00:03:00 <Sparks> #startmeeting
00:03:01 <Sparks> #meetingtopic Docs Meeting
00:03:01 <Sparks> #topic Agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
00:03:11 <radsy> oooh, that's cool
00:03:20 <Sparks> Roll Call
00:03:23 * Sparks is here
00:03:25 * radsy is here
00:04:25 * jjmcd would like to clear by 0100Z
00:05:23 * ianweller is sorta kind here maybe
00:05:30 * rudi is here
00:05:31 <Sparks> jjmcd:  me too
00:05:48 <jjmcd> Japanese Game Show?
00:06:03 <Sparks> jjmcd: Yes
00:06:08 <jjmcd> ;-)
00:07:11 * kgs wonders if visitors introduce themselves
00:07:17 <Sparks> sure!
00:07:53 <Sparks> Okay, let's get started...
00:07:59 <Sparks> #topic Meeting procedures
00:08:12 <Sparks> You may have noticed that we have a new bot in the room with us taking notes.  Fedbot is a new bot that automates some channel maintenance for the OPs but also has some real nifty meeting commands as well.  You can read more about this bot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
00:08:17 * quaid is here now
00:08:31 <Sparks> To get the most out of this bot we should learn to use the following commands:
00:08:34 <Sparks> info - Add an info item to the minutes. People should liberally use this for important things they say, so that they can be logged in the minutes.
00:08:37 <Sparks> action - Document an action item in the minutes. Include any nicknames in the line, and the item will be assigned to them. (nicknames are case-sensitive)
00:08:40 <Sparks> idea - Add an idea to the minutes.
00:08:43 <Sparks> help - Add a "Call for Help" to the minutes. Use this command when you need to recruit someone to do a task. (Counter-intuitively, this doesn't provide help on the bot)
00:08:45 <Sparks> link - Add a link to the meeting minutes. The link should be the first non-command on the line, other commentary after the link is OK. Links beginning with http:// and a few other protocols are automatically detected.
00:08:50 <Sparks> All commands start with a # so you have to use that (i.e. #idea).
00:08:51 * Sparks pauses for any query...
00:09:08 <quaid> what does the result look like?
00:09:13 * zoglesby is here
00:09:14 <quaid> I've seen a log before, but it was just bold faced stuff
00:09:31 * nirik notes he will in the next few days be getting it setup to log to a fedoraproject machine and run from zodbot.
00:09:38 <Sparks> quaid: I don't know.  I guess we'll see
00:09:41 <quaid> ah, Ok
00:09:51 <nirik> output looks like: http://fedorapeople.org/~kevin/fedora-meeting/2009/fedora-meeting.2009-06-12-17.01.html
00:09:58 <quaid> so it's somewhat data capture for now?  we don't have it auto-generating logs for mailing lists, etc yet?
00:10:13 <quaid> ah!
00:10:22 <Sparks> Hmmm...
00:10:34 <Sparks> Yeah, that's going to take some getting used to.
00:10:43 <quaid> ok, much better, thanks; I'd only seen a straight IRC log generation
00:11:25 <nirik> not yet, but I am working with upstream and he's been fixing things like mad. ;)
00:11:41 <nirik> if anyone has suggestions/changes/thoughts, feel free to ping me with them and I will pass them on.
00:11:54 <Sparks> nirik: I'll probably have some for you in an hour.
00:12:03 <nirik> sounds good. ;)
00:12:54 <Sparks> Okay...
00:12:57 <Sparks> I'd also like to start using Meeting Protocols (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRCHowTo#Meeting_Protocol) for our meetings.  I think it will help keep the momentum up and we won't waste time.
00:13:02 <Sparks> Basically, all you have to do is follow these simple instructions:
00:13:04 <Sparks> 1. Please watch what others are doing and do not interrupt
00:13:07 <Sparks> 2. If you have a question, type "?"
00:13:10 <Sparks> 3. If you need to speak, type "!"
00:13:12 <Sparks> 4. If you're done speaking, type "eof"
00:13:14 <Sparks> Any questions or comments?
00:13:17 <Sparks> 5. If you agree, type "+1"
00:13:27 <quaid> hmmm
00:13:36 <quaid> I won't say no personally, but
00:13:47 <quaid> I've found those to be most helpful where the common language
00:13:57 <quaid> is not the first language spoken of participants.
00:14:09 <quaid> so, it would be a good practice to welcome non-native English speakers
00:14:33 <quaid> but it does interrupt flow
00:14:34 <quaid> <eof>
00:14:50 <ianweller> +1
00:15:07 <Sparks> Well, we seem to take a while typing things we want to say and I'm not sure if I'm waiting for someone to respond or not.
