14:59:14 <rjune_wrk> #startmeeting
14:59:17 <comphappy> Here for 10min
14:59:26 <LinuxCode> here
14:59:48 <SMParrish> here
15:01:01 <rjune_wrk> meeting bot commands are found at #link http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot
15:01:31 <arxs> hello guys
15:01:42 <rjune_wrk> arxs: backup chair for me?
15:01:48 <mcepl> /me
15:01:58 <arxs> rjune_wrk: well
15:02:04 <mcepl> no, not me!
15:02:19 <arxs> mcepl: no worry, i take it :)
15:02:33 <rjune_wrk> #chair arxs
15:02:38 <rjune_wrk> #topic - Triage Metrics - Update on the FAS integration and overall status.
15:02:48 <rjune_wrk> comphappy: make your quick announcement?
15:03:15 * poelcat here
15:03:47 * adamw here too
15:03:55 <rjune_wrk> #chair adamw
15:05:02 <arxs> hmm, maybe comphappy can't here us as the bus? :)
15:05:03 <comphappy> Alright I had fas intigration working last night locally then added some features jlaska wanted that meddled with the backend db and the thing blewup on me I need to take a look tonight. I also got component groups working via fast.
15:05:22 <comphappy> Phone slow to typeon
15:05:27 <rjune_wrk> comphappy: any chance of it being finished by the next meeting?
15:05:41 <comphappy> Likely tonight
15:05:42 <rjune_wrk> barring more backend meddling? :-)
15:06:09 <rjune_wrk> Anybody else have anything to add?
15:06:10 * poelcat 
15:06:11 <adamw> motion: quit listening to jlaska, he only causes trouble ;)
15:06:16 <comphappy> Release is coming up soon it needs testing.
15:07:04 <comphappy> adamw: Added rawhide features I think you willl like
15:07:21 <poelcat> comphappy: how about the bugs/RFEs I filed?
15:07:35 <adamw> comphappy: great work, thanks as always
15:07:53 <comphappy> poelcat: At least a few are making it in
15:08:25 <poelcat> cool, thanks!
15:08:40 <rjune_wrk> Just for completeness, what is FAS an acronym for?
15:08:46 <poelcat> comphappy: and thanks again for all your work on this
15:08:53 <arxs> fedora account system
15:09:08 <comphappy> Mostly this is features in the backend I am fixing. Ones that can't really be changed post release
15:09:27 <arxs> you can find it on https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/
15:09:35 <comphappy> But there are other fixes as well.
15:09:49 <rjune_wrk> #link https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/
15:09:59 * comphappy done talking
15:10:05 <rjune_wrk> comphappy: go through the full list next week?
15:10:37 <comphappy> rjune_wrk: Some no as they are fixes to other packages
15:10:43 <rjune_wrk> good enough, thanks.
15:10:50 <rjune_wrk> #topic - Component list update for the F12 cycle - Update on status.
15:11:06 <rjune_wrk> arxs: your floor
15:11:35 <arxs> #action comphappy get the fas intigration working until next week, likely tonight, done for Triage Metrics
15:11:45 <arxs> ok, if send a mail to the f-t-l
15:12:12 <comphappy> arxs: Looked like a good list to me
15:12:19 <arxs> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2009-June/msg00757.html
15:12:32 <arxs> you can find the list at the wiki under https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Arxs/CPCL
15:12:37 <arxs> comphappy: thanks
15:12:48 <arxs> but one thing is maybe missing, a DE
15:12:49 <adamw> does the proposal _remove_ any components?
15:13:27 <arxs> adamw: it don't think to (you mean from the actually components and triagers list?)
15:13:46 <adamw> yeah, does the new list miss any components that are on the old list
15:13:57 * comphappy off to quarterly review.
15:14:52 <arxs> no, my plan is (sorry if this was not clear) to bug the CPCL list into the actually components and triagers list, so that we have at the end only more items
15:14:53 <adamw> cya comphappy, thanks a gain
15:15:12 <arxs> s/bug/get/
15:15:18 <adamw> arxs: ah, ok. we don't want to grow forever, but that's probably good for this cycle, as we've been running out of components for new members :)
15:15:24 <adamw> which is a good problem to have, heh
15:15:37 <arxs> adamw: of course! :)
15:16:32 <mcepl> these components are just symbolic names, right, you don't mean to test virtual components like xorg-x11-drivers for real?
