20:18:05 <brainycmurf> #startmeeting Workstation WG (2025-05-06)
20:18:05 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue May  6 20:18:05 2025 UTC.
20:18:05 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
20:18:05 <zodbot> The chair is brainycmurf. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
20:18:05 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
20:18:05 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation_wg_(2025-05-06)'
20:18:06 <brainycmurf> #meetingname workstation
20:18:06 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation'
20:18:06 <brainycmurf> #chair Matthias
20:18:06 <zodbot> Current chairs: Matthias brainycmurf
20:18:06 <brainycmurf> #info Present members:  Matthias Nieves Tomas Michael Allan Neal
20:18:06 <brainycmurf> #info Regrets:
20:18:06 <brainycmurf> #info Missing:
20:18:08 <brainycmurf> #info Secretary:  Jens
20:18:10 <brainycmurf> #info Guests:  Sebastian Yaakov Timothée
20:18:14 <brainycmurf> #topic Ship preinstalled apps as flatpaks
20:18:16 <brainycmurf> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/269
20:18:18 <brainycmurf> Discussion about how we can come forward
20:18:20 <brainycmurf> Sebastian: Alex started reviewing upstream MRs to support pre-installation(?)
20:18:22 <brainycmurf> Allan: do we have a list of pre-installed packages that should be flatpak
20:18:24 <brainycmurf> Neal is opposed to pre-installing flatpaks by default currently due to previously raised issues
20:18:26 <brainycmurf> - users don't have easy control permissions: for most flatpaks he needs to edit dir perms etc
20:18:28 <brainycmurf> - would like to see FlatSeal
20:18:30 <brainycmurf> Michael: these should be mostly bugs (eg Music apps that can't access Music)
20:18:32 <brainycmurf> #topic Fedora flatpaks, filtering
20:18:34 <brainycmurf> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/FilterFedoraFlatpaksAtomicDesktops
20:18:36 <brainycmurf> Timothee: idea to filter Fedora flatpaks for Atomic Desktops to only pre-installed flatpaks
20:18:38 <brainycmurf> Yaakov: Fedora should promote Fedora content first, not second class to Flathub
20:18:40 <brainycmurf> - Fesco decided that Flathub should come last
20:18:44 <brainycmurf> Allan: we had a lot of discussion already and (perhaps) does it make more sense for image based systems
20:18:47 <brainycmurf> Michael: the current preference for Fedora Flatpaks is hurting us with critical users
20:18:49 <brainycmurf> - however not all Flathub app are built from source! which should probably be addressed first
20:18:51 <brainycmurf> Matthias: not for us to stop people building Fedora Flatpaks
20:18:53 <brainycmurf> Sebastian: Flathub is resource constrainted compared to distros, so preferring Flathub would allow distros to contribute more to Flathub
20:18:56 <brainycmurf> Neal: even if we switch to Flathub, it doesn't help to improve Flathub since it means "they are good enough already as is": creates another "Docker Hub"
20:18:59 <brainycmurf> Sebastian: need to work together
20:19:01 <brainycmurf> Michael: some Flathub flatpak are sandboxed compared to less for Fedora, no Flathub security response team - runtime just ships latest versions
20:19:04 <brainycmurf> - we want flathub flatpaks built from source
20:19:06 <brainycmurf> - might restrict flatpak to apps reviewed as safe by gnome-software
20:19:08 <brainycmurf> Timothee: flathub can influences packagers in terms of policy
20:19:10 <brainycmurf> Allan: GNOME plans to have more formal governance around Flathub
20:19:14 <brainycmurf> Sebastian: can work with Flathub to have an appropriate filter for Fedora
20:19:16 <brainycmurf> Michael: flatpaks built from source in flathub vs built from source outside safely vs unsafe tarball built on someone's laptop - tricky to differentiate later
20:19:19 <brainycmurf> #topic Announcements, follow-ups, status reports
20:19:21 <brainycmurf> Matthias looked into yelp absence handling and came up with this: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/merge_requests/8537
20:19:24 <brainycmurf> Matthias: portal does have support which can be enabled in new gtk api
20:19:26 <brainycmurf> Felipe: should apps hide help if no yelp?