00:15:18 <radsy> +1
00:15:33 <ianweller> (oh by the way i was +1ing quaid)
00:15:51 <quaid> Sparks: I do like eof as a convention, yeah
00:15:58 <quaid> it's a kindness
00:16:19 <Sparks> I'm not looking for strict adherence... but just for folks to keep in mind if they want to say something so I know they are typing something
00:18:07 <Sparks> Okay, anyone have anything else to say before we move on to the REAL important stuff?
00:18:17 <radsy> no
00:18:30 <rudi> no <eof>
00:18:32 <jjmcd> ^Z
00:18:45 <Sparks> #topic [[FAD SELF 2009]] After action report
00:18:57 <Sparks> We had a wonderful time at the Fedora Activity Day (FAD) after SELF in Clemson.  We had a couple of participants that remotely attended the session and six people who were physically in Clemson.
00:19:18 <Sparks> Everyone should have received the final "notes" from the FAD.
00:19:39 <Sparks> Has everyone had a change to look over the notes?
00:19:49 <Sparks> And does anyone have any questions about the FAD?
00:20:02 <jjmcd> ?
00:20:06 <Sparks> jjmcd: Yes
00:20:24 <jjmcd> Do we have a plan to get names attached to those action items not taken?
00:21:17 <Sparks> jjmcd: Not as of yet.  But we should.  If you want to take something then go for it.
00:21:28 <jjmcd> !
00:21:44 <Sparks> Oh I see this going badly
00:21:47 <Sparks> jjmcd: yes?
00:21:54 <jjmcd> We should also take poelcat's suggestion to use that list and the retrospective list as a potential task list for new joiners
00:22:06 <Sparks> +1
00:22:11 <jjmcd> eof
00:22:13 <zoglesby> +1
00:22:17 <quaid> ! Sparks: one option is to have people just ! and ? then speak, without being cleared by the moderator; that is, self-police a bit :)
00:22:26 <Sparks> Yes...
00:22:35 <Sparks> I guess that's kinda what I meant.
00:22:38 <Sparks> quaid: Thank you
00:22:40 <jjmcd> !
00:22:52 <jjmcd> Doesn't make a lot of diff when you type as slow as me
00:22:59 <Sparks> :)
00:23:36 <Sparks> jjmcd: I'll try to put together a list of items to do from the FAD and let's see what we can get done.
00:23:47 <zoglesby> ?
00:23:56 <uclugLee> Greetings and salutations.
00:24:02 <Sparks> Yes Zach
00:24:14 <zoglesby> Did we get anywere with the calendar after the FAD?
00:24:41 <Sparks> zoglesby: Kinda...  I want to talk to poelcat to see if he can help.
00:24:46 <zoglesby> I didn't see it in the notes, but we talked about it for a while
00:24:57 <zoglesby> ok
00:24:57 <zoglesby> eof
00:24:58 <Sparks> zoglesby: There is a calendaring program coming down the line
00:25:52 <Sparks> Anything else for the FAD?
00:26:24 <Sparks> #topic [[Docs_decisions_for_F12]]
00:26:44 <Sparks> jjmcd: Would you like to talk about this since you started the topic?
00:27:00 <jjmcd> Well I think we covered a lot Sunday
00:27:15 <jjmcd> We have some new ideas on RN's
00:27:34 <jjmcd> Content, perhaps a totally new organization, I see some more ideas on f-d-l
00:28:02 <jjmcd> We have a better understanding on the l10n issues, as well as the codes (although no decisiosn there)
00:28:23 <jjmcd> Rudi has prempted the Publican question ;-))
00:28:31 <Sparks> :)
00:28:37 <rudi> :D
00:28:39 <jjmcd> Still no real answer on homepage and how to actually present them
00:28:53 <jjmcd> I think we have some really good plans tho
00:29:05 <jjmcd> but we need to share them more widely before implementing
00:29:17 <jjmcd> Not sure we are necessarily aware of the URQs
00:29:22 <jjmcd> eof
00:29:24 <Sparks> URQs?
00:29:34 <jjmcd> User Requirements
00:29:37 <Sparks> Ahh
00:29:53 <jjmcd> <---- requirements geek
00:30:00 <Sparks> I think one thing that stickster had a good idea about was the different expectations...
00:30:26 <Sparks> by different users.  One set wants the one page, with pictures, RNs while...
00:30:29 <jjmcd> Yes.  I think the breaking down into different formats langs has some merit
00:30:42 <Sparks> the more techy group wants the 1000 page RNs with all the info.
