14:00:25 <cverna> #startmeeting FESCO (2020-09-16)
14:00:25 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Sep 16 14:00:25 2020 UTC.
14:00:25 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
14:00:25 <zodbot> The chair is cverna. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:00:25 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:00:25 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco_(2020-09-16)'
14:00:31 <cverna> #meetingname fesco
14:00:31 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco'
14:00:35 <sgallagh> .hello2
14:00:35 <cverna> #chair nirik, ignatenkobrain, decathorpe, zbyszek, sgallagh, mhroncok, dcantrell, cverna, Conan_Kudo, Pharaoh_Atem, Son_Goku, King_InuYasha, Sir_Gallantmon, Eighth_Doctor
14:00:35 <zodbot> Current chairs: Conan_Kudo Eighth_Doctor King_InuYasha Pharaoh_Atem Sir_Gallantmon Son_Goku cverna dcantrell decathorpe ignatenkobrain mhroncok nirik sgallagh zbyszek
14:00:35 <zodbot> sgallagh: sgallagh 'Stephen Gallagher' <sgallagh@redhat.com>
14:00:38 <dcantrell> .hello2
14:00:39 <zodbot> dcantrell: dcantrell 'David Cantrell' <dcantrell@redhat.com>
14:00:42 <mhroncok> .hello churchyard
14:00:43 <zodbot> mhroncok: churchyard 'Miro Hrončok' <mhroncok@redhat.com>
14:00:43 <cverna> #topic init process
14:00:50 <cverna> hello everyone
14:00:57 <nirik> morning
14:01:03 <nirik> .hello kevin
14:01:04 <zodbot> nirik: kevin 'Kevin Fenzi' <kevin@scrye.com>
14:01:13 <bcotton> .hello2
14:01:14 <zodbot> bcotton: bcotton 'Ben Cotton' <bcotton@redhat.com>
14:01:25 <King_InuYasha> .hello ngompa
14:01:26 <zodbot> King_InuYasha: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' <ngompa13@gmail.com>
14:01:36 * King_InuYasha just got back from getting flu shot
14:01:52 <dcantrell> oh I should get one of those
14:01:54 <cverna> So we did not have any ticket tagged with meeting
14:02:13 <decathorpe> .hello2
14:02:14 <zodbot> decathorpe: decathorpe 'Fabio Valentini' <decathorpe@gmail.com>
14:02:18 <cverna> but we have couple of old tickets still open
14:02:29 <cverna> do we want to look at these ?
14:02:34 <zbyszek> .hello2
14:02:34 <King_InuYasha> dcantrell: I love modern medicine, as long as I don't look at it :D
14:02:34 <zodbot> zbyszek: zbyszek 'Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek' <zbyszek@in.waw.pl>
14:02:40 * King_InuYasha twitches over needles
14:02:53 <dcantrell> I am the same way.  I hate getting shots, though it's never as bad as I think
14:03:18 <dcantrell> but worse than that is getting blood drawn.  I always pass out.  and it's because I look at it and see it happening and then boom, I'm on the floor
14:03:35 <King_InuYasha> yeah...
14:03:36 <dcantrell> but it's only ever for myself, I don't do that if I see other people having it done....go figure
14:03:47 <King_InuYasha> I get queasy when I see blood drawn directly
14:04:24 <sgallagh> cverna: What tickets are you referring to?
14:04:24 <decathorpe> you get used to it :D
14:04:25 <mhroncok> cverna: good idea
14:04:37 <cverna> .fesco 2441
14:04:38 <zodbot> cverna: Issue #2441: F34 System-Wide Change: RPM-level auto release and changelog bumping - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2441
14:04:42 <dcantrell> when I had Lyme disease last year (not recommended), they took A LOT of blood multiple times and wow, they asked me to remind them of the fact that I'll end up on the floor because they want to give me the big recliner and have OJ ready to go
14:04:46 <bcotton> dcantrell: omg, me too
14:04:48 <mbooth> dcantrell: Don't they make you sit down? Your phlebotomist might be trolling you
14:04:59 <cverna> last comment was 2 months ago
14:05:07 <dcantrell> mbooth: I fall out of that chair
14:05:17 <dcantrell> unless they lock me in to all 25,000 Pyramid style
14:05:21 <mhroncok> cverna: I appreciate you try stay on topic :D
14:05:33 <cverna> mhroncok: trying hard :P
14:05:35 <dcantrell> mhroncok: sorry....
