15:00:58 <FranciscoD> #startmeeting Fedora-Join October 10 2016
15:00:58 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Oct 10 15:00:58 2016 UTC.  The chair is FranciscoD. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:00:58 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:00:58 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-join_october_10_2016'
15:01:11 <FranciscoD> #chair mailga skamath jflory7
15:01:11 <zodbot> Current chairs: FranciscoD jflory7 mailga skamath
15:01:17 <FranciscoD> #topic rollcall
15:01:23 <FranciscoD> .hello ankursinha
15:01:24 <zodbot> FranciscoD: ankursinha 'Ankur Sinha' <sanjay.ankur@gmail.com>
15:01:29 <mailga> .hello mailga
15:01:30 <zodbot> mailga: mailga 'Gabriele Trombini' <g.trombini@gmail.com>
15:01:47 * FranciscoD will wait 5 minutes for the other to pop in
15:02:11 <FranciscoD> that's also enough time to dip a few biscuits in my tea :P
15:02:23 <Southern_Gentlem> .hello jbwillia
15:02:24 <zodbot> Southern_Gentlem: jbwillia 'Ben Williams' <vaioof@yahoo.com>
15:02:51 <FranciscoD> hiya Southern_Gentlem! Nice to see you here :)
15:02:53 <FranciscoD> #chair Southern_Gentlem
15:02:53 <zodbot> Current chairs: FranciscoD Southern_Gentlem jflory7 mailga skamath
15:04:05 <skamath> .hello skamath
15:04:08 <zodbot> skamath: skamath 'Sachin S Kamath ' <sskamath96@gmail.com>
15:04:17 <skamath> FranciscoD, o/
15:04:33 <FranciscoD> skamath: :D - we were waiting on you :P
15:04:53 <skamath> FranciscoD, Apologies - had a bit of trouble with the WiFi
15:05:01 <skamath> Switched to wicd :)
15:05:09 <FranciscoD> haha, no worries. We always wait for a few minutes anyway :)
15:05:40 <FranciscoD> OK, let's start with announcements
15:05:43 <FranciscoD> I think the biggest one is:
15:06:11 <FranciscoD> #info F25 Beta is GO, release on October 11, 2016 (TOMORROW!)
15:06:12 <FranciscoD> awesome!
15:06:18 <skamath> \o/
15:06:20 <skamath> Whee!
15:06:40 <FranciscoD> I also saw the change request for Jekyll. Nice to know we have another static blog generator in Fedora
15:07:00 <skamath> FranciscoD, what about Jekyll?
15:07:09 <FranciscoD> #info Static blog generators - Pelican (Python) is already in Fedora and now Jekyll (Ruby) will also be included
15:07:16 <FranciscoD> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Jekyll
15:07:22 <skamath> Whoa, so cool.
15:07:39 <skamath> Moarrr out-of-the-box support. Awesome
15:07:39 <FranciscoD> There's also Odoo, which I hadn't ever heard of
15:08:03 <FranciscoD> #info Odoo (the world's easiest all in one management software) will also be included in Fedora
15:08:06 <FranciscoD> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Odoo
15:08:34 <skamath> Have not even heard of it :/
15:08:50 <FranciscoD> Our fearless leader also mailed about some changes or additions to the blocker bug process
15:08:53 * FranciscoD goes to fetch link
15:09:14 <FranciscoD> #info Discussion on devel list: "PROPOSAL: Blocking the release is our only "big hammer" -- let's add a softer one."
15:09:18 <FranciscoD> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/IGT4TGHJZK6442JM4VLBRSPCW6DKTUPI/
15:09:41 <skamath> FranciscoD, just noticed - the topic is still on rollcall
15:09:50 <FranciscoD> oh! blimey!
15:09:54 <FranciscoD> #topic announcements
15:09:56 <FranciscoD> XD
15:10:06 <FranciscoD> And, of course, the PSA adam sent out about using dnf on systems with hybrid graphics and the related X crashes
15:10:31 <FranciscoD> #info discussion over offline updates (again): "PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24"
15:10:36 <FranciscoD> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/7ULAG243UNGTOSL6URGNG23GC4B6X5GB/
15:10:51 <FranciscoD> anything else noteworthy?
