13:00:24 #startmeeting workstation 13:00:25 Meeting started Mon Oct 28 13:00:24 2019 UTC. 13:00:25 This meeting is logged and archived in a public location. 13:00:25 The chair is aday. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 13:00:25 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 13:00:25 The meeting name has been set to 'workstation' 13:00:38 .hello chrismurphy 13:00:39 cmurf: chrismurphy 'Chris Murphy' 13:00:47 .hello aday 13:00:49 aday: aday 'None' 13:01:46 that's only 4 people 13:02:06 morning 13:02:10 .hello petersen 13:02:11 juhp[m]: petersen 'Jens Petersen' 13:02:16 6 13:02:37 .hello2 13:02:38 langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' 13:03:06 ok, i think that's quorum 13:03:22 #topic agenda 13:03:53 is there anything urgent? otherwise i thought we could just go through our tickets in order of last modified 13:04:15 quick, vote to assign all of the issues to mcatanzaro! 13:04:45 meeting tickets by last modified is https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issues?status=Open&tags=meeting&order_key=last_updated&order=desc 13:05:17 There are a lot of issued tagged for meeting 13:05:24 s/issued/issues 13:06:03 ok, if no one has any other ideas... 13:06:34 Sounds good 13:06:36 aday: seems reasonable 13:06:47 #topic "Approve filtered view of flathub as third-party repo?" https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/108 13:07:59 there are some +1s in the ticket. it sounds like there's a consensus brewing there 13:08:03 .hello ngompa 13:08:04 Son_Goku: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' 13:08:12 kalev, you mentioned some potential sticking points? 13:08:27 what sticking points? 13:08:36 kalev, https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/108#comment-604504 13:08:39 sorry I'm late, I had internet issues 13:09:33 I'm reading that comment and I think they're good questions, but I don't have enough information to decide one way or another. 13:09:53 yes, I am not sure either 13:10:55 maybe if we address each question individually. "should we migrate existing users that are using steam from rpmfusion to steam from flathub?" 13:11:13 Could someone summarise briefly? 13:11:19 sounds tricky to do in practice. what's the risk if we don't migrate them? 13:11:44 juhp[m], summarise #108? 13:11:52 if we don't migrate them, then we definitely need to keep the rpmfusion steam repository so that people who use the rpm version can still get updates 13:11:55 migrating sounds difficult at best 13:11:55 aday, I would say no 13:12:11 I'm generally in favor of migration to new ways of doing things, the more users are on the same page, the better. BUT where people think they're getting their software is a bit tricky if we silently move them from source A to source B. 13:12:13 the Steam flatpak is demonstratably worse than the RPM 13:12:23 at least in my experience 13:12:31 * mcatanzaro late, apologies 13:12:34 So is my concern the silent migration from A to B? Maybe. And if they were notified would I be in favor of the migration? 13:12:36 .hello catanzaro 13:12:37 mcatanzaro: catanzaro 'Michael Catanzaro' 13:12:42 Son_Goku: that's a very negative way to look at things 13:12:45 Son_Goku: it doesn't matte on Silverblue 13:12:50 matter 13:12:52 are we really so confident in the flathub implementation that we want to force people out of rpms? last time I tried the flatpak of steam I had problems 13:12:55 mclasen, we're not talking about Silverblue 13:12:58 we're talking about everything 13:13:02 I am 13:13:14 mclasen, in the Silverblue case, I thought we're already using the flatpak 13:13:21 in what sense ? 13:13:22 the ticket is all things though, right 13:13:24 oh wait is the context of that issue exclusively Silverblue, exclusively Workstation, or both? 13:13:32 it's not like the repos are shipped or easy to enable on Silverblue 13:13:38 what do you mean by 'we are using flatpak' ? 