15:16:35 <adamw> in that case, looks good to me
15:16:57 <adamw> some things we can pare; for xorg for instance we don't really need to consider _all_ drivers critical
15:17:01 <mcepl> and I have never seen a bug against xorg-x11-xauth
15:17:21 <arxs> mcepl: well, i think we should only take care of nouveau, radeon and intel
15:17:38 <mcepl> the real drivers were is life are -ati, -intel, -nouveau, perhaps -vesa, to be sure
15:17:52 * SMParrish agrees
15:17:53 <adamw> openchrome is worth caring about too
15:17:59 <adamw> (just about)
15:18:09 <mcepl> yeah, I am forgetting ... it is not managed by RH engineers
15:18:12 <adamw> aside from that, even if they're totally broken we'd probably still ship :D
15:18:28 <mcepl> well, let me not comment on that ;-)
15:18:42 <adamw> but in general, looks good
15:18:52 <mcepl> (just spent whole day plowing through -ati bugs)
15:19:31 <arxs> ok, i going to remove xauth and change the xorg-drivers to ati, nouveau, intel and openchrome
15:19:33 <adamw> we might not need to worry about the compose packages as there's a fairly tight loop there between the guys building and the guys using
15:19:44 <adamw> that's pungi, mash et al
15:20:42 <arxs> that was also my feeling about, i think we should cut off the list after the line 'The following items are unchanged included here from skvidal's list.'
15:20:59 <mcepl> what about Pulseaudio? why not?
15:21:24 <arxs> mcepl: Pulseaudo is one the 'old' list, and it will remain there
15:21:29 <adamw> some are worth having - bash, coreutils, gcc are things we could cover
15:21:35 <mcepl> ok
15:21:45 <adamw> the others there are important but mostly are so mature they're unlikely to suffer problems serious enough to care about
15:22:10 <arxs> adamw: right, but how many bugs are there? (maybe gcc, but i don't check this)
15:23:42 <arxs> any other suggestion's?
15:24:49 <SMParrish> keep on mind that all dependenices of critical packages will also be critical packages
15:25:11 <arxs> SMParrish: good point
15:25:13 <adamw> yeah, we could look at the list of deps for anything in the final list
15:26:05 <adamw> but i think overall we're good with arxs' list...thanks for your work there :)
15:26:34 <SMParrish> what we need to do is generate a list of all the dependencies on the list arcs made to see how many packages were are talking about and how to group them
15:26:48 <SMParrish> s/arcs/arxs
15:27:56 <arxs> SMParrish: this can be done with "repoquery --wahtrequires" or i'm wrong?
15:28:21 <adamw> just repoquery --requires
15:29:11 <arxs> i will change the list to the given suggestion by you, and then bring up a second list with all the deps.
15:29:14 <mcepl> no, repoquery --whatrequires --alldeps <package>
15:29:35 <adamw> uh? i'm not sure we're on the same page :)
15:29:36 <mcepl> (plain --requires is for groups)
15:29:45 <adamw> --whatrequires foo gives you things that require foo, doesn't it?
15:29:49 <adamw> that's not what we want
15:29:52 <adamw> we want what foo requires
15:30:07 <mcepl> yes
15:30:10 <SMParrish> adamw  is right
15:30:10 <mcepl> sorry, once more
15:30:59 <mcepl> yeah, but none of these will give you names of package, a sec
15:31:34 <adamw> you need to pipe it a bit
15:31:39 <mcepl> --requires --resolve is probably the right combination
15:32:02 <adamw> oh yes, that does it - neat
15:32:09 <SMParrish> thats it
15:32:14 <adamw> i used to pipe that through another --provides query, that way's much better
15:32:21 <adamw> (your way i mean :>)
15:32:23 <arxs> i will try it, if not "yum remove" show also the deps :)
15:32:28 <rjune_wrk> LOL
15:32:43 <mcepl> yeah, but it has some side-effects ;-)
15:33:10 <rjune_wrk> that everything for this topic?
15:33:16 <SMParrish> so to get an idea gdm has the following deps that will have to be critical pkgs as well http://fpaste.org/paste/16920
15:33:29 <arxs> rjune_wrk: yes i think so
15:33:50 <adamw> they don't necessarily have to be critical, but we should consider whether they are
15:33:55 <mcepl> there's something wrong -- freetype-freeworld is not Fedora package
15:34:00 <adamw> so arxs, make us another list :D
15:34:01 <rjune_wrk> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Arxs/CPCL  arxs's list of update componants
15:34:06 <rjune_wrk> #action arxs will update the list with requirements iformation for next meeting.
