14:00:52 #startmeeting Workstation WG 14:00:52 Meeting started Mon Nov 18 14:00:52 2019 UTC. 14:00:52 This meeting is logged and archived in a public location. 14:00:52 The chair is kalev. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 14:00:52 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 14:00:52 The meeting name has been set to 'workstation_wg' 14:00:52 #meetingname workstation 14:00:52 The meeting name has been set to 'workstation' 14:00:57 #topic Roll call 14:01:00 .hello catanzaro 14:01:01 mcatanzaro: catanzaro 'Michael Catanzaro' 14:01:01 who's around today? 14:01:17 .hello aday 14:01:19 aday: aday 'None' 14:01:30 help me. i'm so empty inside 14:01:41 ha :) 14:01:56 .hello chrismurphy 14:01:57 cmurf: chrismurphy 'Chris Murphy' 14:02:02 #chair mcatanzaro aday cmurf 14:02:02 Current chairs: aday cmurf kalev mcatanzaro 14:02:31 * kalev waits for a few more people to show up. 14:04:10 aday pinged cschalle, but I can't see anybody else missing on irc 14:04:39 6h11m remaining in this flight 14:04:58 plenty to finish the meeting! 14:05:19 that's 5 with Son_Goku 14:05:20 #chair Son_Goku 14:05:20 Current chairs: Son_Goku aday cmurf kalev mcatanzaro 14:05:25 great, let's get started then 14:05:47 aaaaand cmurf is gone 14:05:59 .hello ngompa 14:06:00 Son_Goku: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' 14:06:07 typically you count quorum from the start of the meeting? :) 14:06:10 I'm looking at the tickets with meeting tag and nothing particularly pressing stands out to me 14:06:14 aday: I don't know :) 14:06:33 there's two tickets that we keep tabling that needs cschalle 14:06:44 famous last words he says 14:07:09 more than the disconnect, i'm troubled by 100% CPU used by this webchat tab... 14:07:35 #info table "#84 Automatically install the OpenH264 codecs" and "#105 Ship fedora-workstation-repositories on install media" until we have cschalle 14:07:59 #chair petersen 14:07:59 Current chairs: Son_Goku aday cmurf kalev mcatanzaro petersen 14:08:15 ha, managed to #chair him between disconnects 14:08:54 anybody have any pet issues to discuss today? 14:09:15 if not, I suppose we could discuss nano a bit more that ended inconclusively last time? 14:09:19 Hi 14:09:26 #chair juhp[m] 14:09:26 Current chairs: Son_Goku aday cmurf juhp[m] kalev mcatanzaro petersen 14:09:32 .hello petersen 14:09:33 juhp[m]: petersen 'Jens Petersen' 14:09:49 we have a quorum 14:09:58 indeed 14:10:18 #topic Install nano by default (should we make it the default terminal editor?) 14:10:21 https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/103 14:10:50 so, two weeks ago we had a narrow +4 vote to add nano to the default install (but not change $EDITOR) 14:11:02 What's the vote tally? Last I checked it was +5 to add nano. 14:11:04 since then, aday voiced concerns that it's pointless to just add another editor 14:11:12 sec, phone 14:11:34 * aday notes that voting is only needed if we fail to reach consensus 14:12:14 cmurf: I counted +4 last time, but I may have miscoutned 14:12:26 nano is small, common, and has a self-descriptive interface, so i still think it's a low cost high value addition; perhaps then revisit the default text editor next cycle? 14:12:38 yes, I think I agree with cmurf 14:13:13 it's an easy way to appease people who are coming from ubuntu/debian to make sure the cli editor they are used to is available 14:13:23 vim is great, but is ... not that beginner friendly 14:13:39 imo, vim is a terrible default editor :) 14:13:40 we can easily ship both and make more users happy 14:13:50 Right 14:14:02 Our default editor is not vim, it is vi 14:14:10 vi is harder than vim, like vim except you can't see what mode you're in ;) 14:14:10 but changing the default I disagree with. I think vim is a great default editor as we are targetting programmers, much more so than nano 14:14:19 Actually it should be a fedora default, not WS default 14:14:37 kalev, I've met more programmers who have no idea what the hell to do in vim 14:15:02 vim knowledge is a very weird expectation from developers 14:15:04 vim is big, I used to suffering vi ;) 14:15:14 Anyway no strong preference from me here, as far as I'm concerned users who are opening terminals don't need handholding 14:15:21 * kalev nods. 14:15:28 if you want big you can always go to vile 14:15:36 mcatanzaro, i would strongly disagree with that 14:15:39 smooge, even bigger emacs-evil :) 14:15:48 anyway, I think we are in a wild agreement here to add nano as another editor 14:16:07 it's really common for people to have to use a terminal for config 14:16:09 aday: do you agree with what I wrote above how it makes sense to add nano as a second editor? 