13:13:47 flathub is not enabled by default, which is what this is all about 13:13:57 mclasen, we're not telling people how to enable the steam repo on Silverblue and overlay steam rpm 13:14:06 so they *have* to get the flatpak 13:14:09 we're also not telling them how to enable flathub 13:14:30 so what, it's easier to discover enabling flathub on Silverblue than enabling rpmfusion 13:14:51 sure, it sucks a bit less 13:14:58 kalev, my view is consistent with my experience in using both 13:15:22 sometimes I wonder if any of y'all actually _use_ steam or play games for the fun of it 13:15:37 Son_Goku, if there are issues with using steam from flathub, that would be useful info to have in the ticket :) 13:15:50 ideally with links to issue reports, obvs. 13:15:50 aday, one day, I'll sit down and put them in there 13:15:53 * otaylor is here now - sorry to be late 13:16:00 but you're going to be very unhappy with me once I list them 13:16:07 allocating enough disk if you have your drive sliced up is tough 13:16:11 I don't use steam, for what it's worth, so it would be very good if you could list the issues 13:16:16 thanks 13:16:28 a lot of games have trouble working from the flatpak'd steam 13:16:36 and yeah, the disk space issue is a huge problem 13:16:44 yeah.. and saved games in particular (iirc) 13:16:46 we should certainly make sure that whatever solution we decide on works well in practice 13:16:47 "the disk space issue" ? 13:16:58 Son_Goku: why would disk space be an issue? flatpaks store data in $HOME 13:17:03 * mclasen feels we're off into the weeds 13:17:09 * kalev agrees. 13:17:14 * cmurf agrees with mclasen 13:17:19 that's the problem.. normally I have a "games disk" 13:17:27 likewise 13:17:39 it's a lot easier to do with normal Steam, but flatpak steam disallows this 13:17:51 we left of working through the questions that kalev raised in https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/108#comment-604504 13:17:51 well.. u cna do it :) 13:18:00 * mclasen should not have picked steam as first case 13:18:01 langdon: sort of :P 13:18:03 one of those was migration. where i think the answer was: probably too hard 13:18:04 ha 13:18:07 haha 13:18:20 I also think migration is not recommended 13:18:24 yeah 13:18:29 the second question was "Should we remove rpmfusion steam from 3rd party repos now that we have flathub steam?" 13:18:32 okok so I think we need a bit of philosophy and ideology, because the working group is all about making choices, more than it is about having discussions, right? 13:18:35 we have sophisticated users (mostly) 13:18:36 aday: no 13:18:42 and if migration is not recommended, then we definitely should not remove rpmfusion steam repo 13:18:45 so no to both questions 13:18:49 the problem is too many of us need to have a discussion in order to get to enough awareness to choose 13:19:07 I kinda think we need something out of band for the usual meetings, which are about making decisions 13:19:27 something like an on-boarding session 13:19:38 I would like more "recommendation".. like I wish g-software treated al the same software as the same with different install options 13:19:49 which could have a "recco" 13:19:54 There's a LOT going on in Fedora that not everyone is really on the same page about 13:19:56 langdon, yeah, that'd be quite nice 13:20:01 cmurf, that sounds like a useful discussion to have elsewhere 13:20:02 cmurf: hmm, not sure - I think meetings are in fact for discussion, we just have to keep discussion focused on the decisions, and not drift off into chatting :-) 13:20:04 or maybe later 13:20:19 do we have any other points for #108? 13:20:28 cmurf I think u described Fedora all the time :) 13:20:32 aday: Yes, better discuss whether to have discussions elsewhere somewhere else? :P 13:20:53 sa let me do a proposal that people can vote on 13:20:57 what i'm hearing is - let's go forward with a filtered flathub, but we probably need to come up with a list of apps and test that they work better than the RPM version 13:21:07 aday, yes 13:21:17 we should also have a trivial way to disable the filter 13:21:24 so that all variants of all the things show up 13:21:54 proposal: #agreed Allow Steam, PyCharm, and NVidia runtime extension from flathub flathub remote. Approve adding filtered flathub remote. 13:22:06 +1 to my own proposal :) 13:22:10 -1 13:22:16 Hm but it sounds like Son_Goku has the most experience with Steam (i.e. is the only one here who uses it?) so if he thinks the RPM is better, then I would defer to his experience. 13:22:24 Anyone else use Steam? 13:22:32 it sounds like langdon does ;) 13:22:47 mcatanzaro: exactly, and I don't use Steam either so I can't argue any of the points either way 13:22:49 me (but not as often as I would like :) ) 13:23:00 Yes sorry, I read the backlog a bit quickly 13:23:00 I can schedule this for correction though :D 13:23:11 I'm okay with the nvidia extension 13:23:23 kalev, would you be ok with us doing some testing on those, before we make a decision? 