20:19:28 <brainycmurf> #topic Open Floor
20:19:30 <brainycmurf> #topic Summary & Details of this meeting produced by Gemini
20:19:32 <brainycmurf> cmurf: NOTE that this is a duplicate of the above. Eventually it might make sense to use topic changes for each Gemini bullet instead of info as I've manually done here, for the sake of the experiment I decided to keep the Gemini notes self contained in its own topic.
20:19:36 <brainycmurf> #info Summary
20:19:38 <brainycmurf> Timothée Ravier proposed a shift to selectively include Fedora flatpaks on atomic desktops, prioritizing a smaller, well-maintained set, which Yaakov Selkowitz strongly opposed, advocating for prioritizing all Fedora content over FlatHub. Participants including Michael Catanzaro, Sebastian Wick, and Timothée Ravier discussed user preferences, FlatHub's role, resource allocation, collaboration, and the challenges of filterin
20:19:45 <brainycmurf> g FlatHub content. Matthias Clasen reported on a GTK update for handling uninstalled help documentation, and Neal Gompa (Conan Kudo) discussed the likely approval of the Wayland-only GNOME change proposal and an XWayland bug fix, also announcing a new open-source composer tool.
20:19:49 <brainycmurf> #info Details
20:19:51 <brainycmurf> #info Proposal to Filter Fedora Flatpaks
20:19:53 <brainycmurf> Timothée Ravier introduced a change
20:19:55 <brainycmurf> proposal to shift from including all Fedora flatpaks by default on atomic desktops
20:19:57 <brainycmurf> to a more selective approach. The rationale behind this proposal is to address
20:19:59 <brainycmurf> current issues with Fedora flatpaks and align with community feedback to
20:20:01 <brainycmurf> prioritize a smaller set of well-maintained packages. The intention is to begin
20:20:03 <brainycmurf> with a limited, reliable set and expand as needed for applications better suited as
20:20:05 <brainycmurf> Fedora flatpaks (00:00:00).
20:20:07 <brainycmurf> #info Opposition to Prioritizing FlatHub
20:20:09 <brainycmurf> Yaakov Selkowitz strongly opposed the
20:20:11 <brainycmurf> proposal, arguing that Fedora should prioritize its own content. They stated that
20:20:15 <brainycmurf> on atomic desktops, flatpaks are the primary way to add applications, and this
20:20:17 <brainycmurf> proposal would place FlatHub before Fedora, which they believe is incorrect and
20:20:19 <brainycmurf> against Fedora's principles (00:01:33). Yaakov Selkowitz emphasized that if there
20:20:21 <brainycmurf> are problems with Fedora flatpaks, the solution is to fix them, not to favor
20:20:23 <brainycmurf> third-party content like FlatHub, which doesn't necessarily meet Fedora's
20:20:25 <brainycmurf> standards (00:02:47).
20:20:27 <brainycmurf> #info User Preference and Fedora's Role
20:20:29 <brainycmurf> Michael Catanzaro acknowledged Yaakov
20:20:31 <brainycmurf> Selkowitz's desire to prioritize Fedora content but suggested that a large number
20:20:33 <brainycmurf> of users prefer FlatHub content. They raised concerns about the supply chain
20:20:35 <brainycmurf> security of some FlatHub applications, noting that they are not always built from
20:20:37 <brainycmurf> source, which poses a significant problem (00:05:31). Despite this, Michael
20:20:39 <brainycmurf> Catanzaro viewed Timothée Ravier's proposal as a reasonable compromise,
20:20:41 <brainycmurf> though they cautioned against implementing it before addressing the
20:20:45 <brainycmurf> build-from-source issue with FlatHub (00:07:56).
20:20:47 <brainycmurf> #info Resources and Collaboration with FlatHub
20:20:49 <brainycmurf> Sebastian Wick argued for
20:20:51 <brainycmurf> implementing the change sooner rather than later, suggesting that preferring
20:20:53 <brainycmurf> FlatHub might encourage more resources to be directed towards its
20:20:55 <brainycmurf> improvement (00:09:21). They emphasized the need for collaboration between
20:20:57 <brainycmurf> Fedora and FlatHub, viewing a "them versus us" mentality as unhelpful in
20:20:59 <brainycmurf> achieving the shared goal of better application distribution (00:13:07). Sebastian
20:21:01 <brainycmurf> Wick proposed creating a filter for FlatHub applications based on Fedora's
20:21:03 <brainycmurf> requirements (00:21:37).