15:34:18 <rjune_wrk> #topic - Bugzilla Legend - Unify bugzilla defs between RHEL and Fedora
15:34:25 <rjune_wrk> adamw: this one is for you
15:34:26 <SMParrish> mcepl: could be because I have rpmfusion repos enabled here
15:34:33 <adamw> er, it is?
15:34:38 <mcepl> yup, I think so, just emphasizing
15:34:43 <rjune_wrk> adamw sent a message to the list about this for beland. Hopefully we can
15:34:45 <rjune_wrk> > have an update.
15:34:46 <rjune_wrk> yup.
15:35:00 <rjune_wrk> It's from the add it to the agenda page.
15:35:06 * adamw is lost...what message is this?
15:35:29 <rjune_wrk> I do not know, there is suprisingly little information on the agenda page to pick it up and track it
15:36:01 <rjune_wrk> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers:meeting-agenda-list
15:36:02 <adamw> well, er, i sort of abandoned unifying the definitions a while ago
15:36:19 <adamw> what i've been working on since is just having the fedora definitions properly defined and linked to from bugzilla
15:36:25 <adamw> i'm mostly done with that, as far as I knew :)
15:36:29 <rjune_wrk> has that been communicated to beland?
15:36:38 <adamw> is this an old addition to the agenda list maybe?
15:36:43 <adamw> let me look at the wiki page history
15:36:49 <rjune_wrk> could be. if so it needs to be removed.
15:37:15 <adamw> yeah, it's old, last change to the page was 18 may
15:37:21 <adamw> clean it out :)
15:37:42 <rjune_wrk> will do
15:38:06 <rjune_wrk> #topic - Debugging pages
15:38:30 <adamw> now this one i know where we're at :)
15:38:34 <rjune_wrk> good.
15:38:45 <adamw> this came out of a qa proposal by viking-ice, but obviously touches on bz stuff as well
15:39:00 <rjune_wrk> bz is?
15:39:03 <rjune_wrk> bugzilla.
15:39:04 <arxs> bugzilla
15:39:05 <adamw> bugzappers
15:39:08 <rjune_wrk> doh!
15:39:10 <adamw> :D
15:39:24 <adamw> i think the way the x.org page came out was great, and any contributions anyone can come up with to that or other debugging pages would be awesome
15:39:38 <adamw> and if your triage component(s) don't have a page, consider making one
15:40:11 <adamw> i've also had a proposal from a guy at ubuntu to work together on upstreaming the content of those pages where possible; anyone see any problems with doing that?
15:40:27 <adamw> e.g. we'd merge the content of the ubuntu and fedora wiki pages on debugging x.org, and send it upstream to the x.org wiki
15:40:41 <rjune_wrk> adamw: link to the x.org page?
15:40:54 <adamw> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Xorg/Debugging
15:41:10 <mcepl> adamw: no, I think wiki is covered by CC license or something anyway .... but be sure to check versions of packages ... bubuntu is behind us (not that broken ;-))
15:41:10 <rjune_wrk> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Xorg/Debugging
15:41:34 <rjune_wrk> I think it's probably a good idea
15:41:48 <arxs> well, the NM page is not ready for release: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Arxs/NetworkManager/Debugging
15:41:54 <adamw> mcepl: that's the good part: debugging *procedures* aren't really distro specific
15:41:59 <arxs> but i work on this :)
15:42:05 <adamw> arxs: awesome! thanks a lot
15:42:20 <adamw> looks like you've got a good start going
15:42:23 <mcepl> sure, but I think they haven't immersed themselves into KMS that much, which may make things slightly different
15:42:30 <adamw> if you need any help do shout on the list, we got the X page done collaboratively pretty well
15:42:50 <adamw> mcepl: not really, it just needs a little bit in the intro to say "on distros X Y Z don't bother with the KMS stuff"
15:43:01 <adamw> but in practice, current ubuntu releases have kms enabled by default, they just don't _do_ anything with it
15:43:10 <mcepl> adamw: and there is continuation about input devices for X on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Xorg/Input_Triage_Algorithm and https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Input_device_configuration
15:43:34 <mcepl> adamw: yeah, but we (and them) have to be aware of it
15:43:41 <rjune_wrk> mcepl: KMS is ?