15:11:09 <Southern_Gentlem> (hybred graphics issue showing up more and more in #fedora)
15:11:22 <FranciscoD> yea, I had it on my laptop too :/
15:11:46 <skamath> Wayland B)
15:11:47 <FranciscoD> I knew it was to do with a systemd update and I'd just blamed myself for not doing em offline
15:12:33 <FranciscoD> OK, if we haven't any other announcements, we can move on to the agenda
15:12:36 <FranciscoD> #topic Agenda
15:13:04 <FranciscoD> Today is a bit of a special session. We do have tickets to look at, but before we handle any of them, we need to properly define the functions of the SIG
15:13:13 <FranciscoD> to make sure we don't overlap with what CommOps is already doing
15:13:27 <FranciscoD> (as was discussed in the previoius meeting)
15:13:34 <skamath> Nice :)
15:13:45 <FranciscoD> https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-3/2016-09-26/fedora_join_26_sept_2016.2016-09-26-15.02.log.html
15:14:22 <FranciscoD> #info Follow up discussion from last meeting over clarification of SIG's specific goals, targets, tasks
15:14:25 <FranciscoD> that ought to cover it
15:14:36 <FranciscoD> This is a summary I'd sent to the ML:
15:14:37 <FranciscoD> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/fedora-join@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/WSO4B2YIJJQRQGG6SJMKSIEMWQGG7XJR/
15:15:00 <FranciscoD> I'll summarise in point form for the benefit of the logs:
15:15:22 <FranciscoD> #info Fedora-Join general goal: "Make it easier for people to join the community and contribute"
15:15:39 <FranciscoD> #info Goal is *too* general - in the sense that this can entail a myriad of activities
15:15:59 <FranciscoD> #info For eg, CommOps working on streamlining onboarding process of different teams already
15:16:11 <FranciscoD> skamath: correct me if I mess up anything ;)
15:16:18 <FranciscoD> especially with commops
15:16:32 <skamath> FranciscoD, you know CommOps well ;)
15:16:55 <FranciscoD> #info Our specific aim is given here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Join_SIG#Aim
15:17:06 <FranciscoD> #info "The Fedora Join SIG aims to set up and maintain channels that let prospective contributors engage with the community."
15:17:18 <FranciscoD> so, we're not really dealing with tooling
15:17:29 <FranciscoD> and we're not dealing with specific teams
15:17:56 <FranciscoD> #info we want to be a general place where contributors and prospective contributors can hang out and each can benefit from the relationship
15:18:10 <FranciscoD> That's what I've written in the e-mail pretty much
15:18:57 <FranciscoD> How does that sound, and does that do enough to restrict our tasks to not overlap with CommOps?
15:19:26 <skamath> FranciscoD, the e-mail reflected this perfectly
15:19:32 <FranciscoD> I was hoping to get some feedback on the ML but we didn't get much :/
15:20:02 <FranciscoD> skamath: and do you think this makes sense?
15:20:15 <skamath> FranciscoD, 100%
15:20:25 * mailga admits to be out of the group too much.... FOSCo killed me.
15:20:44 <skamath> "newbies that join together can work together, even if they work in different teams"
15:20:51 <skamath> ^ Can you brief on this?
15:20:56 <FranciscoD> mailga: do you want 10 minutes to go through my email? :)
15:21:20 <FranciscoD> skamath: well, the idea is that there isn't a channel where all the new folks can hang out together
15:21:26 <mailga> no worries I'll read later, for now I'm following you here...
15:21:32 <FranciscoD> so what happens is, one newbie joins team A, another joins team B
15:21:46 <FranciscoD> they learn about their different teams, but because they don't interact enough, they don't learn from each other
15:22:03 <FranciscoD> tldr; they end up learning individually, and often there's a lot of repetition
15:22:15 <Southern_Gentlem> sounds like we almost need a set of core things that everyone should know
15:22:16 <FranciscoD> it's a lot easier when there are a bunch of folks in the same boat
15:22:16 <skamath> Not too long, but okay :P
15:22:46 <skamath> Nice. So that'll happen in #fedora-join right?
