15:00:17 #startmeeting modularity_wg 15:00:17 Meeting started Tue Jun 14 15:00:17 2016 UTC. The chair is langdon. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 15:00:17 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 15:00:17 The meeting name has been set to 'modularity_wg' 15:00:28 #meetingname Weekly meeting of Modularity WG 15:00:28 The meeting name has been set to 'weekly_meeting_of_modularity_wg' 15:00:34 .hello psabata 15:00:35 contyk: psabata 'Petr Šabata' 15:00:40 jkurik, ^^ will that mess up the logs? 15:00:50 jkurik, meetingname i mean? 15:01:00 or any other zodbot experts 15:01:04 langdon: I do not think so 15:01:07 #chairs: dgilmore, cydrobolt, harald, jkurik, langdon, mikedep333, sct, tflink, threebean 15:01:08 cool 15:01:16 #topic Roll Call 15:01:18 .hello tflink 15:01:18 .hello jkurik 15:01:19 tflink: tflink 'Tim Flink' 15:01:21 .hello langdon 15:01:22 jkurik: jkurik 'Jan Kurik' 15:01:25 langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' 15:02:45 #topic Agenda 15:03:13 #info Elections to Modularity WG 15:03:13 #info demos sprint 7 15:03:13 #info sprint 8 theme 15:03:14 #info orchestrator 15:03:26 ok.. let's get started? 15:03:36 unless anyone has an agenda item to add/propose? 15:03:52 * lkocman is here 15:04:04 * threebean too :) 15:04:19 .hello sct 15:04:20 sct: sct 'Stephen Tweedie' 15:04:37 ok.. let's start with elections 15:04:45 #topic Elections to Modularity WG 15:04:52 jkurik, i assume you are the lead for this? 15:04:58 #info Fedora Elections after F24 GA release are planned in period from 2016-June-27 to 2016-July-26 15:05:07 #link https://fedorapeople.org/groups/schedule/f-24/f-24-elections.html 15:05:18 #undo 15:05:25 #link https://fedorapeople.org/groups/schedule/f-24/f-24-elections.html 15:05:34 ooo that is soon 15:05:52 * langdon wonders if his council seat is up for re-election 15:06:13 As there will be elections after F24 GA, I would ike to have a common concensus, whether we are going to re-elect the Wg members for Modularity WG 15:06:22 * lkocman finds himself confused about seeing Modularity WG elections and then f-24-elections next to each other 15:06:34 me too :) 15:06:34 I expect no, but just to be sure ... 15:06:36 lkocman, the cycle is for "any" election 15:06:41 like we do them all at once 15:06:43 langdon: okay 15:07:20 i would actually propose we do them... 1) to fit the normal schedule 2) the last ones were a bit wonky 3) revisit if people want to be "voting members" 15:07:27 but.. i don't know how much work it is 15:07:36 IMO this WG is quite fresh and do need to be re-elected 15:07:50 jkurik, "do" or "do not"? 15:08:03 ah, "do not" 15:08:05 sorry 15:08:14 jkurik, figured based on earlier remark ;) 15:08:26 langdon: thanks :) 15:08:29 jkurik, any rough estimate of effort you can providE? 15:08:45 like for us or others? 15:08:58 for the WG there is not much effort 15:09:14 people only need to nominate them self 15:09:43 another model would be to just change the charter to be "any one at the meeting can vote" .. which i might be fine with too.. unfortunately (and this is probably partially my fault), we haven't been using the ML as much as we probably should.. 15:10:01 and the people who nominates , will probably need to publish some answers to a set of common questions 15:10:56 the rest is a work for Election wrangler, who will do the work anyway for other WGs 15:11:26 ok.. so .. do we want to vote? anyone want to propose any changes to governance? 15:12:20 I am -1 for including this WG into the F24 Election cycle 15:12:55 jkurik, because you just don't feel it is necessary? 15:13:00 I am -1 for changing the governance 15:13:02 langdon: yes 15:13:16 -1 on changing governance 15:13:20 ok.. typing proposal.. 15:13:31 sorry I am late 15:13:33 simply because I think it's an odd practice to allow the quorate membership of the WG to decide for themselves that they don't need reelecting to stay another term. 15:13:45 sct, lol.. pshaw 15:14:26 But I do agree with jkurik that it won't achieve much, so it's not a strong -1... maybe a -0.3 or so. :) 15:14:34 sct: I will include the WG members to F25 Election cycle, it is IMO just too early to do the elections now 15:14:46 sorry .. 1 q.. ^^ 15:14:50 I don't mind either way 15:14:55 yeah.. ok.. was typing that in the proposal 15:15:03 #info proposed Modularity WG will skip this election cycle as the most recent one was ~6m ago. Plan to participate in next cycle (f25). 