok, well - since the docs for silverblue will be on fedora-docs, we'll create fedora-silverblue then
13:21:43 <sanja> and we seriously gotta do something about pagure
13:22:05 <dustymabe> sanja: i.e. the rename ?
13:22:08 <sanja> it's furstrating to the point of me not wanting to work with it at all - it takes 4 seconds to load any given page, the search bar doesn't work and several other things.
13:22:11 <sanja> yes, doing it now @dustymabe
13:22:29 <mclasen> it has no grouping, can't rename things, its slow...
13:22:35 <mclasen> but its ours, so yay ?
13:22:39 <dustymabe> mclasen: it does have gropuing ??
13:23:10 <mclasen> just flat namespace from what I can see ?
13:23:12 <sanja> so the namespace thing i figured out and put the docs stuff under fedora-docs namespace
13:23:17 <mclasen> oh, ok
13:23:26 * mclasen takes it back
13:23:29 <mclasen> pagure is cool, it does have grouping
13:23:52 * aday chuckles
13:23:57 <misc> slow is likely something that will be fixed once they start to deploy repospanner to share the load, IIRC
13:24:29 <dustymabe> haha - i'm ok with github, don't get me wrong. I just want to have reasons for using one vs the other
13:25:09 <dustymabe> and definitely think having two places is the worst scenario
13:25:17 <sanja> the reasons are it's unusable and either we take a chunk of time to fix it or it's always one side saying we gotta use it and the other side of being against it
13:25:35 <misc> no, the worst is having 5 place, with 1 being jira and a 2nd being bugzilla :p
13:25:38 <sanja> lol
13:26:18 <aday> all the levels of hell
13:26:32 <sanja> yeah
13:26:36 <sanja> well so what do we do
13:26:45 <sanja> i've deposited clear usability problems before already with several people
13:26:47 <dustymabe> ehh. unstable isn't a word I would use to describe pagure.. slow at times, yes. lacking a few features, yes.
13:26:55 <sanja> unusuable not unstable
13:26:57 <sanja> it's very stable
13:26:58 <sanja> but you don
13:27:02 <sanja> sorry enter press
13:27:09 <dustymabe> ahh. sorry - i misread that word
13:27:12 <sanja> no problem
13:27:22 <sanja> still, either we fix things or ...well, you know it's just not fun to use at all
13:27:29 <mclasen> I don't think we need to rush into moving things from github to pagure. the rename is good, in any case
13:27:35 <misc> I suspect it might also be slower from Europe than US ? IIRC, that's hosted in the Oregon univrsity lab and connectivity wasn't great :/
13:27:38 <sanja> there's not reward or incentive for outside of fedora users and even some fedora people use it grudgingly. counting myself as fedora people.
13:27:44 <dustymabe> misc: good point
13:28:03 <mclasen> and given that sanja is doing most of the docs work, I would think her opinion on the usability of it matters...
13:29:48 <mclasen> any more thoughts on this ?
13:30:19 <aday> just pick one
13:30:34 <sanja> well can we improve pagure?
13:30:38 <sanja> what are the incentives for using it?
13:30:53 <sanja> other than someone at some point decided it's what we use in fedora and then some people decided not to anyway?
13:31:27 <sanja> i'm happy to use it if we can have an actual roadmap of we're fixing the search bar, we're fixing the connectivity, we're allowing renaming and it doesn't take 2 years to fix all of those
13:31:38 <mclasen> its not like we're the odd ones out ... anaconda is on github too, afaik
13:31:45 <aday> if you were really concerned about the choice, you could write up your requires, review the options, speak to whoever it is maintains pagure
13:31:54 <misc> I guess someone should bring that to Fedora infra
13:31:56 <aday> but yea, i'd just pick one :)
13:32:11 <dustymabe> sanja: i think generally the two benefits people see are that
13:32:13 <misc> Centos is going to use pagure too, so there will be incentive to fix it
13:32:14 <dustymabe> - it's open source
13:32:22 <dustymabe> - we can add features that we need to it
13:32:34 <dustymabe> i'm not arguing for or against those reasons, just stating what I think most people believe
13:32:56 <dustymabe> there are a lot of projects still on github, but I think most of them were around before pagure existed
13:32:56 <mclasen> adding features is a theory unless resources are supplied
13:33:26 <misc> but we do not know until we ask
13:33:37 <misc> pagure did got feature requested
13:33:37 <dustymabe> again. i'm not saying we should use pagure. just I think the decision should be justified and documented somewhere. because people are going to ask the question
13:34:01 <misc> I guess slowness could be documented and measured