14:16:13 just look online at all the tutorials and guides 14:17:06 yep, that's a good point: online tutorials that say 'nano /etc/blah-blah' all start working if we include nano 14:17:16 i like that 14:17:28 smooge: lol 14:17:39 kalev, i don't remember seeing tutorials that specify an editor 14:18:06 aday: what did you mean then with "just look online at all the tutorials and guides" above? 14:18:39 i meant that a lot of people get exposed to the terminal 14:18:49 ahh, ok 14:19:30 quite a lot of them mention nano 14:19:50 it's an intuitive simple editor and it's included by default in all distro families except for RH and SUSE 14:19:52 and again, i'd consider myself to be a reasonably technical user who struggles to use vim 14:20:03 I personally struggle with vim too 14:20:08 and i wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of other users like that 14:20:08 I am okay with adding nano - though I don't feel strongly about it, I just don't see it as a WS specific issue 14:20:15 so i could do with some handholding :) 14:20:29 Are we thinking to add it only for WS? 14:20:38 yes 14:20:48 i think we should concentrate on the question of the default first 14:21:11 otherwise we'll end up having conflicting discussions 14:21:22 question: do we have any concern with Workstation differing from Server? 14:21:28 Me too, I should try nano again perhaps 14:21:32 either with respect to including nano or making it the default? 14:21:49 I think we should consider proposing it as a Fedora-wide default 14:21:57 there's no particularly good reason to not try 14:22:09 agree 14:22:18 If we are going to add it, it should be next to vi imo 14:22:20 cmurf: I don't have any concerns to _add_ nano. making it the default only on workstation I think is not a good plan as then tutorials would have to differ between Server and Workstation 14:22:46 OK so I think that means we need coordination. 14:22:54 it would be interesting to see if we can frame this question as a testable hypothesis 14:23:03 I think making it a System-wide Change is not a bad idea 14:23:16 "a sizable % of fedora users don't know how to use vim" 14:23:32 that's something you can test 14:23:40 And also put the two questions up for CoreOS and Cloud folks. 14:23:46 "many online guides specify nano" 14:23:58 Probably the people who know how to use vi, use vim, hehe 14:24:07 sizable fedora users are used to using vim and now need to relearn to be able to commit with git if we change the default $EDITOR 14:24:38 we could make the default change set via a subpackage that doesn't get installed on upgrades 14:24:49 but fresh installs would get the package by default (obviously) 14:24:56 kalev, maybe that's "sizable % prefer vim to other editors" ? 14:25:10 aday: sounds about right 14:25:28 Son_Goku: we have a workstation rule that distro upgrades should try to get the same package set as clean installs 14:25:42 kalev, we already don't do that 14:25:48 or an aspiration, let's say 14:26:20 anyway, let's run the questions through votes just to see where we stand 14:26:43 I think $EDITOR is empty by default 14:26:53 vote 1: Add nano to Workstation default install in addition to vi (without changing $EDITOR) 14:26:55 how can I check? 14:27:10 these are straw votes right? 14:27:18 I don't know what straw votes means 14:27:19 At least it is empty on my system; I guess that means it's a free-for-all for each application to decide "what is the default terminal text editor" 14:27:21 Boot Live? 14:27:28 kalev: vote just to see what people are thinking, not a real vote 14:27:47 kalev: non-binding, it's a way of building concensus by iterating the votes to see where people are at 14:27:53 is the only benefit to installing nano but not changing the default that instructions pasted into a terminal will work? 14:28:10 sure, can do a straw vote if people want to drag this out even more ... 