15:22:53 <mailga> FranciscoD: Maybe it's an unuseful question, but we discuss about this last Flock in Rochester. What about collect easyfix under Fed-join?
15:22:58 <FranciscoD> Southern_Gentlem: yea, I've worked on a prototype that should give folks an overview of the community in general: https://ankursinha.fedorapeople.org/join-v2/
15:23:07 <Southern_Gentlem> a) setup fas account  b) gpgkey etc
15:23:26 <FranciscoD> So we're also having a bit of a discussion on the CommOps list about this
15:23:35 <FranciscoD> the hubs are going to improve a lot of this
15:23:43 <FranciscoD> #info Hubs have an onboarding section
15:23:56 <FranciscoD> #info Hubs have a help widget that lists tasks people need help with
15:23:58 <skamath> Woah Woah Woah. Charlie looks gooooood.
15:24:20 <FranciscoD> #info Hubs include workflow to enable people to create FAS and sign CLA etc
15:24:33 <FranciscoD> So Hubs are going to improve this scenario quite a bit
15:24:40 <skamath> FranciscoD++ It looks way better than the initial one.
15:25:05 <FranciscoD> skamath: we're not sure if we're going to deploy any of it. Did you read the reply I sent out last night?
15:25:12 <skamath> FranciscoD, Yes.
15:25:25 <skamath> But I'll love to see this in production
15:25:36 <FranciscoD> https://pagure.io/fedora-hu
15:25:36 <FranciscoD> bs/issue/raw/files/9998995815383a6f392ed567f0fe26966e76236030c1f5b510d7
15:25:39 <FranciscoD> 9eaf20391d34-HelpWidgetFinal.png
15:25:40 <FranciscoD> gah
15:25:44 <FranciscoD> stupid mail formatting
15:25:47 <FranciscoD> #undo
15:25:47 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Link object at 0x4806a7d0>
15:26:08 <FranciscoD> https://pagure.io/fedora-hubs/issue/raw/files/9998995815383a6f392ed567f0fe26966e76236030c1f5b510d79eaf20391d34-HelpWidgetFinal.png
15:26:27 <FranciscoD> So the tooling seems to be going in the right direction
15:26:39 <FranciscoD> and we, as Fedora-Join are not going to do much with it
15:26:58 <FranciscoD> (again to prevent overlap with CommOps, since they're focussing on overall tooling and process)
15:27:11 <FranciscoD> sure we give feedback etc., but the tasks and tickets stay on their issue tracker
15:27:20 <skamath> It sucks to be in the middle.
15:27:33 <FranciscoD> haha, or you can say it's awesomet to be on both sides ;)
15:27:46 <skamath> :D
15:28:05 <FranciscoD> So, coming back to what I think Fedora-Join does:
15:28:17 <FranciscoD> At the moment, our workflow is:
15:28:20 <FranciscoD> #info usually, someone turns up, after some surfing picks a team to join up, introduces themselves to the team members, gets to know them, works, makes friends, maybe even finds a mentor in the team, maybe begins to help another team later and then makes friends there, and repeat.
15:28:48 <FranciscoD> what I think we should tweak it to:
15:28:51 <FranciscoD> #info someone turns up, finds us cool contributors hanging around here, speaks to us, makes friends, gets to know how the community works, our philosophy (and finds it awesome) and what teams we have, finds a mentor (community mentor as opposed to team specific mentor), picks one or more teams to work in, becomes a part of the community, not just a specific team in the community.
15:28:57 <FranciscoD> (quoting from my e-mail here)
15:29:38 <FranciscoD> there's a very slight difference, but the effects are quite noticeable
15:29:49 <FranciscoD> #info newbies are not limited to team specific relationships
15:29:57 <FranciscoD> #info newbies that join together can work together, even if they work in different teams (we're all always closer to our classmates than to seniors/juniors)
15:30:08 <FranciscoD> #info they get a much better overall idea of how the community functions and are exposed to the workflows of different teams through us (including tooling, admin, process, goals, tasks, ninjas)
15:30:17 <FranciscoD> #info they go on to develop into contributors that also have a good idea of how the multiple arms of the community work to keep Fedora going
15:30:29 * FranciscoD stops to take a breath
15:30:39 <FranciscoD> Does that seem to make sense? :)
15:30:47 <skamath> Sounds good. Sounds good.