20:21:05 <brainycmurf> #info Concerns about Filtering FlatHub Content
20:21:07 <brainycmurf> Timothée Ravier raised practical
20:21:09 <brainycmurf> challenges in filtering FlatHub, particularly in distinguishing between correctly
20:21:11 <brainycmurf> packaged open-source applications, those with some pre-built binaries, and
20:21:15 <brainycmurf> proprietary ones (00:24:32). Michael Catanzaro echoed these concerns,
20:21:17 <brainycmurf> emphasizing the need to be stricter about accepting applications with pre-built
20:21:19 <brainycmurf> binaries of unknown provenance (00:26:05).
20:21:21 <brainycmurf> #info Next Steps for the Change Proposal
20:21:23 <brainycmurf> Timothée Ravier indicated that the change
20:21:25 <brainycmurf> proposal had not yet been formally announced or submitted to FESCO. They
20:21:27 <brainycmurf> planned to have further discussions, including at the KDE contributor conference
20:21:29 <brainycmurf> (KDC) and their talk at Flock, and encouraged those in support to add their
20:21:31 <brainycmurf> names to the proposal (00:27:15). The target for implementation is Fedora 43,
20:21:33 <brainycmurf> with the announcement likely occurring by the end of June or early July
20:21:35 <brainycmurf> (00:28:29).
20:21:37 <brainycmurf> #info GTK Help API Update
20:21:39 <brainycmurf> Matthias Clasen reported on progress regarding handling
20:21:41 <brainycmurf> uninstalled help documentation (Yelp) in application UIs. A GTK merge request
20:21:45 <brainycmurf> has been implemented to add a new API that uses the portal to query whether
20:21:47 <brainycmurf> help is supported. This allows applications to disable help-related UI elements if
20:21:49 <brainycmurf> Yelp is not installed, although applications need to adopt the new API (00:29:42).
20:21:51 <brainycmurf> #info Wayland-Only GNOME Change Proposal
20:21:53 <brainycmurf> Neal Gompa (Conan Kudo) provided an
20:21:55 <brainycmurf> update on the Wayland-only GNOME change proposal submitted to FESCO. While
20:21:57 <brainycmurf> there was one dissenting vote based on aligning with upstream, Neal Gompa
20:21:59 <brainycmurf> (Conan Kudo) expects the proposal to pass, especially given the strong upstream
20:22:01 <brainycmurf> momentum towards removing the X11 session in GNOME 49 (00:32:01). They
20:22:03 <brainycmurf> argued that Fedora should not ship a desktop session with bugs that upstream
20:22:05 <brainycmurf> developers are unwilling or unable to fix (00:33:39).
20:22:07 <brainycmurf> #info GNOME Session X11 Support Issue
20:22:09 <brainycmurf> Neal Gompa (Conan Kudo) also mentioned a
20:22:11 <brainycmurf> bug report regarding broken XWayland support in GNOME Session 48. This issue
20:22:15 <brainycmurf> has been fixed upstream and likely needs to be backported to the 48 branch
20:22:17 <brainycmurf> (00:34:40).
20:22:19 <brainycmurf> #info New Open-Source Compositor Tool
20:22:21 <brainycmurf> Neal Gompa (Conan Kudo) announced the
20:22:23 <brainycmurf> public release of their new open-source tool for creating composers from Fedora
20:22:25 <brainycmurf> and CentOS content. The tool has been submitted as a BOD update and is
20:22:27 <brainycmurf> documented in a blog post (00:35:43).
20:22:29 <brainycmurf> #topic Minutes from previous meeting
20:22:31 <brainycmurf> #link https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-2/2025-04-29/workstation.2025-04-29-15.31.html
20:22:34 <brainycmurf> Neal: F43 Change removal of Xorg session has one vote against, though looks upstream may go ahead for 49
20:22:37 <brainycmurf> - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/3408
20:22:39 <brainycmurf> #endmeeting