14:05:55 <cverna> dcantrell: haha no worries
14:06:09 <mhroncok> https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Changes/rpm_level_auto_release_and_changelog_bumping&action=history
14:06:16 <mhroncok> no change what so ever
14:06:27 <mhroncok> if we want to get rid of the ticket, we can say to resubmit once ready
14:06:30 <sgallagh> I remain in favor of eliminating %changelog entirely, but whatever
14:06:48 <decathorpe> didn't we say it depends on 2440?
14:07:08 <mhroncok> we did
14:07:11 <King_InuYasha> yeah, it depends on that other one
14:07:22 <decathorpe> did something happen to it or is it in limbo?
14:07:25 <King_InuYasha> which... nim has not done anything so far
14:07:32 <cverna> do we want to close the ticket and ask to reopen when 2440 was implemented
14:07:33 <King_InuYasha> I assume because he's been on vacation
14:07:43 * nirik hasn't seen him around on irc lately. :(
14:08:04 <King_InuYasha> iirc, he's on a long vacation right now
14:08:26 <cverna> proposal : close 2441 and ask to reopen once 2440 is implemented
14:08:44 <sgallagh> cverna: +1
14:08:45 * cverna is not a fan of ticket staying open forever
14:08:45 <dcantrell> I agree with sgallagh on changelogs, but that aside I don't really have a problem with these changes if it's optional for packagers (which it appears to be).  I don't think this is something that will work for all packages, but for those that want to use it...sure?
14:08:58 <dcantrell> cverna: yeah, I'm ok with that too  +1
14:09:00 <decathorpe> cverna: +1
14:09:12 <King_InuYasha> cverna: +1
14:09:14 <sgallagh> dcantrell: Last we checked in on this, didn't we determine that the implementation would require infra work that no one wanted to implement?
14:09:18 <King_InuYasha> yes
14:09:19 <nirik> cverna: sure, but I think I am not in favor of the change... but we can discuss that down the road
14:09:26 <mhroncok> cverna: +1
14:09:27 <dcantrell> sgallagh: yes
14:09:30 <King_InuYasha> sgallagh: yeah, that's still the case
14:09:58 <cverna> #action cverna to close #2441 asking to reopen once #2440 is implemented
14:10:35 <cverna> .fesco 2418
14:10:36 <zodbot> cverna: Issue #2418: Formalize updated policies for what spins can change without asking (and what can be changed with FESCo clearance) - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2418
14:10:51 <zbyszek> Hmm, I would prefer to keep the ticket open while it's being worked on.
14:11:00 <zbyszek> Closing and reopening doesn't make much sense.
14:11:11 <zbyszek> (I stepped away to take a phone call, sorry.)
14:11:20 <sgallagh> zbyszek: mark as "stalled" and ignore it until something changes?
14:11:29 <dcantrell> yeah, I feel this one is more stalled than anything
14:11:36 <zbyszek> Yes. We did that with many other tickets.
14:11:39 <mhroncok> stalled tickets tend to be stalled forever, until they are closed
14:11:41 <dcantrell> I think closing acts as sort of a poke to see if there's still interest
14:11:42 <cverna> zbyszek: no problem, it is just so that we know we don't have to care about that ticket for now
14:11:51 <dcantrell> mhroncok++
14:12:11 <King_InuYasha> note that they can't reopen the ticket
14:12:16 <King_InuYasha> only project admins can
14:12:36 <King_InuYasha> (or people with ticket privileges)
14:12:49 <dcantrell> they can just open a new one
14:13:01 <cverna> we can ask them to add a comment to the ticket for it to be reopen in that case
14:13:18 <zbyszek> Yeah, but then we have two tickets on the same subject, history becomes messy.