13:23:30 of course! 13:23:36 NVidia runtime extension seems like common sense. And if we are not aware of any particular problems with PyCharm, that makes sense to me too.... 13:23:44 I need to play with the pycharm flatpak 13:23:45 kalev: what's the experience wrt getting the whole flathub added? 13:23:49 I currently use the pycharm rpm at work a lot 13:24:03 the pycharm flatpak presumably has the typical IDE issues 13:24:04 otaylor: not sure how it would work once we have the filtered remote 13:24:18 kalev: that seems to be something that we need to figure out before adding the filtered remote 13:24:38 otaylor, do we have a list of those anywhere? I've mostly avoided doing development with flatpaks, as the experience has been historically quite poor 13:24:46 "Typical IDE issues" OK, makes sense that would require further investigation 13:24:52 I suspect that pycharm has the same problem as other ides.. no extensions.. so I would not recommend that either (but haven't tried pycharm) 13:25:07 oh, yeah, then we probably shouldn't 13:25:09 kalev: can you expand on "not sure how it would work" ? 13:25:10 extensions are kinda important in the intellij world 13:25:16 Son_Goku: the issue you have is that your environment inside the flatpak has no visibility to the system development environment 13:25:17 all ides 13:25:27 otaylor, ugh, that's no bueno 13:25:30 aday: I am not sure how the workflow in gnome-software should be to go from filtered flathub to full flathub 13:25:35 which is both the benefit and the problem :) 13:25:42 aday: or in flathub CLI 13:25:47 which on Silverblue you may be willing to jump through hoops to work around, but I don't see as viable for a traditional fedora install 13:25:57 kalev, oh ok. i'd imagined that they would show up as different sources 13:25:57 "I am not sure how the workflow in gnome-software should be to go from filtered flathub to full flathub" <-- seems important to figure out 13:26:15 aday: sure, and that's a valid solution I think :) 13:26:20 "Fedora Approved Flathub" and "Regular Flathub" 13:26:23 mcatanzaro, yeah, and I've got some interest in this for... other reasons 13:26:23 nod 13:26:35 you can guess, as we talked about that at Flock ;) 13:26:38 aday I agree with something like that distinction 13:26:41 otaylor vs Code is doing some interesting things with dev in a remote container that seem to overlap with solutions to this problem 13:26:58 The nvidia extension, would that appear in GNOME Software (in which case it could be quite confusing for users to distinguish between the flatpak extension and the host driver) ? 13:27:13 I don't know 13:27:20 kalev: entirely different sources could be fine - would need to test a) that GNOME Software doesn't say "you already have this source added" b) individual flatpaks in both look reasonable 13:27:28 the provinance, or responsible party, of these apps is uncertain to me 13:27:50 ok, it sounds like we have some next steps identified 13:28:00 where to file bugs has always been jumping through hoops, but much more so with flatpaks 13:28:00 I think provenance and responsibilities are supposed to be weaker with flatpaks? 13:28:08 I'll note that in pracice, mcatanzaro already merged the filtered flathub remote, so it's already added 13:28:23 the whole idea is that we get to blame somebody else for our problems 13:28:33 since we can't control the code anymore 13:28:41 Also at least the RPMs are signed, right? Are flatpaks consistently signed? 13:28:51 well, flatpaks require signatures in ostree form 13:28:56 not sure if they do in OCI mode 13:29:18 actually, I'd be surprised if they do, since even containers don't have digital signatures or verification 13:29:28 Son_Goku: I think thats a misleading statement 13:29:32 (one of many reasons why I'm continually baffled that people think OCI containers are good...) 13:29:56 I also think it's an unsolved problem where to store flatpaks, I don't like either the $HOME or $ROOT methods - they each have drawbacks 13:29:57 Son_Goku: but at least we know where you stand 13:29:57 #action Everyone to test and identify any critical issues with Steam, PyCharm and NVIDEA from Flathub; add the results to #108 13:30:17 mclasen, I know exactly how this will work out as we move to Flathub 13:30:17 son_goku have u met a developer? 