14:28:20 Are we doing a vote for Fedora wide too? 14:28:31 Lol 14:29:00 that's why I'm saying straw vote, our vote doesn't really matter anyway because we just more or less agreed that it wouldn't be a great idea if only Workstation changes its default 14:29:15 either default editor, or default installed editor 14:29:28 Nod 14:29:30 if nano is there for workstation but not server, I'd be a little annoyed 14:29:46 that's for the server wg to decide if they want nano 14:29:50 or in fact first I'd be a little confused, then annoyed 14:31:05 we've been at this for 30 minutes 14:31:09 i think we should avoid fragmenting the editions with what basic tools are installed by default 14:31:23 aday, benefit is you don't need to connect to the internet to install a reasonably-usable text editor 14:31:40 mcatanzaro, i'm a bit meh to that :) 14:31:53 you could make the same argument for pre-installing anything 14:32:17 vi is *really* hard to use if you're not used to it, even if you're familiar with vim 14:32:26 It's a cli tool 14:32:29 a cli text editor is a recovery tool that comes useful to make the internet connection work if it's not there 14:32:32 #proposal: Submit a Fedora 32 System-Wide Change to propose changing the default terminal text editor to nano 14:32:37 My argument is vi shouldn't be the only way to edit things without 'sudo dnf install' 14:33:03 #chair otaylor 14:33:03 Current chairs: Son_Goku aday cmurf juhp[m] kalev mcatanzaro otaylor petersen 14:33:07 Well if it doesn't become Fedora default then we could add it for WS only 14:33:13 how does someone know that nano is installed/available? 14:33:27 aday: they try 'nano /etc/blah-blah' and it errors out if it's not 14:33:39 FWIW I'm undecided on setting a default (seems we have no strong arguments here either way) but having it installed makes sense to me 14:33:45 kalev, that's a bit of a leap of faith 14:33:50 Which reminds me we noticed with F31 differences in installed fonts between WS and SB... 14:33:55 aday: that's how CLI works ... 14:33:58 what if someone doesn't know about nano in the first place 14:34:05 Also if we do set it as $EDITOR then we need to decide exactly where and how, so as to not override user selection 14:34:07 "i want to edit foo.txt" 14:34:17 aday: then they have to google about editing files on linux 14:34:26 what if they're using git from the cli for the first time? 14:34:40 We could add it to WS first and then additionally propose as a fedora default package... 14:34:46 git uses $EDITOR by default. I belive it's set to vi by default, but I may be wrong 14:35:09 kalev, how to check the value of $EDITOR ? 14:35:13 if `$EDITOR` is unset, lots of things assume vi 14:35:14 cmurf: echo $EDITOR 14:35:17 i've got a default installation now 14:35:24 Nod 14:35:32 returns nothing 14:35:42 Right 14:35:47 well it returns a blank line 14:35:49 So git just picks vi when $EDITOR is unset 14:35:53 git from the cli should be a prime use case that we design for, imo 14:35:59 aday: agreed 14:36:05 i don't think we can expect people to know how to change the default 14:36:17 agreed 14:36:17 If someone is coming from Ubuntu (or Windows) and 'git commit' drops them into vi - that's certainly not very friendly 14:36:19 i mean, i don't know how 14:36:21 "By default, Git uses whatever you’ve set as your default text editor via one of the shell environment variables VISUAL or EDITOR, or else falls back to the vi editor to create and edit your commit and tag messages." 14:36:38 otaylor++ 14:36:38 mcatanzaro: Karma for otaylor changed to 1 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 14:36:43 So we set EDITOR to nano for new users? 14:37:07 Should one of us simply propose a system-wide change making nano the default editor? Or should I float this by the edition working groups first? 