15:31:03 * mailga not sure we're not overlapping ambys...
15:31:16 <skamath> At this point, I am having a feeling it's getting a bit repetitive.
15:31:39 <FranciscoD> skamath: ah, great, repetition at least means its coherent
15:31:48 <FranciscoD> mailga: we're not overlapping with ambassadors
15:32:14 <FranciscoD> their duty is specifically to spread the word about fedora by going to events, and sure, they do attract people to the community
15:32:24 <FranciscoD> but we have *loads* of people in other teams who are not ambassadors
15:32:31 * FranciscoD isn't now, for example
15:32:37 <skamath> Ambassadors should start sending people to Join then :D
15:32:50 <FranciscoD> mostly because we work in the background and do not go to events etc
15:32:53 <mailga> skamath: yes, that's the way....
15:33:03 <FranciscoD> skamath: the idea is that we form the first layer
15:33:08 <FranciscoD> everyone comes to us
15:33:22 <FranciscoD> we have folks from various teams and people get to know them and the teams
15:33:25 <skamath> !
15:33:31 <FranciscoD> skamath: go
15:33:50 <skamath> How can we get people who get started off with WCIDFF come here
15:33:59 <FranciscoD> we cant
15:34:00 <skamath> here = #fedora-join
15:34:06 <skamath> There is no way we can?
15:34:06 <FranciscoD> well we can
15:34:09 <FranciscoD> but it'll take some hacking
15:34:29 <FranciscoD> we can add a footer that says "Still unsure, come speak to us in #fedora-join" or something of the sort
15:34:38 <skamath> Ah, ha.
15:34:44 <FranciscoD> the problem with wcidff is that it uses asknot-ng which is meant to be *generic*
15:35:06 <FranciscoD> I'm sure it can be done, but it'll then be a fedora specific patch in asknot-ng or something to that extent
15:35:16 * skamath nods
15:35:32 <FranciscoD> what I'm unsure is how the hubs, wcidff and easyfix will all exist together (if they will)
15:35:57 <FranciscoD> if you look at the screenshot I linked to, the hubs help widget seems to be pretty much doing what easyfix and wcidff do
15:36:04 <skamath> Umm, maybe WCIDFF > Wiki > Contribute > Easyfix ?
15:36:25 <skamath> Assuming they start with WCIDFF
15:36:49 <FranciscoD> yea, we'll see about the web part - the discussion on the commops list should result in something
15:36:59 <FranciscoD> but we're going towards tooling again :D
15:37:16 <FranciscoD> so does the goal of the SIG appear to be defined properly?
15:37:26 <skamath> From what I make out, Hubs will only look useful to new-comers only after contributing for a while
15:37:33 <skamath> People might get lost in Hubs early
15:37:38 <FranciscoD> +1
15:37:45 <FranciscoD> it may show them what tasks need to be done
15:37:57 <FranciscoD> but I still think a higher level overview of Fedora is a must
15:38:08 <skamath> +1
15:38:10 <FranciscoD> I mean, the hubs dont really tell people about our stand on Free software, for example
15:38:12 <mailga> FranciscoD skamath I think that when hubs will happens there won't be any place for Fed-join. It's all automated (don't think the human components isn't important) but that's the way hubs is going towards.
15:38:17 * FranciscoD keeps harping on about tis point
15:38:43 <FranciscoD> mailga: nah, I don't think so, but sure, if the hubs can do the job that well, it'll save us some work ;)
15:38:51 <FranciscoD> so no harm if the sig isn't needed later
15:39:30 <FranciscoD> I really dont think that'll happen, though. We are a community of foss enthusiasts. Replacing human parts with tools works in some areas, but it can't replace social relationships completely
15:39:44 * mailga doesn't know the meaning of "harping"...
15:39:45 <FranciscoD> and newbies may find hubs as scary as they find the current join processes
15:40:05 <FranciscoD> mailga: harping = endlessly repeating until people get bored and walk away :P
15:40:27 <mailga> FranciscoD: :-D. OK, I understad...