00:30:48 <jjmcd> but that is a big change that probably negatively impacts someone
00:30:49 <jjmcd> Yes
00:31:05 <jjmcd> ALtho I still think that ALL the changes with just a link covers 95% of that
00:31:14 <Sparks> I want to talk with the Marketing folks about it more.
00:31:19 <jjmcd> as in the example I pointed to somewhere
00:32:11 <jjmcd> wait
00:32:26 <jjmcd> #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Jjmcd/Drafts/Test_of_table_RNs
00:32:40 <jjmcd> Did everyone get a look at that?
00:33:05 <jjmcd> highlight a few biggies and list all the rest
00:33:09 <Sparks> I didn't... Have now
00:33:20 <jjmcd> reduces translation and increases the data
00:33:38 <Sparks> Good combinations
00:33:40 <jjmcd> THat way qnyone waiting for a feature/bugfix can see if its there
00:34:22 <jjmcd> Needless to say, the table is produced by a script
00:34:35 <jjmcd> Well, program
00:35:36 <Sparks> Cool
00:36:13 <Sparks> Okay, anything else on the F12 discussion?
00:36:15 <jjmcd> I need more comments on wiki page tho, or here or list
00:36:39 * jjmcd will blog on ppl issues
00:36:53 <Sparks> Excellent.
00:37:05 <Sparks> Okay.... moving on...
00:37:10 <Sparks> #topic Status on [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/us/ CC] license discussion.  <--quaid
00:37:18 <Sparks> quaid: Do you have an update for us?
00:37:18 <quaid> ok
00:37:32 <quaid> I may cover what was said last week, but ...
00:38:02 <quaid> we want an all-clear from Content Services; it sounds good, waiting also to see mhideo's plans.
00:38:09 <quaid> and I guess I still owe a write-up to f-a-b?
00:38:37 <quaid> yes, I do
00:38:58 <quaid> #action - quaid needs to send a "mother may we" email to f-a-b
00:39:11 <Sparks> ?
00:39:30 <Sparks> When do you think we'll be able to change over?  ETA?
00:39:34 <quaid> well, this covers wiki content, we should be consensus seeking v. demanding :)
00:39:49 <quaid> no ETA, guess I need to articulate an actual plan with dates and stuffnow
00:40:00 <quaid> #action - quaid needs to specify an action plan around relicensing
00:40:30 <quaid> so, really ... no change from last week afair :/
00:40:43 <Sparks> Okay...  At least we are up to date.
00:41:13 <Sparks> Anyone have anything else?
00:41:44 <kgs> thank you for taking the lead here -- it sets a good example for other projects considering this stuff
00:41:45 <Sparks> #topic [https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2009-June/msg00163.html Shared open-source style guide]
00:42:44 <Sparks> Okay...  I think stickster asked me to add this to the agenda...
00:42:55 <Sparks> but I haven't really had time to look at it...
00:43:05 <Sparks> so I don't have anything to say about it, yet.
00:43:22 <Sparks> Would anyone like to say anything about it?
00:43:25 <zoglesby> ?
00:43:38 <Sparks> Go ahead Zach.
00:43:58 <zoglesby> I am not sure the point, every group works diffrent, would a guide that basic be worth the time?
00:44:24 <Sparks> Yeah, I'm not sure of their end result.
00:44:45 * jjmcd had similar concerns
00:45:12 <Sparks> #action Sparks to find out more information on the shared style guide request.
00:45:52 <zoglesby> eof
00:46:17 <Sparks> Anyone else?
00:46:31 <jjmcd> I can see some benefit from shared development
00:46:54 <jjmcd> and idea generation but wonder whether the benefit is worth it since it wouild need to be so generic
00:47:01 <jjmcd> eof
00:47:30 <Sparks> Yeah, that's the problem I've been fighting...
00:47:41 <Sparks> I'll try to get more information for next week.
00:47:45 <Sparks> Anyone else?
00:48:04 <Sparks> #topic [[CMS_solution_for_Fedora_Project_websites | CMS Update]] <-- ke4qqq
00:48:22 <Sparks> Is ke4qqq here tonight?
00:48:57 <Sparks> I guess not.
00:49:05 <zoglesby> ?
00:49:12 <Sparks> So I think all the modules have been packaged, now.
00:49:22 <zoglesby> How much stuff got packaged and is there a list of wats left?
00:49:33 <zoglesby> oh i can read!
00:49:54 <Sparks> One of my packages got rejected due to a licensing issue so I'll be working with Simon to figure out what's going on.