15:15:04 I'm trying to recall --- I think when we set up the WG we said we'd be re-electing anyway, didn't we? 15:15:06 i suspect that this is obvious but if we do skip the F24 cycle, it'd need to be the only one we skip 15:15:29 tflink: that is the plan 15:15:42 ok.. vote on ^^ 15:15:49 yeah, i should have waited 30 seconds :) 15:15:51 * langdon means the #info above 15:16:07 ack 15:16:33 langdon: there has never been a Modularity WG election right? 15:16:48 dgilmore, well.. there was sorta one at the beginning.. 15:16:50 not sure that has been elections for any WG's 15:16:56 "election by fiat" :) 15:16:57 dgilmore: there was a democratic decision which involved very little democracy 15:17:06 lkocman++ 15:17:06 langdon: Karma for lkocman changed to 3 (for the f23 release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 15:17:07 but it was a great Election 15:17:12 big one 15:17:28 Where Langdon was the big one who made the decision. :) 15:17:31 ok.. i have one in favor.. anyone else? 15:17:31 * lkocman plays on trump 15:17:47 -1 but a weak -1 15:18:02 sct, i thought you did not want an election.. ? 15:18:23 langdon: No, I didn't want to change the governance 15:18:29 sct, ahh ok 15:18:43 we had the same question being proposed with opposite polarity. :) 15:19:04 ha 15:19:16 ok.. this is gonna take forever.. in favor of election, quickly +1 or -1 ?? 15:19:17 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/voting/archives 15:19:28 -1 15:19:35 -1 but also weak - it just seems strange to say "we can continue without an election" 15:19:39 I don't think the WG really needs it, as jkurik says; but I think it's generally better for Fedora if the WGs have elections 15:19:50 Env and stacks seems to be the only thing similiar to a WG that has had an election 15:19:59 -1 I don’t see a big need for re-elect 15:20:00 sigh 15:20:00 what does our charter say? 15:20:03 i misread 15:20:14 +1 but also weak - it just seems strange to say "we can continue without an election" 15:20:53 +1 on having the election - yes, it's probably not going to do much, but it seems strange to have effectively appointed people say "we can continue without actually being elected" 15:20:57 by way of comparison.. server doesn't have elections.. just named people based on participation (badly paraphrased and some IIRC) 15:21:11 tflink: I think the +1 is for _not_ having it?? 15:21:12 -1 15:21:19 * langdon digs for charte 15:21:20 r 15:21:24 sct: it was phrased both ways 15:21:24 Oh 15:21:27 new question 15:21:28 langdon: none of the Working Groups have elections 15:21:31 +1 for election 15:21:43 but I think it will be a formality 15:21:50 weak +1 15:21:52 I am -1 for elections 15:21:54 * langdon points out it is easier to get what i want if i keep rephrasing the q ;) 15:21:58 if that's what's in our charter 15:22:09 sct: there is nothing in the charter 15:22:16 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Modularity_Working_Group/Governance_Charter 15:22:19 "Each voting member of the working group will confirm their continued membership every six months. In the event that a current voting member relinquishes their seat, the remaining voting working group members are responsible for appointing a new voting member to fill the seat from the active Fedora Server community via majority consensus. " 15:22:25 weak +1 for democratic elections then 15:22:34 * langdon just noticed typo 15:22:41 langdon: so no fracking elections 15:22:44 lets move on 15:22:49 yeah!! 15:22:51 :) 15:23:13 langdon: OK. It's -1 to making an exception. If the charter lets us just move on, then let's just move on. 15:23:19 ok.. so.. proposed: per the charter, no fracking elections! (will paraphrase for agreed) :) 15:23:25 +1 15:23:26 +1 15:23:28 +1 15:23:33 +1 15:23:37 +1 15:24:16 #agreed per the modularity working group charter (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Modularity_Working_Group/Governance_Charter), modularity WG will not be participating in the f24 elections. 15:24:33 ok.. next.. one sec will i c/p 15:24:35 * jkurik is sorry for taking almost half of the timeslot for this meeting with his topic 15:24:41 #topic demos sprint 7 15:24:45 jkurik, :) 15:25:01 jkurik, if any of us remembered the charter already answered this ... 15:25:08 cpacheco, want to do the honors? 