20:37:39 <brainycmurf> #startmeeting Workstation WG (2025-04-22)
20:37:39 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Apr 22 20:37:39 2025 UTC.
20:37:39 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
20:37:39 <zodbot> The chair is brainycmurf. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
20:37:39 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
20:37:39 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation_wg_(2025-04-22)'
20:37:39 <brainycmurf> #meetingname workstation
20:37:39 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation'
20:37:39 <brainycmurf> #chair Matthias
20:37:39 <zodbot> Current chairs: Matthias brainycmurf
20:37:39 <brainycmurf> #info Present members: Matthias, Michael, Allan, Jens, Michel, Nieves, Tomas, Chris, Neal
20:37:39 <brainycmurf> #info Regrets:
20:37:40 <brainycmurf> #info Missing:
20:37:42 <brainycmurf> #info Secretary: Michael
20:37:44 <brainycmurf> #topic Validation test announcements
20:37:46 <brainycmurf> #link https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/4CPPBSHPJOZHWIMOWXO6EXU3HHS2H3EY/
20:37:49 <brainycmurf> Adam asked if we want to have validation test announcements on the desktop list. Anybody against that?
20:37:52 <brainycmurf> #agreed Validation test announcements on the desktop list are fine.
20:37:56 <brainycmurf> #topic Allow uninstalling yelp
20:37:58 <brainycmurf> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/451
20:38:00 <brainycmurf> What happens if Yelp is not installed? Applications will just fail to launch user help.
20:38:02 <brainycmurf> Matthias: Ideally apps would disable their Help menu items. But they don't.
20:38:04 <brainycmurf> Tomas: Could detect that yelp is uninstalled and switch to yelp-build-uri-handler instead, to launch the user help in a web browser, like in RHEL 10.
20:38:07 <brainycmurf> Michael: Yelp has a lot of 1-star reviews in GNOME Software complaining that it cannot be uninstalled.
20:38:10 <brainycmurf> Allan likes being able to link directly to user help; it's useful when we need to include a longer text description of how something works.
20:38:13 <brainycmurf> Unfortunately the user help is generally obsolete due to lack of maintenance. Analytics for online user help indicate large numbers of users are viewing outdated help pages.
20:38:16 <brainycmurf> Allan wonders about the role of desktop help. Every platform has it, but nobody reads it. It's not good at answering actual user questions like "why is my wi-fi not working?"
20:38:19 <brainycmurf> Matthias: We haven't reached any actual conclusions
20:38:21 <brainycmurf> Matthias and Jens are in favor of allowing Yelp to be uninstalled in GNOME Software. Allan is opposed.
20:38:26 <brainycmurf> Matthias: is it feasible for applications to link to online help instead of offline help?
20:38:28 <brainycmurf> #action Matthias to investigate making applications better handle Yelp being missing
20:38:30 <brainycmurf> #topic Full preemption
20:38:32 <brainycmurf> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/228
20:38:34 <brainycmurf> Chris: Brand new lazy preemption mode is under development and will likely become future upstream default
20:38:37 <brainycmurf> Chris: Let's close this ticket and focus on lazy preemption instead
20:38:39 <brainycmurf> Matthias: what are the benefits of lazy preemption? Chris: Better responsiveness under stress. Neal: Fewer microstutters.
20:38:42 <brainycmurf> #agreed Chris to create new ticket to track lazy preemption, propose change on Fedora devel@ list
20:38:44 <brainycmurf> #topic Announcements, follow-ups, status reports
20:38:46 <brainycmurf> Did we get a change proposal for dropping X11 in gdm ?
20:38:48 <brainycmurf> Neal wrote up a Change document
20:38:50 <brainycmurf> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/WaylandOnlyGNOME
20:38:52 <brainycmurf> Neal: This is happening soon whether we like it or not, but it makes sense to do in Fedora first. Notably, GNOME X11 no longer works very well.
20:38:57 <brainycmurf> Matthias: This is inconvenient for developers, would be nice to have some way to get an X11 session somehow.
20:39:00 <brainycmurf> Neal: Running a nested X11 desktop under Wayland is the likely path forward for developers. This change proposal removes all of GNOME's support for X11, not just gdm.
20:39:03 <brainycmurf> Did we get the default application swaps done, Nieves?
20:39:05 <brainycmurf> Nieves: I replaced totem with Showtime. Neal has already replaced evince with Papers.
20:39:07 <brainycmurf> Nieves: Next step is adding Decibels.
20:39:09 <brainycmurf> Did we get all backgrounds included?
20:39:11 <brainycmurf> Nieves: Yes, implemented last week
20:39:13 <brainycmurf> #topic Open Floor
20:39:15 <brainycmurf> Neal: Let's start using gnome-shell-extension dependency generator
20:39:17 <brainycmurf> Michel: There are problems with this. Recommend flagging it to FESCo because it would add an extra package to buildroot.
20:39:20 <brainycmurf> Jens: Why does it have to be in the buildroot?
20:39:22 <brainycmurf> Neal: It doesn't have to be, if we tell all shell extensions to BuildRequires it. We could have a gnome-shell-extension-devel subpackage.
20:39:27 <brainycmurf> Michel: This sounds good.
20:39:29 <brainycmurf> #topic Minutes from previous meeting
20:39:31 <brainycmurf> #link https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-2/2025-04-15/workstation.2025-04-15-19.52.log.html
20:39:34 <brainycmurf> #endmeeting