14:13:38 <cverna> I don't have a strong opinion on that one
14:13:49 <mhroncok> stalled is fine
14:13:55 <King_InuYasha> this ticket is still an F34 ticket
14:13:57 <King_InuYasha> so we can leave it open
14:14:03 <cverna> #undo
14:14:03 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: ACTION by cverna at 14:09:58 : cverna to close #2441 asking to reopen once #2440 is implemented
14:14:05 <King_InuYasha> we closed the F33 ticket with guidance
14:14:24 <cverna> #action cverna to tagged #2441 as stalled
14:14:24 <King_InuYasha> we can ask him to resubmit that for F34
14:14:35 <zbyszek> cverna: thanks
14:14:45 <King_InuYasha> and we (bcotton) will do the needful :)
14:15:37 <cverna> so next
14:15:37 <bcotton> #action bcotton to do the needful
14:15:41 <cverna> .fesco 2418
14:15:42 <zodbot> cverna: Issue #2418: Formalize updated policies for what spins can change without asking (and what can be changed with FESCo clearance) - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2418
14:16:11 <King_InuYasha> blech
14:16:12 <cverna> I have not followed that ticket much but it does not seems super active anymore
14:16:33 <King_InuYasha> I think really the only thing we need to do is purge references to the Spins SIG and remove the spins/labs split
14:16:51 <King_InuYasha> pretty much everything else winds up being a case-by-case thing we have to evaluate as a Change anyway
14:17:01 <sgallagh> Well, I think a fair bit of this was triggered by questions around ELN
14:17:14 <zbyszek> King_InuYasha: that was my thinking
14:17:17 <King_InuYasha> ah yes, the amorphous blob :D
14:17:20 <nirik> there's the question of some guidence, but I guess we could punt that...
14:17:57 <King_InuYasha> I think we could just say introducing new flavors/variants/spins/etc requires a System-Wide Change no matter what
14:18:02 <King_InuYasha> that's pretty simple guidance
14:18:14 <sgallagh> Or resurrecting a long-dormant one, maybe
14:18:14 <dcantrell> that works for me
14:18:33 <bcotton> i'd say self-contained is more appropriate, but it doesn't matter too much either way
14:18:46 <King_InuYasha> there's a lot of moving pieces for introducing or removing flavors, and system-wide changes tend to capture that better, imho
14:19:04 <King_InuYasha> releng, kickstart, comps, pungi, etc.
14:19:17 <nirik> well, the main help would be to save people time if they propose something too 'off fedora', but it's really hard to say what that might be comprised of.
14:19:38 <sgallagh> Fedora: Smart Fridge Edition!
14:19:43 <King_InuYasha> hah
14:19:51 <King_InuYasha> I could see someone making a Home Assistant flavor
14:19:56 <sgallagh> ...
14:19:59 <King_InuYasha> err Smart Home flavor
14:20:05 <zbyszek> sgallagh: you make one that works and I'll install it my kitchen immediately
14:20:16 <bcotton> nirik: i think the trademark guidelines cover that fairly well...but it's probably worth making the docs easy to find from one place
14:20:16 <King_InuYasha> sgallagh: no joke, I would too
14:20:23 <bcotton> so less a creation of new docs and more a curation of existing
14:20:24 <sgallagh> ...
14:20:25 * King_InuYasha mourns his crappy fridge
14:20:45 <bcotton> fwiw, my Taiga Board of Shame has a card for improving the spins process docs because the current ones are....largely lies
14:20:50 <dcantrell> are you guys kidding?  no software in my kitchen.  I've seen software.  We work on that stuff
14:20:53 <nirik> I mean if someone submits a thing that uses sysvinit is that approvable? apparmour? how about .debs? freebsd kernel?
14:20:55 <King_InuYasha> bcotton: yay lies :D
14:20:56 <sgallagh> Ok, but "works" in my definition may include solving the problem of food shortage in the fridge by elimination of the consuming entities...
14:21:10 <King_InuYasha> nirik: oh boy...
14:21:23 <dcantrell> nirik: so that was my concern, but more about using the Fedora brand
14:21:31 <dcantrell> I think those have to be case by case
14:21:35 <King_InuYasha> yup
14:21:39 <nirik> yeah. I mean... go for it! but it's not really fedora.
14:21:47 <King_InuYasha> I think the System-Wide Change process captures these kinds of things pretty well
14:21:47 * nirik nods.
14:21:55 <sgallagh> That's definitely the point at which it should be a Fedora Remix
14:21:56 <King_InuYasha> and forces it to be relatively descriptive and involve all the stakeholders early
14:22:09 <dcantrell> definitely
14:22:57 <mhroncok> I don't think we are able to draw a line
14:23:14 <mhroncok> this is not sortable
14:23:18 <King_InuYasha> the mechanics of making a new flavor probably need to be better defined, but the process of adding and removing flavors should just be System-Wide Changes, IMO
14:23:23 <nirik> yeah, the line is fuzzy. But I guess we will see what we get. :)
14:24:00 <mhroncok> I am all in favor of: start a discussion on devel, see if people like the idea, do a change proposal
14:24:09 <sgallagh> mhroncok: +1
14:24:13 <dcantrell> based on the examples nirik mentioned, some of those ideas wouldn't even be able to use current infrastructure while others could.