15:25:14 Sure 15:25:53 For sprint #7, we recorded a handful of demos and uploaded them to YouTube, which you can find here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TIrQ6_bwEk&list=PLcwHJG45BmANGOBocdSTOC7220A9Fd_vH 15:26:17 You can also find the individual demo videos here: https://fedorapeople.org/groups/modularity/sprint-7-demo/ 15:26:47 All the videos in the playlist are in a specific order, so it is recommended that you watch the videos in the order in which they appear in the playlist 15:27:07 As always, you are more than welcome to give us feedback on these videos 15:27:10 and, cpacheco will be posting an "overview" video to the playlist by tomorrow? 15:27:17 Yes, I will be posting an overview video 15:27:25 and .. also.. has awesomely added ones for the last two sprints 15:27:27 I posted overview videos for both sprint #5 and sprint #7 15:27:28 cpacheco++ 15:27:28 langdon: Karma for cpacheco changed to 2 (for the f23 release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 15:28:03 also adding to meeting … let’s just do sprint demos after sprint, not during it if we can post overview day after why not the rest ... 15:28:05 Essentially, the "overview" video is a 3-5 minute video that describes what we did during the sprint and how all the demos relate to each other 15:28:24 yup 15:28:30 cpacheco, you did #5 and #6 already, right? not #7 15:28:37 Yes, 5 and 6, but not 7 15:28:43 7 is coming out by EOD 15:28:45 * langdon notes typo abover 15:28:57 ah, yes. i meant 5 and 6 :) 15:29:32 Demo 5 overview (for anyone who is interested): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtxB2O7HudE 15:29:46 * langdon was just digging for that 15:29:49 cpacheco: This video is private. 15:29:52 Demo 6 overview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWmDC75Q5A0 15:29:52 can you give us #6 too? 15:30:02 ah, i'll make them public now. i thought they were public 15:30:03 oops.. i was supposed to flip that bit 15:30:07 * cpacheco makes them public 15:30:31 #link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtxB2O7HudE < sprint #5 overview video 15:30:38 nice! 15:30:42 They are now public 15:30:52 cpacheco, link to 6? 15:30:58 But anyway, those "overview" videos are the type of thing you should expect with sprint #7 15:31:15 langdon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWmDC75Q5A0 15:31:31 #link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWmDC75Q5A0 < sprint #6 overview video 15:31:44 ok.. any qs about demos? or should we move on? 15:31:55 yes, one more thing... 15:32:06 btw.. detailed links to videos (non-yt versions) are in the agenda 15:32:13 Assume the "overview" video for sprint #7 will be added to the sprint #7 playlist 15:32:21 so the link to the video can be found there 15:32:31 but it's not up yet 15:32:40 #info For sprint #7, we recorded a handful of demos and uploaded them to YouTube, which you can find here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TIrQ6_bwEk&list=PLcwHJG45BmANGOBocdSTOC7220A9Fd_vH 15:32:56 #info detailed links to videos (non-yt versions) are in the agenda (http://piratepad.nl/modularity-wg-agendas) 15:33:04 ok.. next topic 15:33:13 #topic sprint 8 theme 15:33:47 ok.. we are trying to start doing a theme for each sprint.. YMMV .. but we think it will help make what we are doing make more sense for people who aren't there everyday 15:34:06 so.. for our first attempt at it.. we are going to do "orchestrator" as the theme.. 15:34:38 as you may recall from threebean's diagram.. there is a "thingy" that orchestrates builds in koji (and some other stuff) it is in the middle of the diagram 15:34:41 Říďa is the codename for orchestrator 15:34:52 so.. we will be taking a crack at it for this sprint.. 15:35:11 langdon: in a limited effort right? since 1/2 people is on pto 15:35:45 we will also be publishing some new arch docs (courtesy of sct), some UX thought from mary, and, hopefully, some ideas on "what is a releasable module" from robert 15:36:08 lkocman, sure.. i expect it to still be awesome though! :) 15:36:15 so.. 15:36:27 of course it will be 15:36:43 #info sprint 8 theme is: orchestrator, prelim UX, new arch docs, and prelim QE 15:36:46 langdon: with threebean backing us … it will rock! 15:36:52 lkocman, :) 15:36:56 * threebean cartwheels into the room 15:37:00 :-))) 15:37:16 any thoughts? questions? /me notes next topic is about orchestrator itself.. so hold qs about that for then 15:37:37 threebean: langdon do we want to just post some rendered png out of our dia? 15:37:54 lkocman, next topic then yes 15:38:23 ok.. tflink in particular i would like to make sure you see robert's thoughts asap 15:38:37 ok.. moving on 15:38:40 #topic orchestrator 15:38:56 contyk, lkocman threebean one of y'all want to