15:40:29 * skamath notes the time
15:40:36 <FranciscoD> +1
15:40:47 <FranciscoD> so lets vote on our "mission statement" then:
15:41:00 <skamath> +1
15:41:13 <mailga> +1 It works for me.
15:41:28 <FranciscoD> I'll just summarise it, as it's done on the wiki:
15:41:28 <skamath> Now that's majority B-)
15:41:31 <FranciscoD> "The Fedora Join SIG aims to set up and maintain channels that let prospective contributors engage with the community. The idea here is to enable people looking to join the Fedora community to converse with existing members, make friends, find mentors, and get a feeling of what and how the community does in general, with a view to reduce the learning gradient that joining a new community
15:41:38 <FranciscoD> entails - and make it more enjoyable! "
15:41:47 <FranciscoD> +1
15:41:49 <FranciscoD> :D
15:41:54 <skamath> lolol
15:42:00 <FranciscoD> Southern_Gentlem: if you're still around, what do you think?
15:42:11 <FranciscoD> We could always use your feedback :)
15:43:30 * FranciscoD will stalk him later ;)
15:43:31 <Southern_Gentlem> +1
15:43:39 <Southern_Gentlem> FranciscoD, in 3 meetings
15:43:47 <FranciscoD> haha, I'm not surprised :D
15:43:52 <FranciscoD> anyway, that's good then
15:44:17 * mailga thinks Southern_Gentlem needs holidays.... Bora Bora?
15:44:47 <FranciscoD> #agreed (+1:4, 0:0, -1:0) Fedora Join limit itself to forming and maintaining channels that let prospective contributors engage with the community. The Aims on the wiki page stand: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Join_SIG#Aim
15:45:01 <FranciscoD> I think that was the bulk of the meeting pretty much
15:45:06 <FranciscoD> #topic open floor
15:45:16 <FranciscoD> So, general discussion. We have about 10 minutes
15:45:20 <Southern_Gentlem> *** F24-20161001 updated lives available: http://tinyurl.com/Live-respins2  Thanks to the community of maintainers and seeders***
15:45:23 <Southern_Gentlem> *** F24-20161009 updated lives available: http://tinyurl.com/Live-respins2  Thanks to the community of maintainers and seeders***
15:45:40 <FranciscoD> Any more questions that I can clearify - about the goal, or hubs, anything? :)
15:45:50 <FranciscoD> s/clearify/clarify/g
15:45:58 <Southern_Gentlem> if nothing else people with the hybred issues point them to the updated spins
15:45:58 <skamath> None from me.
15:46:05 <FranciscoD> +1
15:46:20 <mailga> It's all clear for me.
15:46:30 <FranciscoD> #info Point people with hybrid issues to updated spins: F24-20161001 updated lives available: http://tinyurl.com/Live-respins2  Thanks to the community of maintainers and seeders
15:46:34 <FranciscoD> Southern_Gentlem++
15:46:34 <zodbot> FranciscoD: Karma for jbwillia changed to 9 (for the f24 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:46:39 <FranciscoD> great.
15:46:59 <FranciscoD> I'll close the meeting then. I still want to get jflory7 's feedback on this before we finally announce it
15:47:13 <FranciscoD> #action FranciscoD bug jflory7 for feedback on today's decision to confirm
15:47:18 <FranciscoD> ;)
15:47:21 <FranciscoD> anything else?
15:47:30 <FranciscoD> otherwise we close in: 5
15:47:34 <skamath> We're all good to go!
15:47:39 <FranciscoD> #action FranciscoD send out mails and summary
15:47:46 <FranciscoD> 4
15:47:53 <FranciscoD> 3
15:47:59 <FranciscoD> 2.81
15:48:05 <FranciscoD> 2
15:48:08 <FranciscoD> 1.99
15:48:11 <FranciscoD> 1
15:48:13 <FranciscoD> 0
15:48:15 <skamath> Fire!
15:48:17 <FranciscoD> kaboom!
15:48:20 <FranciscoD> #endmeeting