14:37:33 Apparently Ubuntu (and probably Debian) has EDITOR set to editor, and 'editor' is updated via alternatives 14:37:36 yes 14:37:43 I'm really reluctant for editions to fragment in regards to basic tools like editing files 14:37:51 let's do a series of (binding) votes now that we have a nice quorum, and have the system-wide change question in there too to see if WOrkstation WG supports it 14:37:52 otaylor, ah that would be nicer 14:37:53 cmurf, system-wide change seems straightforward enough 14:37:57 let me lay out the votes and then do them one by one 14:37:58 Sounds like a good F32 Change to me 14:38:08 aday: the main difference is per-user versus system-wide 14:38:10 otaylor, so we want to import the /usr/bin/editor thing? 14:38:28 vote 1: #agreed Add nano to Workstation default install in addition to vi (without changing $EDITOR) 14:38:32 aday: this really seems more per-user, so I don't initially love the /usr/bin/editor thing 14:38:45 +1 vote 1 14:38:49 +1 14:38:52 +1 vote 1 14:38:53 +1 14:38:59 +1 vote 1 for me too 14:39:14 Are these votes exclusive? 14:39:37 what does that mean+ 14:39:50 i still don't particularly see the point without changing the default 14:40:13 Hm I think better to vote from general to specific, sorry 14:40:33 (arguably the votes are being done out of order, because if I learned that any other WG were opposed to including nano by default or making it the default editor, I'd probably vote -1 on vote 1) 14:40:35 I was trying to lay out votes but people already started voting 14:40:42 I also don't see much point in nano without making it the default 14:40:55 cmurf: exactly 14:41:10 kalev, OK it wasn't clear you didn't want us to vote 14:41:23 sorry 14:41:31 anyway, let me try to lay out the votes now I think make sense 14:41:34 vote 1: #agreed Add nano to Workstation default install in addition to vi (without changing $EDITOR) 14:41:57 I see 14:42:00 vote 2: #agreed Change Workstation default $EDITOR to nano 14:42:29 vote 3: #agreed Workstation WG would like to change Fedora default editor from /usr/bin/vi to /usr/bin/nano 14:42:32 I vote for 2 14:42:48 Oops 14:43:02 I meant #3 14:43:17 vote 3 is us trying to change the default editor for all the editions? 14:43:20 so this is the series of votes I thought makes sense to do 14:43:31 yeah, but we don't have the power to just change it, so it's just voicing support 14:43:31 I think you mean EDITOR 14:43:37 +1 for vote 3 14:43:42 vote 2: +0; vote 3: +1 14:44:04 OK so the total votes are 1, 2, 3 - there is no 4 coming? 14:44:19 that's all from me, unless someone else wants to add one 14:44:36 let's do the votes in mcatanzaro's format, that was a good one 14:44:37 anyone? 14:44:45 still not sure what vote 3 means 14:45:27 it means replacing vi with nano in the default install for all fedora editions 14:45:33 I'm +1 for vote 3 - to try to do the addition and change across the editions 14:45:54 I am: vote 1: +1, vote 2: 0, vote 3: 0 14:46:16 kalev, thanks 14:46:53 do we have a volunteer for driving a fedora wide change? 14:46:57 right now i'm: vote 1: -1, vote 2: +1, vote 3: +1 14:46:59 I'm a little ? for what we should do if that gets rejected - I think I'm still +1 for #1 / #2 - I don't see making things worse for the workstation in hopes that Fedora users will train themselves to use vi before trying out Fedora on a server or container 14:47:10 But it would be a bit of a mess 14:47:18 vote 2: +1 (provided our change proposal fails) 14:47:59 If we propose this FEdora-wide, we'll have to answer questions about what this means for minimization 14:48:15 it would also help to have some data 14:48:17 I think those will be easy questions to answer 14:48:27 vote 1: 0; vote 2: -1; vote 3: +1 14:48:28 I don't know how nano compares to vim-minimal 14:49:18 it's smaller 14:50:27 do we have the capacity to run surveys? 14:50:56 It might be worth a thread on devel list? Or Discourse 14:52:05 devel@ thread happens automatically as part of system-wide change 14:52:31 i would much prefer to gather data rather than opinions 14:52:34 True nod 14:52:36 sooo, let's see. if I counted it correctly, we have vote 1 (+1:5, 0:1, -1:-1); vote 2 (+3:, 0:2, -1:1); vote 3 (+1:5, 0:1, -1:) 14:52:58 how much is quorum again? 5 votes or did that change to 6? 