take it away? 15:39:04 #chair contyk lkocman threebean 15:39:04 Current chairs: contyk langdon lkocman threebean 15:39:13 yeah, so the basic idea is this 15:39:16 http://fed-mod.org/rida.png 15:39:38 the orchestrator, codenamed rida, as lkocman has already said, coordinates the build of the module and all the components it contains 15:39:55 * langdon realizes he screwed up the chair command earlier 15:39:58 it provides a RESTful interface the packager interacts with the usual tools as as fedpkg 15:40:00 #chair: dgilmore, cydrobolt, harald, jkurik, langdon, mikedep333, sct, tflink, threebean 15:40:00 Current chairs: : contyk cydrobolt dgilmore harald jkurik langdon lkocman mikedep333 sct tflink threebean 15:40:08 aka non-atomic chainbuild based on yaml passed as scmrul … with tracking progress and sprinkles 15:40:09 ;) 15:40:16 *scmurl 15:40:26 yeah, that :) 15:40:38 with buildroot, target, and tag construction too! 15:40:47 diagram here? 15:40:49 yup … target per module/version/release 15:40:58 langdon: rida.png above? 15:41:03 oh sorry.. didn't see the link above 15:41:09 langdon: apologize accepted 15:41:14 one of you #link that now that you are chairs please 15:41:20 #link http://fed-mod.org/rida.png 15:41:56 so, yes -- modules are represented as targets in koji 15:42:04 and we track the deliverables in pdc 15:42:12 the PDC is involved as dependency grapher, and also stores the imported module tree location, so we can compose it 15:42:16 yup 15:42:18 rida has its own database which tracks module build states 15:42:47 * dgilmore wants to point out the cost of new targets and buildroots in koji today is massive 15:42:47 also let’s say that long term goal is to get module into koji. this is a prototype 15:42:58 ack 15:43:04 it needs major redesign in order to not cause massive issues 15:43:26 * dgilmore thinks you should look at teh koji work first 15:43:30 dgilmore: I see it as continuous rebuild of all the things :-) 15:43:38 dgilmore, et al.. needs major work to fit this proposal? or the longer term version? 15:43:58 langdon: for more than about 2 modules 15:44:32 if we are going to do one or two we can wear the cost, pain and slowness 15:44:43 but more than that kojisra will not scale 15:44:54 kojira 15:45:08 * threebean nods 15:45:17 yeah, that work is just on our plate dgilmore 15:45:20 but not for this sprint. 15:45:37 we want to see if we can even build modules in koji (with this Rida orchestrator) 15:45:43 well.. will we be able to "stage build a module" by flock? 15:45:52 and, if it works (slowly) then next sprint (or the one after that) we can dive into optimizing koji. 15:46:19 I put a good bit of work in last week on the koji test suite (not nearly finished) in preparation for that. 15:46:44 +1 15:47:04 but, no one is going to solve that for us. 15:47:12 it's the modularity team's problem to solve. 15:47:22 (just want to make that clear) 15:47:32 $a 15:47:35 bah 15:47:51 dgilmore: I think that the proposal is dozens of modules over time 15:48:02 so.. i am not sure i follow.. the concern here is that koji can't handle the orchestrated builds either? i thought the concerns were more about making modules a first class citizen of koji? 15:48:37 langdon: they're two separate concerns. 15:49:04 dgilmore is concerned about choking koji. in other meetings, I've been concerned about the first-class citizen status of modules in koji. 15:49:22 the latter is still our long term goal, ftr 15:49:23 well.. not to be too petulant :) but "will we be able to build arbitrary modules for people by flock?" even if in stg? 15:49:54 * threebean nods 15:49:56 one or two 15:49:57 langdon: that’s what your demo is about. Make it happen :-P 15:50:14 yeah, the optimization work we can hold off on. but we can't go to "production" without it. 15:50:19 lkocman, *you* are making my demo happen! ... all i do is wave my hands a lot :) 15:50:21 langdon: stag koji has almost no r4esources 15:50:24 resources 15:50:37 dgilmore: we do expect core by flock right? 15:50:40 langdon: buy more servers ;) 15:50:47 I am more concerned about choking stage koji than production koji 15:51:00 lkocman: I have no idea 15:51:15 langdon: we have 2 arm servers 15:51:19 langdon: ^ can you promise dgilmore that we won’t choke stage to death? 15:51:22 and I think 6 x86 vms 15:51:37 well.. in a sense.. the choking is about "rebuilds" right.. like deps and modules needing to be rebuilt.. building one module at a time.. like not being abale to share much may be less damaging? 