13:34:11 <sanja> ok I think this should be a priority in general for Fedora - to not tell people to use Pagure without fixing the issues. such things are important as it's an everyday tool and shouldn't just be imposed without giving clear benefits
13:34:24 <sanja> we did document and justify for coreos
13:34:40 <sanja> let's do an overall pagure thing ...i already startd that when other people asked me
13:34:40 <misc> having signle account management is a benefit, IMHO
13:34:45 <dustymabe> indeed. we had a community vote, which I think makes sense
13:34:46 <sanja> misc yes I do like that
13:34:56 <misc> and if we want to be Fedora, that also mean using Fedora tool, or all kind of stuff break
13:34:58 <sanja> ok, action item for me
13:35:00 <mclasen> ok, so lets take the action to justify and document
13:35:17 <sanja> I'll write that up, send it to everyone in workstation group, silverblue people here, and maybe some others
13:35:19 <sanja> including Matthew and Bex
13:35:24 <mclasen> #action matthias and sanja to justify and document staying with github for now
13:35:35 <sanja> nnnonono not justifying to stay with github
13:35:41 <sanja> rather initiate discussion about pagure
13:35:44 <mclasen> #undo
13:35:44 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: ACTION by mclasen at 13:35:24 : matthias and sanja to justify and document staying with github for now
13:35:51 <sanja> and make a clear decision where there is no more questions about oh but why not pagure
13:36:00 <mclasen> #action sanja to initiate discussion around pagure usability issues
13:36:11 <sanja> some actual research and measurement including for APAC people, UTC, not just US
13:36:15 <sanja> yeah
13:36:27 <mclasen> good point about asia
13:36:30 <sanja> ok, moving on from the pagure discussion, we'll not have a decision yet then
13:36:42 <sanja> I have created docs and will populate them with the docs template
13:37:00 <sanja> this week we should have a kubernetes on fedora guide published which is already written, just needs to be in the right format in the containers repo and it's good to go
13:37:02 <sanja> chris negus wrote it
13:37:06 <sanja> and several other docs we'll use
13:37:18 <sanja> there's fedora-docs/coreos /silverblue and /containers
13:37:21 <sanja> which will be in the main fedora docs
13:37:26 <sanja> it's asciidoc format
13:37:35 <sanja> and i'll write a separate email about it to the mailing lists and forums once it's all done
13:37:39 <sanja> this week or next at the latest
13:37:40 <mclasen> do we have 'how to contribute?' hints on the docs website ?
13:37:48 <sanja> see above - end of this week, maybe next
13:37:51 <mclasen> those will need updating, I guess (if they exit)
13:37:52 <sanja> proper readme and how to
13:37:55 <mclasen> exist
13:39:00 <mclasen> sanja: any more on docs from you ?
13:39:57 <mclasen> moving on then
13:40:02 <mclasen> #topic composes
13:40:06 <mclasen> still broken :(
13:40:10 <sanja> :?
13:40:10 <mclasen> with a different reason every day
13:40:11 <sanja> :/
13:40:41 <dustymabe> i'd like to thank mclasen for starting to look at them
13:40:59 <dustymabe> unfortunately this is the most turbulent time (right after branching)
13:41:02 <mclasen> I guess there's nothing we can do other than fixing breakages every day until we get lucky
13:41:19 <dustymabe> mclasen: yeah it's a good idea to get all our ducks in a row before branching
13:41:32 <dustymabe> and that way we know what breakage is because of branching and what isn't
13:41:38 <dustymabe> but it's ok, we're starting to look at it now
13:41:58 <dustymabe> we pretty much just have to follow along and fix issues we find.. the releng team will probably be churning out two a day for a while
13:42:01 <mclasen> todays culprit is grub, so I'll find pjones later
13:42:30 <dustymabe> mclasen: if you find any issues please add them to the issue tracker even if it's just comments
13:42:35 <sanja> we need to also rename everything everywhre
13:42:36 <mclasen> ok, sure
13:42:45 <dustymabe> sanja: we've started the rename in the releng side
13:42:50 <dustymabe> mohan helped us a bit there
13:42:53 <sanja> including either sunsetting the fedora-atomic-wg on wiki (no rename possible on the page itself)
13:43:00 <sanja> awesome, thanks dustymabe
13:43:14 * dustymabe just referring to FAW to silverblue renaming
13:43:15 <sanja> i'm looking to edit the reference on pagure to exchange the names where possible
13:43:24 <sanja> yeah dustymabe +1
13:43:34 <sanja> for pagure, I'll look into it, for the wiki..i think otaylor owns it?