15:43:47 <mcepl> kernel modesetting
15:43:48 <arxs> Kernel Mode Setting
15:44:01 <adamw> mcepl: sure, but i don't think that'd be a problem. that's part of what we could work on together.
15:44:08 <mcepl> moving some parts of X drivers to kernel
15:44:13 <mcepl> sure
15:44:37 <adamw> so for now i've told that guy we'd probably be happy to go with it, and asked a few questions, and i'm waiting for a reply from him
15:44:43 <adamw> once we have something concrete to propose, we'll take it to the list
15:45:01 <rjune_wrk> wonderful, make it a brief update item next week?
15:45:06 <adamw> sounds good
15:45:32 <rjune_wrk> #action adamw will update on collaboration with Ubuntu on debugging procedures.
15:45:43 <rjune_wrk> #topic - Open Floor
15:45:59 * LinuxCode raises his hand
15:46:16 <rjune_wrk> Yes.
15:46:21 <arxs> rjune_wrk: did you know that the diff is from action and agreed ?
15:46:36 <arxs> in MeetBot :)
15:46:42 <rjune_wrk> action is person X will do something
15:46:47 <rjune_wrk> agreed is there is a consensus
15:47:02 <mcepl> I have almost ready release of next version of the Greasemonkey script, but I need to finish testing (we did something with arxs yesterday, but he hasn't confirmed me that I have fixed his problems). It is quite radical change, so I don't want to push it on you without testing. OTOH, if nobody volunteers, I just will and pick up the pieces. I need to move on with the stuff.
15:47:14 <arxs> rjune_wrk: thanks for the info
15:47:29 <adamw> mcepl: sorry i couldn't test for you earlier
15:47:35 * LinuxCode waits for voice
15:47:36 <rjune_wrk> mcepl: You're jumping the gun a little bit, and LinuxCode has something to bring up.
15:47:43 <adamw> LinuxCode: you don't need voice, afaik
15:47:46 <mcepl> adamw: there is always time for penitence ;-)
15:47:48 <adamw> LinuxCode: we're not restricted
15:47:56 * mcepl shuts up
15:48:05 <LinuxCode> adamw, was just going to introduce myself as I just applied to the traiging group
15:48:08 <arxs> mcepl: let's talk about it after the meeting?
15:48:09 <LinuxCode> triaging
15:48:13 <adamw> awesome! thanks for applying
15:48:20 <rjune_wrk> LinuxCode: did you send your intro to the list?
15:48:24 <arxs> LinuxCode: welcome !
15:48:33 <LinuxCode> rjune_wrk, no, didnt know that was required
15:48:36 <adamw> you should actually apply to 'fedorabugs' rather than 'triagers'
15:48:37 <mcepl> arxs: yeah, I just wanted to make announcement here ... apparnetly, nobody cares when I speak on #fedora-bugzappers
15:48:47 <LinuxCode> but some of you might know me anyway
15:48:55 <arxs> mcepl: i care :)
15:48:57 <Viking-Ice> What's the story with this ubuntu debugging collaboration?
15:48:57 <mcepl> adamw: what's triagers anyway?
15:49:08 <mcepl> Viking-Ice: see above
15:49:18 <adamw> LinuxCode: see the procedure :) https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/Joining
15:49:19 <mcepl> Viking-Ice: do you need a backlog?
15:49:31 <adamw> Viking-Ice: i really just filled them in on what i mentioned to you in pm earlier
15:49:36 <adamw> Viking-Ice: nothing new, i haven't heard back from the guy yet
15:49:46 <adamw> mcepl: i
15:49:56 <adamw> mcepl: i'll explain outside the meeting, let's not fill up the logs
15:50:09 <adamw> oh darn
15:50:23 <adamw> i just realized you got it right and i was wrong, it's triagers not fedorabugs you should apply to, sorry :)
15:50:25 <adamw> getting confused
15:50:28 <LinuxCode> k so points 5 + 7 I still have to do
15:50:37 <adamw> so just send your intro to the list and i'll approve you
15:50:43 <LinuxCode> I get on it asap
15:50:51 <rjune_wrk> LinuxCode: happy to have you.