14:24:18 <dcantrell> mhroncok: +1
14:24:26 <King_InuYasha> mhroncok: +1
14:24:32 <cverna> so to summarize introducing new or bringing back to live a flavors/variants/spins/etc requires a System-Wide Change
14:24:50 <King_InuYasha> cverna: likewise so for removing flavors
14:24:56 <nirik> sure. Happy to talk about even the craziest of ideas. :)
14:25:06 <cverna> King_InuYasha: could you add that proposal to the ticket and we can vote there ?
14:25:07 <zbyszek> Should i prepare a draft based on https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2418#comment-667545? Or do we want to start with a different angle?
14:25:38 <sgallagh> nirik: ehhh, I think there's a limit. I wouldn't even entertain "Fedora: Enhanced Interrogation Edition" as a proposal...
14:25:44 <cverna> zbyszek: that looks good to me
14:26:08 <nirik> sgallagh: I would talk about it for long enough to say no. ;)
14:26:21 <King_InuYasha> cverna: I think what zbyszek has sufficies, just adding a word to mention removing them does require a System-Wide Change too
14:26:21 <sgallagh> nirik: fair
14:26:34 <zbyszek> King_InuYasha: ack
14:26:38 <King_InuYasha> the whole point of doing so is just to make sure everyone knows
14:26:41 <cverna> King_InuYasha: agreed
14:26:48 <King_InuYasha> and the process goes without a hitch (if approved)
14:26:52 <sgallagh> agreed
14:27:06 <bcotton> ehhh
14:27:09 <King_InuYasha> and system-wide changes also give an opportunity for others to participate (either in taking over or helping with new stuff)
14:27:15 <King_InuYasha> otherwise, nobody knows
14:27:18 <bcotton> not sure i'm on board with requiring a change proposal to remove them
14:27:21 <nirik> well, the orig ask is a bit more detailed tho
14:27:33 <bcotton> like are we going to force people to keep doing it if they don't want to
14:27:34 <King_InuYasha> e.g. nobody knew that the scientific kde flavor disappeared in F31
14:27:46 <King_InuYasha> bcotton: no, it's more of an alert of all the things that need to be reaped
14:27:56 <King_InuYasha> and if someone wants to take over instead of letting it go, we can do that
14:27:58 <nirik> who would file that? how do we know?
14:27:59 <bcotton> also, the spins keepalive is later in the schedule in the system-wide change proposal deadline
14:28:07 <King_InuYasha> hmm
14:28:18 <bcotton> not that we can't change that milestone around
14:28:30 <bcotton> but it doesn't really fit the change proposal model
14:28:37 <King_InuYasha> the problem I want to solve is to give interested parties an opportunity to take over an orphaned flavor
14:29:00 <King_InuYasha> right now, I don't know of a way for us to do that beyond Change proposals
14:29:18 <bcotton> yeah, that can just be a devel-announce post after the keepalive with a "here are the spins that will be removed because nobody is apparently around for it"
14:29:35 <King_InuYasha> I'm fine with that as well
14:29:35 <bcotton> it's more like a non-responsive maintainer process than a change process
14:29:39 <zbyszek> True. So maybe bcotton should announce when a spin doesn't pass the keepalive check, and ask for volunteers to pick it up, and if that doesn't happen, we'll announce the removal of the spin along with other hcanges.
14:29:41 <King_InuYasha> hmm fair
14:29:48 <nirik> more like the orphaned package process.
14:29:48 <King_InuYasha> that works for me
14:30:00 <mhroncok> +1
14:30:07 <King_InuYasha> so zbyszek, could you incorporate that into your thing?
14:30:29 <zbyszek> King_InuYasha: yep
14:30:30 <King_InuYasha> but I think that covers all the bases
14:30:37 <King_InuYasha> so... +1 with all that :D
14:31:23 <nirik> so looking at the orig ask in the ticket... it seems like we should just say "all the things other solutions are doing you can do, if you diverge from fedora thats fine, but we need to discuss it in a change and approve it."
14:31:45 <King_InuYasha> proposal: zbyszek to draft spins/flavors/variants policy based on https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2418#comment-667545 with announce notices for orphaned spins/flavors/variants similar to orphaned packages
14:31:46 <cverna> #action zbyszek to prepare a draft proposal for #2418
14:31:47 <nirik> really this is docs for the spin process.