14:53:12 to pass votes 14:53:38 it's 5 14:54:17 so looks like vote 1 to just add nano passes, vote 2 to change the $EDITOR just for workstation does not pas, and vote 3 to suggest changing the default system wide passes 14:54:31 yep 14:54:32 #agreed Add nano to Workstation default install in addition to vi (without changing $EDITOR) (echo $EDITOR) 14:54:35 gree 14:54:38 grrr 14:54:38 aday: Though I'm not sure if *usage* of nano in the fedora base says much 14:54:39 #undo 14:54:39 Removing item from minutes: AGREED by kalev at 14:54:32 : Add nano to Workstation default install in addition to vi (without changing $EDITOR) (echo $EDITOR) 14:54:44 this is fun because strictly, there should only be 9 voting members but we have 10; quorum should therefore be 6 (majority of the membership) but to the letter, 5 is majority of 9 14:54:57 #agreed Add nano to Workstation default install in addition to vi (without changing $EDITOR) (+1:5, 0:1, -1:1) 14:55:00 aday: I think the main argument is that it's an editor that doesn't trap you when run and displays help text by default 14:55:07 so we really need to clean up our governance document and get it approved by fesco 14:56:02 cmurf, I have a draft for that in the pagure issue 14:56:03 #agreed Proposal to change Workstation $EDITOR to nano does not pass (+1:3, 0:2, -1:1) 14:57:05 #agreed Workstation WG would like to change Fedora default editor from /usr/bin/vi to /usr/bin/nano (+1:5, 0:1, -1:0) 14:57:10 ok wait 14:57:23 quorum means "you have enough people to have a meeting and make binding decisions" 14:57:42 Doesn't mean "you need six +1 votes to pass issues" yes 14:58:18 Our governance document says we need to give everyone a week to vote and hold the vote on mailing lists so let's not get too much into the weeds about the rules here, we've been ignoring them since the WG was founded 14:58:22 otaylor, we talked about testing things like familiarity with vim, preference for vim 14:58:27 once you have quorum, it is often true that a majority vote of members present carries 14:58:41 so again, governance doc, and what rules are we following 14:59:02 Rather we can update the rules to reflect how we actually operate (or wish to operate, aday still wants BlueJeans meetings I'm sure :) 14:59:12 I prefer Bluejeans meetings myself 14:59:20 but I tend to be outvoted :) 14:59:23 anyway. is there anyone who wants to do the changes? mcatanzaro, cmurf? 14:59:24 mcatanzaro, and a supreme leader 14:59:36 At least on F31 WS nano doesn't pull in any deps 14:59:42 mcatanzaro, and a kanban 14:59:47 add nano to default workstation and submit a system wide change proposal? 14:59:49 mcatanzaro, and free jam 14:59:56 I'm not volunteering for this change proposal, soryr 14:59:59 kalev, yep 15:00:34 #action Son_Goku to submit a system wide proposal to change the default installed editor from vi to nano 15:00:41 sure, why not 15:00:49 I don't think I have a change proposal for F32 yet ;) 15:01:05 ah, I though you said "yep" because you wanted to do it 15:01:08 i could help write a change proposal 15:01:15 aday, that'd be greatly appreciated 15:01:16 lol, thanks Son_Goku, good sport :P 15:01:25 thanks Son_Goku :) 15:01:37 aday, I'm not great with writing these kinds of things 15:01:38 I will keep an eye out for it 15:01:40 anyone want to take the other part to add nano to workstation? 15:01:47 and then we need to wrap up 15:01:56 ah man, I gotta boogie 15:02:04 kalev, I'll add nano to comps 15:02:14 #action mcatanzaro to add nano to workstation-product comps 15:02:20 excellent! 15:02:33 ok, I have to go as well now, so let's wrap this up 15:02:34 (Although we might want it in a non-workstation comps group) 15:02:40 mcatanzaro, probably 15:02:47 (We can change comps later if Son_Goku's change is accepted) 15:02:53 Though just adding it Fedora wide should be less controversial 15:02:53 mcatanzaro: please add it to workstation specific for now 15:02:57 yeah 15:03:05 Thanks 15:03:15 Son_Goku, why don't you write your change with instructions to remove it from workstation-product if the change passes 15:03:21 sure 15:03:24 great :) 15:03:33 ok, ending the meeting then! thanks Son_Goku and mcatanzaro 15:03:36 #endmeeting