13:30:24 langdon, heh yes 13:30:24 #action aday and kalev to provide more details on what the gnome-software UX for a filtered Flathub would look like 13:30:38 langdon, also, I *am* a developer... ;) 13:30:42 :) 13:30:47 I'm also *gasp* a game dev :D 13:31:01 anything else on this topic, before we move on? 13:31:03 I think you mean "cowboy" 13:31:07 :P 13:31:17 aday: Yes 13:31:18 Son_Goku: lets drop this before it devolves into name calling 13:31:21 and if we could keep the chatter down... 13:31:31 anyway, we're done with this topic 13:31:33 Given the direction this discussion took, I think it makes sense to revert the change for now 13:31:47 If we decide to approve it later we can always un-revert ;) 13:32:07 mcatanzaro, does that have any practical consequences? does it need a vote? 13:32:25 did we even implement this? 13:32:34 iirc, I didn't see any implementation of the filtered flathub yet 13:32:44 yes, it was implemented 13:32:46 Son_Goku, please read the issue 13:33:07 ah, it was merged two weeks ago 13:33:09 that's why I hadn't seen it 13:33:16 It was merged I gather 13:33:19 I haven't updated my machines in a month 13:33:55 mcatanzaro, can you explain why we should revert? 13:34:30 I think the vote count is exactly 0 if we go back full circle 13:34:32 aday, we could allow apps like vscode, which have no rpm analog right now 13:34:33 aday: Well based on today's discussion it sounds like this likely won't be approved 13:34:35 +1 and -1 from the start 13:34:49 There are concerns with both Steam (implemented) and Pycharm (not implemented) 13:35:07 yep 13:35:14 but there are things in flathub that we have no rpm analog that we should allow 13:35:38 mcatanzaro, but what's the harm of leaving what's been done in place? 13:35:54 also, query, `deny *` on flatpak.filter, does that block from *all sources*? 13:36:01 Well if Son_Goku thinks the flathub Steam is worse than our old RPM Steam then leaving the change seems clearly harmful to me. 13:36:03 err flathub.filter 13:36:09 Also we currently have two different Steams which doesn't make sense (I missed that) 13:36:22 :/ 13:36:28 is this on all workstation or just silverblue? 13:36:38 I'm not saying "let's not use flathub" just "let's slow down and continue discussion" 13:36:39 langdon, this currently applies everywhere 13:37:00 k 13:37:07 well, everything shipping fedora-workstation-repositories 13:37:39 we don't ship fedora-workstation-repositories anywhere right now though, which brings us to next meeting item: 13:37:43 https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/105 13:37:50 cschalle: you around by any chance? 13:37:53 Son_Goku, it'd be helpful to make a list of problems with the Steam flatpak so we can discuss and consider how serious they are... it doesn't need to be perfect but shouldn't be significantly worse than the RPM for us to switch IMO 13:38:17 mcatanzaro, I'll work on enumerating a list 13:38:21 So proposal: mcatanzaro to revert addition of filtered flathub remote to fedora-workstation-repositiories 13:38:28 please change the topic if we're moving on 13:38:33 and to make it fair, I'll start over and test from scratch 13:38:47 I want to make sure we get an update list, not something from a few months ago 13:39:57 I'll give it a try too.. despite the risk of being sucked in to civ6 :) 13:40:04 kalev, i'm confused now. #105 seems different 13:40:12 Son_Goku: filters are per remote 13:40:18 mclasen, nice, thanks 13:40:26 fedora-workstation-repositories do get used, no? 13:40:29 the filter in the package only affects the flathub remote that it is associated with 13:40:40 mclasen, and I'm guessing it does that by the filename, right? 13:41:16 mcatanzaro, if you want to revert, then let's just put it to a vote. it's still not clear to me what the practical consequences are though 13:41:27 flatpak keeps a copy of the file 13:41:37 aday: Practical consequence is F31 users get RPM version of Steam instead of flathub version 13:41:51 silverblue users don't 13:42:33 Yes, we know it's a problem for Silverblue 13:42:38 ah, if we revert silverblue users need to manually enable flathub 13:42:43 mcatanzaro: well, we don't add *either* rpmfusion or flathub (unfiltered) by default 13:43:10 otaylor: We do have Steam already in fedora-workstation-repos as an RPM, though 13:43:12 aday: yes 13:43:16 mcatanzaro: Oh, ah, yeah 13:44:24 if we have concerns about individual apps, we can just adjust the list of what's filtered, no? 13:44:24 Then in a couple weeks we can go over Son_Goku's list of issues and decide whether to switch to flathub for F32, and how the upgrade process would work (I think it's OK to have none for something like this), and what the user experience in GNOME Software will be for switching from filtered flathub to full flathub... it seems like far too many questions to solve in the next 15 minutes :) 13:44:37 yeah 13:45:06 aday, yes, but currently Steam is the only app that is permitted, so for the time being... 