00:50:16 <ianweller> there's no such thing as a "rejected" package
00:50:17 <Sparks> zoglesby: Yeah, there might be one left.  Get with me afterwards and I'll check BZ.
00:50:18 <ianweller> just one that isn't approved yet
00:50:25 <ianweller> unless it's in ForbiddenItems
00:50:29 * ianweller heads back out
00:50:30 <Sparks> Yeah... what he said.
00:50:52 <zoglesby> what was the license?
00:51:00 <Sparks> CC-BY-SA 2.5
00:51:26 <Sparks> Which is not compatible with GPL
00:51:59 <zoglesby> did anyone contact the dev yet?
00:52:29 <Sparks> This project is being planned to be online within 60 days.  We've asked poelcat to assist us with the PM.
00:52:49 <Sparks> zoglesby: Yeah, Simon (itbegins) is our developer contact.
00:53:25 <Sparks> Anyone have any other questions or comments?
00:53:48 <Sparks> #topic [[DocsProject]] wiki pages changes
00:53:57 <Sparks> Okay, we haven't talked about this one in a while...
00:54:40 <Sparks> I think ianweller is planning on getting the wikibot working
00:54:53 <Sparks> this summer so hopefully we'll be able to let the bot
00:55:01 <Sparks> loose to do some of our work for us.
00:55:13 <Sparks> Anyone have any questions or comments?
00:56:17 <Sparks> #topic Calendar
00:56:59 <Sparks> Well, poelcat just sent me a message on #fedora-docs about an .ics file that he is working on for F12.
00:57:36 <Sparks> I'm sure he'll put stuff on there for us so that might be the short term solution...
00:57:48 <Sparks> until we get our calendaring solution.
00:58:15 <Sparks> #link  http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/f-12.ics
00:58:15 <zoglesby> +1
00:58:21 <poelcat> easiest way to get stuff into TJ/ics file is email with with:
00:58:32 <poelcat> 1) name of task (using action words/verbs)
00:58:35 <poelcat> 2) start date
00:58:39 <poelcat> 3) how many days it takes
00:58:46 <poelcat> 4) dependency on other tasks
00:59:14 <Sparks> Cool!
00:59:24 <Sparks> anyone have any questions or comments?
00:59:42 <Sparks> Thanks poelcat
00:59:43 * poelcat needs to publish draft of docs schedule for f12 so you all can pick it apart
00:59:58 <poelcat> will target fri or monday
01:00:13 <Sparks> poelcat: That will be great.
01:00:41 <Sparks> #topic All other business
01:00:54 <Sparks> Okay, due to the hour...  Does anyone have anything they want to talk about?
01:01:05 <radsy> !
01:01:21 <Sparks> radsy: Go ahead
01:01:22 <radsy> #link http://sradvan.fedorapeople.org/SELinux_Managing_Confined_Services/en-US/html-single/#chap-Managing_Confined_Services-Squid_Caching_Proxy is what i'm working on, for those interested in a look
01:01:47 <radsy> eof
01:01:58 <Sparks> radsy: Very cool.  Do you need any additional resources?
01:02:05 <radsy> no
01:02:32 <Sparks> Okay, anyone else?
01:02:48 <perspectival> I think I'll take this time to speak up
01:02:55 <Sparks> perspectival: Go ahead
01:03:13 <perspectival> I'm Silas and I'm going to be working on the Deployment Guide for F12
01:03:21 <perspectival> there is a new branch in svn
01:03:47 <perspectival> unfortunately that's about all I know at this point :-) but I did want to say hello and let you all know about it
01:04:17 <quaid> howdy
01:04:21 <Sparks> perspectival: How different in mission is the Deployment Guide from the Installation Guide?
01:04:48 <perspectival> So Greetings!
01:04:49 <perspectival> the deployment guide is different in that it's more of a system administration guide
01:05:09 <Sparks> perspectival: Excellent!  Do you need any resources?
01:05:29 <perspectival> I will pass on that question until next time if you don't mind
01:05:40 <perspectival> still figuring out the way forward ;-)
01:05:50 <Sparks> perspectival: No problem!
01:05:51 <perspectival> I am accepting any and all hints and tips at this point though
01:06:06 <perspectival> am paying attention to fedora-docs list, etc.
01:06:46 <perspectival> <eof for now>
01:06:57 <Sparks> Okay.
01:07:00 <Sparks> Anyone else?
01:08:08 <Sparks> Okay, I'm calling it a night then...
01:08:08 <Sparks> 5
01:08:11 <Sparks> 4
01:08:16 <Sparks> 3
01:08:20 <Sparks> 2
01:08:24 <Sparks> 1
01:08:31 <Sparks> #endmeeting