15:51:37 thats the full capacity of stg koji 15:51:46 it also has limited disk space 15:51:49 dgilmore: let’s do this … we can have our stuff in modularity channel 15:52:01 dgilmore: we’ll add just one builder to modularity … with capacity at least 4 15:52:08 and use just that and leave rest free 15:52:21 /dev/mapper/GuestVolGroup00-root 242G 183G 59G 76% / 15:52:22 dgilmore: or if it’s 6 then … let’s say two hosts in channel 15:52:23 then there'll be space left over for all the other stg users (koschei, pungi,...) 15:52:38 there is 59G of 242G disk available 15:52:47 well.. and .. let's talk about the design.. we can always throttle usage.. as long as the design is ok, right? 15:52:54 lkocman: there is 2 arm boxes 15:52:58 just 2 15:53:16 like is there really a way to design it much differently in light of limited resources? i would think not.. it is just about throttling 15:53:33 langdon: +1 15:54:02 langdon: +1 15:54:06 so.. let's agree on the design.. and then get it running and see what damage it actually does.. then x the throttling (or more servers) bridge? 15:54:06 langdon: sure 15:54:28 (where "x" = "cross" .. sorry old habit) 15:54:39 so, a comment on the design 15:54:57 its unique among the kinds of things we build... because fedpkg module-build talks directly to rida 15:55:08 but when we container build or image build or do a normal build.. all those things talk directly to koji 15:55:23 which either handles building that content as a native task *or* hands it off to a content-generator. 15:55:42 so, we're doing things differently here mostly just so we can get things going faster (prototype phase) 15:55:55 we want to instead reorganize things to be more in line with our other content types down the road (post flock) 15:56:19 that's important because it limits the scope of development we do on Rida. 15:56:21 threebean, are you saying "more in line" is to talk directly to koji? or the opposite? 15:56:27 langdon: talking to directly to koji. 15:56:37 threebean: that’s next step once the prototype is done isn’t it? 15:56:41 * threebean nods 15:56:45 threebean, this seems to be a bus problem to me :) 15:56:49 yeah, we know that lkocman. 15:56:58 lkocman: I'm just saying it again for the meeting :p (we talked about it this morning) 15:57:03 I see your concern. but I just really got this as recommendation from mikem 15:57:30 I asked whether we should start with injecting it into koji 15:57:38 let's double back and check with him again now that we understand more about the whole thing. fair? 15:57:42 does fedpkg need a sync response? why not just post a message and have either rida or koji pick it up? 15:57:59 langdon: -1, no publishing to the bus from outside infra. we don't have a way to secure it. 15:58:02 yup 15:58:09 threebean: I had a discussion yesterday with mikem where I outlined the issues I have with content generator, and honestly the same arguments apply here I think 15:58:10 threebean: ddos langdon !!! ddos! 15:58:20 langdon: it only gets a response like "200 OK, submitted" 15:58:33 dgilmore: do you have notes on that? 15:58:37 i didn't realize there wasn't a secure channel to post to the bus.. 15:58:42 threebean: acarter may 15:59:04 langdon: we have to give you a secret cert, and lock you down with iptables... and we just can't do that for end users. 15:59:15 dgilmore: will follow up after the meeting. thanks. 15:59:21 threebean, i guess we kinda do that with packagers, no? 15:59:31 langdon: well, they talk to koji via XMLRPC. 15:59:39 and koji then spams the bus 15:59:44 contyk, lol 15:59:59 and that's my original point. adding rida as a web service increases our web API surface. 16:00:06 * dgilmore has to run to the releng demo 16:00:19 yeah.. probably time for us to wrap up 16:00:20 if we can keep that smaller - and have fedpkg just talk to koji like everything else does.. that keeps the surface simple. 16:00:20 * lkocman needs to run for another super secret project 16:00:26 * threebean waves 16:00:27 anything #agreed or #info we can note? 16:00:27 * dgilmore is likely to not be here the next 4 weeks, it will be a 1am start time for me 16:00:35 * lkocman +1 16:00:41 dgilmore: we'll make sure to wreck the world for you while you're gone. 16:00:53 threebean: I jnow what city you live in 16:00:58 know even 16:00:58 * threebean curses 16:01:18 ok... closing things down 16:01:26 see above ^^ 16:01:34 going once.... 16:01:50 going twice.......................... 16:02:05 going thrice..... 16:02:14 #endmeeting