13:46:05 fun limbo here, no support for adding filtered flathub, and no support for removing 13:47:13 i'm at a loss as to how this is significant for silverblue, if it's just steam 13:48:13 kalev, if we get an update out today it should only be a problem for beta testers, let's not worry too much about it 13:48:38 for info which runtime is using the flathub version of steam ? is the runtime built with a recent version of mesa ? 13:49:26 mcatanzaro: what update out? 13:49:44 kalev, an update to revert the change to fedora-workstation-repositories 13:50:03 nobody seems to agree to revert it, from what I can tell 13:50:03 is there a way to fully decouple silverblue and workstation? i.e. avoid silverblue users having to manually enable flathub if we revert flatpak'd steam on workstation 13:50:45 kalev, yeah if we have no agreement to make the change OR to revert the change, that means change stays I guess 13:51:03 yeah :) 13:51:10 maybe we should just vote to see where people are 13:51:15 cmurf we could subpackage out the flatpak source 13:51:19 cmurf, surely we could construct such a way, but it doesn't currently exist and will take more than nine minutes to do :) 13:51:20 and then have silverblue include that 13:51:24 i don't like the idea of degrading the experience for workstation users 13:51:40 didn't I make the filter a subpackage already ? 13:51:44 * mclasen forgets 13:53:02 making it a subpackage seems counter productive if we don't have agreement to ship it by default 13:53:04 Is reverting the sanest thing right now? I was kind of expecting a vote 13:53:28 it seems uncontroversial that Workstation should use RPM'd Steam, if it works better than the flatpak'd Steam 13:53:51 cmurf +1 13:54:02 vote: #agreed Revert https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/fedora-workstation-repositories/pull-request/7 13:54:43 And that leaves Silverblue using flatpak'd Steam and a point of comparison to get it to some level of acceptable parity, whether that's 100% or 80% I suppose is up to each voting member 13:55:00 +1 13:55:09 cmurf: that's could be handled by the filter? 13:55:16 or should I be acking that haha 13:55:28 -1 13:55:30 juhp[m] if it can, great 13:56:44 mcatanzaro, otaylor, cschalle, Son_Goku, kalev: please vote 13:56:54 +1 13:56:59 +1 13:57:04 +1 13:57:13 +1 - too many unanswered questions (though I'd like to know what ended up in F31 final) 13:57:22 +1 13:57:24 +1 13:57:33 +1 too 13:57:35 ok, vote passed. you ok to do that, mcatanzaro ? 13:57:36 +1, sadly (I'd like to see it added) 13:57:45 Yes I'll do that 13:57:52 otaylor: F31 final didn't get it. It only ever landed in rawhide (F32) 13:58:04 #action mcatanzaro to revert https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/fedora-workstation-repositories/pull-request/7 13:58:16 Aha 13:58:28 we should still follow up with the other action items and chase down the issues for each of the filtered apps 13:58:31 With an emphasis on this being mainly for further discussion, not necessarily because we don't want to use flathub in the future 13:58:32 kalev: let's work through the issues and get it unreverted asap! :-) 13:58:38 otaylor: yes! 13:58:46 agreed 13:58:58 only 2 minutes left. let's bring this to a close 13:59:23 a general info note: I'm working on F31 flatpaks today, moving flatpak'd gnome apps to the new F31 flatpak runtime 13:59:24 please take the time to read over the other issues and continue the discussion there 13:59:43 https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issues?status=Open&tags=meeting&order_key=last_updated&order=desc 13:59:43 can we vote on 109 in the ticket? at least until the backlog is cleared? we clearly have a lot to discuss and decide. 14:00:09 cmurf, yes, let's try 14:00:16 Looks like the flathub change was only made for F32, not for F31, so not much urgency after all 14:00:22 #endmeeting