13:43:59 <sanja> so we could delete the page now that we have an actual website and forum? or create a new wiki page with the right name
13:44:05 <sanja> no team, just fedora silverblue
13:44:54 <x3mlinux> o/
13:45:01 <x3mlinux> .hello x3mboy
13:45:02 * otaylor can take an action item to add redirects and/or notes to all the atomic-workstaiton stuff on the wiki
13:45:02 <zodbot> x3mlinux: x3mboy 'Eduard Lucena' <eduardlucena@gmail.com>
13:45:12 <mclasen> replacing the wiki content with a stub that just points to the website seems best ? reducing redundancy
13:45:34 <mclasen> action: owen to add redirects and/or notes to all the faw pages on the wiki
13:45:43 <mclasen> #action:  owen to add redirects and/or notes to all the faw pages on the wiki
13:46:40 <mclasen> going back to general info items: I gave 2 1/2 silverblue presentations since the last meeting
13:46:47 <sanja> hooray mclasen
13:46:55 * misc did only 1
13:47:01 <mclasen> at flock, gnome.asia and devconf.us
13:47:36 <sanja> hooray misc
13:47:40 <mclasen> we should get all those added to the website, as recordings become available
13:47:54 <mclasen> #action matthias to add recent silverblue talks to the website
13:48:05 <sanja> oh and we've grown quite a bit on twitter both @flatpakapps and @teamsilverblue
13:48:24 <mclasen> in my devconf.us presentation I talked a bit about the toolbox pet container that Debarshi is working on
13:48:28 <sanja> which means we also have to put in some effort to get good docs up ...and fix bugs
13:48:40 <sanja> oh any news on that mclasen?
13:49:06 <mclasen> rishi put a tarball out for people to try it. I'll push him to get it into git this week
13:49:21 <misc> any write up on this ?
13:49:23 <mclasen> of course that'll bring up the darn pagure-or-github question again :)
13:50:06 <mclasen> misc: no writeup yet, but a blog post about it would be the next priority after getting an initial release out
13:50:47 <dustymabe> i know the FCOS group is interested in a toolbox pet container too
13:50:57 <mclasen> fcos ?
13:51:05 <dustymabe> fedora coreos
13:51:14 * mclasen hadn't heard that abbreviation yet
13:51:27 <dustymabe> and we should probably overlap with the containers SIG as there will be people interested there as well
13:51:32 * misc did heard it
13:51:32 <mclasen> woudl be good to cooperate, yes
13:51:38 * dustymabe has heard walters talk about the toolbox container before
13:51:52 * dustymabe tries to find a link to an issue that is open about it
13:53:11 <dustymabe> https://github.com/openshift/os/issues/78 -- we should probably migrate that to https://github.com/coreos/fedora-coreos-tracker/issues
13:53:35 <mclasen> last info item from me: I have a stack of silverblue stickers on my desk here, so if stickers are needed somewhere, let me know
13:54:15 <mclasen> unfortunately, i forgot to bring them to my devconf talk, that would have been smart
13:54:33 <mclasen> #info matthias has silverblue stickers
13:54:42 <misc> I also do have them :p
13:55:01 <misc> if people can catch me, I can give them (but I am the IRL version of Carmen Sandiago...)
13:55:37 <sanja> more swag will be ordered this month so if you know you need it somewhere
13:55:41 <sanja> one more thing from me
13:55:49 <sanja> container camp uk is coming up, september in london
13:56:02 <sanja> if anyone wants to go, help be at the booth and demo silverblue or talk about coreos -> please let me know
13:56:19 <sanja> misc or aday or others who are already in europe preferred
13:56:29 <mclasen> I will remember to bring stickers to my next silverblue talk ... in 3 weeks in Denver
13:56:50 <mclasen> #info misc has stickers too
13:57:08 * ksinny waves
13:57:37 <misc> https://2018.container.camp/
13:57:45 <misc> 6-7 september
13:57:48 * sanja has to go pick up her son from school
13:57:59 <sanja> fill me in if there's anything else needed, gotta rush
13:58:02 * sanja waves.
13:58:14 <mclasen> coming up on the hour anyway
13:58:23 <sanja> (write an email if you wanna do the container camp thing)
13:58:23 <mclasen> last call
13:58:25 * mclasen rings the bell
13:58:45 <mclasen> hi, ksinny!
13:59:15 <ksinny> mclasen: Hey!
13:59:17 <mclasen> ksinny: I gave all the mugs away already
13:59:24 <ksinny> Good to meet some of you at Flock :)
13:59:34 <ksinny> awesome mclasen++
13:59:35 <zodbot> ksinny: Karma for mclasen changed to 4 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
13:59:47 <mclasen> #endmeeting