14:32:00 <cverna> #undo
14:32:00 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: ACTION by cverna at 14:31:46 : zbyszek to prepare a draft proposal for #2418
14:32:06 <cverna> King_InuYasha:  yours is better :)
14:32:12 <cverna> King_InuYasha: +1
14:32:32 <zbyszek> nirik: hmm, I can imagine a case where somebody says "I'll do kde-spin2, that is the same but uses a different clipboard mechanism", and I think we'd reject that because it's not *different* enough
14:32:50 <nirik> what are flavors and variants again? flavors makes me think of openstack... ;)
14:32:55 <nirik> zbyszek: good point.
14:33:24 <cverna> flavors makes me think of ice creams
14:33:29 <cverna> :P
14:33:36 <dcantrell> or koolaid
14:33:45 <mhroncok> instant ramen
14:33:58 <zbyszek> downloading the spin / drinking the koolaid
14:34:23 <cverna> #action zbyszek to draft spins/flavors/variants policy based on https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2418#comment-667545 with announce notices for orphaned spins/flavors/variants similar to orphaned packages
14:34:41 <cverna> sounds like we have a way forward for this ticket
14:35:02 <cverna> zbyszek++ for working on the draft
14:35:02 <zodbot> cverna: Karma for zbyszek changed to 8 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:36:29 <cverna> .fesco 2409
14:36:34 <zodbot> cverna: Issue #2409: F34 System-Wide Change: CompilerPolicy Change - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2409
14:36:40 <cverna> This is stalled too
14:37:31 <zbyszek> Let's mark it as stalled too, I'm sure law will return to it at some point.
14:37:34 <decathorpe> though the mass rebuild and gcc 11 / LTO issues have 99% been dealt with, so probably law has time now :)
14:38:01 <nirik> yeah, might ping law in the ticket and ask for an update?
14:38:46 <cverna> #action cverna to tag #2409 stalled
14:38:47 <decathorpe> +1
14:39:05 <cverna> nirik: yeah will do when I tag the ticket
14:39:43 <nirik> +1
14:40:25 <cverna> ok any other tickets we want to look at ?
14:40:30 <cverna> https://pagure.io/fesco/issues
14:40:36 <mhroncok> firefox?
14:41:03 <cverna> .fesco 2020
14:41:07 <zodbot> cverna: Issue #2020: Firefox is switching from gcc to clang/llvm - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2020
14:41:38 <nirik> I think this is now moot
14:41:39 <sgallagh> Man, I get PTSD just from the ticket number
14:41:45 <nirik> ha
14:42:00 <King_InuYasha> ugh
14:42:06 <King_InuYasha> that ticket represents 2020 so well
14:42:14 <cverna> lol
14:42:26 <zbyszek> It was filed in 2018, prescience
14:42:45 <nirik> anyhow, I am pretty sure the gcc bug was found, worked around and it's using gcc again.
14:42:59 <King_InuYasha> yup
14:43:05 <King_InuYasha> we can just close this ticket (again)
14:43:41 <cverna> sounds good to me, I ll close it after the meeting
14:43:42 <mhroncok> firefox still doesn't build in rawhide BTW
14:43:57 <cverna> #action cverna to close #2020
14:44:16 <mhroncok> closing 2020 sounds good
14:44:26 * mhroncok hopes 2021 will be better
14:44:33 <dcantrell> :)
14:44:36 <nirik> yeah, looks like it's hitting various problems... but the maintainer is on it.
14:44:39 <zbyszek> ERROR: Package 'nss' has version '3.55.0', required version is '>= 3.56'
14:44:50 <zbyszek> Not the compiler definitively.
14:45:20 <zbyszek> Too many crypto libraries: we have a different ticket for that ;)
14:46:23 <cverna> ok going to move to the next topic :)
14:46:33 <cverna> #topic Next week's chair
14:47:30 <mhroncok> I'll do it
14:48:44 <cverna> #action mhroncok to chair next meeting
14:48:47 <cverna> thanks mhroncok
14:48:51 <cverna> #topic Open Floor
14:49:13 <mhroncok> dcantrell: anything at council level we should know about?
14:50:28 <zbyszek> Oh, "
14:50:51 <zbyszek> #324 3rd party repo policy updated" was opened and closed.
14:51:20 <zbyszek> (The council was given a fyi about the policy change we approved, just in case.)
14:53:48 <cverna> nice :)
14:56:17 <cverna> ok going to close the meeting
14:56:21 <King_InuYasha> :)
14:56:22 <cverna> thanks everyone for joining
14:56:25 <King_InuYasha> thanks all!
14:56:31 <cverna> #endmeeting