15:50:53 <adamw> that's right, thanks again
15:50:56 <adamw> if you hang out in
15:50:58 <adamw> grr
15:51:00 <LinuxCode> well, every little helps
15:51:13 <adamw> damn laptop keyboard...in #fedora-bugzappers after the meeting, some of us may be able to help you get started
15:51:54 <rjune_wrk> mcepl: ok, knock yourself ut.
15:51:55 <rjune_wrk> out
15:51:56 <LinuxCode> adamw, sure, thomasj suggested I join the bugs group, but then somebody told me that it will slip into triage now
15:52:16 <arxs> adamw: did you _not_ take your ibm type m keybord with out while you traveling?
15:52:32 <adamw> arxs: surprisingly enough...no :)
15:52:45 <adamw> LinuxCode: yeah, triagers was the right group, sorry to confuse
15:52:54 <LinuxCode> thats ok, no worries
15:53:00 <adamw> great to have you :)
15:53:07 <LinuxCode> ;-}
15:53:16 <rjune_wrk> we have 8 minutes left, lets get to mcepl and his update and close the meeting.
15:53:23 <adamw> i had something to add, too, btw.
15:53:31 <rjune_wrk> ok
15:53:38 <rjune_wrk> you can be after mcepl
15:53:39 * arxs listen
15:53:40 <adamw> sure
15:53:55 <mcepl> rjune_wrk: I think I said my stuff, just come to #fedora-bugzappers and let's beat the bugs out of the thing
15:54:09 <rjune_wrk> please test so we have some testing.
15:54:12 <rjune_wrk> adamw: all you
15:54:15 <adamw> thanks :)
15:54:21 <adamw> just on the priority / severity thing
15:54:43 <adamw> the restrictions have been made in bugzilla and i updated the 'how to triage' page, so please be setting the 'severity' field for all bugs you triage from now on
15:55:14 <adamw> the guidelines are pretty simple - most stuff is 'normal', bad breakage in the package is 'high', bad breakage that has implications distro-wide is 'urgent', really trivial stuff is 'low'
15:55:21 <rjune_wrk> triagers get severity, and developers get priority, correct?
15:55:22 <arxs> adamw: thanks to make this possible!
15:55:36 <adamw> rjune_wrk: yes, according to mcepl's proposal. don't touch priority at all.
15:55:38 <arxs> rjune_wrk: right
15:56:10 <adamw> so to put this into use, we will be reviewing all bugs marked 'urgent' at the blocker review meetings, to make sure none of those that should be blockers slip through the net
15:56:16 <arxs> i can see, from the triage of the last month, no severity war on more then 20 bugs :)
15:56:39 <adamw> i'm also going to experiment with doing a weekly review of 'urgent' bugs, sent to f-t-l and f-d-l, to see how that goes: i'll write one this friday, if it works out well, it may be nice for someone else to take that over
15:56:46 <adamw> i'll ask for volunteers in the mail :)
15:57:19 <arxs> adamw: sounds good
15:57:22 <mcepl> the main difference between urgent and high (just to emphasize) is that urgent breaks whole distro, high breaks (w/o workaround) just the particular app
15:57:32 <rjune_wrk> Kevin_Kofler: we're wrapping up, you'll have it shortly.
15:57:44 <mcepl> normal means there are some workarounds or some parts of app still work
15:58:12 <rjune_wrk> and that all should be in the wiki page.
15:58:13 <mcepl> and it's all highly dependent on component
15:58:20 <mcepl> I think it is
15:58:25 <adamw> yeah, i've updated one page but not the legend page yet
15:58:31 <arxs> it is
15:58:31 <adamw> which takes a slightly more formal approach
15:58:32 <adamw> we can do that soon
15:58:40 <rjune_wrk> ok, the KDE SIG is here for the room, let's give them a minute to setup.
15:58:43 <adamw> yeah, we don't have to be too hard-and-fast on the definitions
15:58:45 <jlaska> comphappy: <delayed response> I'm afraid adamw is right ... I do frequently just cause trouble :)
15:58:55 <rjune_wrk> bugzappers event in #fedora-bugzappers.
15:58:56 <adamw> the important thing is to have a useful continuum
15:59:01 <adamw> thanks all!
15:59:06 <rjune_wrk> ending in 5
15:59:16 <rjune_wrk> #endmeeting