19:01:27 <mchua> #startmeeting
19:01:33 * mchua <3 meetbot
19:01:38 * Sparks is here.
19:01:49 * ianweller falls into the channel
19:01:51 <mchua> themayor is on vacation and Jack has asked me to fill in for him for the next two meetings.
19:01:55 * rislam here
19:02:34 <mchua> I'm learning on the job, so holler if I should be doing something different, moixs has already started coaching me on what goes on.
19:02:48 <mchua> sounds like the order of the day is to walk through our roadmap and get owners assigned to tasks.
19:03:24 <mchua> that would be https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing_F12_schedule
19:03:46 <mchua> make your frantic changes to the wiki now. :)
19:04:12 <mchua> I'd like to start with the 5 tasks on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing_F12_schedule#The_6_weeks_leading_up_to_Alpha_.282009-07-07_-_2009-08-18.29
19:04:14 <mchua> since they're immediately coming up
19:04:19 <moixs> I already assigned myself to 3 "simple" tasks, the same I took for the F11 cycle.
19:04:30 <mchua> thanks, moixs!
19:04:33 <moixs> some wiki cleanup etc
19:04:55 <mchua> we still need people who are interested in updating the talking points, and representing Marketing at the Alpha Readiness meeting
19:05:05 * jds2001 here :)
19:05:05 <mchua> both are pretty big jobs
19:05:08 <mchua> any takers?
19:05:15 * stickster here
19:05:18 <stickster> sorry, late
19:05:39 <moixs> usually, the readiness meeting is taken by the marketing group leader, that is themayor
19:05:43 <mchua> hey stickster :)
19:05:48 <jds2001> stickster: unacceptable :D
19:06:12 <mchua> Ok. The readiness meeting is on August 12, so that's plenty of time.
19:06:28 <mchua> I'll mark that as assigned to Jack and set a check-in date for when he gets back from vacation.
19:06:42 <mchua> Anyone for talking points?
19:07:25 <stickster> mchua: I'll definitely help with that one
19:07:47 <mchua> stickster: thanks! when do you think a good milestone/date would be to check in again on talking points?
19:07:52 <mchua> welcome, oshan!
19:07:59 <moixs> As far as I remember, this task really starts when the feature freeze occurs, that is at the end of the month
19:08:08 <mchua> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/TalkingPoints
19:08:19 * stickster looks at calendar real quick-like
19:08:26 <mchua> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F11_Talking_Points
19:08:42 <moixs> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/12/Schedule
19:08:43 <mchua> #link http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/f-12-releng-tasks.html
19:08:52 <stickster> I would say draft in place by July 28, final by August 4 if possible
19:08:58 <mchua> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/12/Schedule
19:08:59 <oshan> thanks
19:09:00 <mchua> (thanks moixs)
19:09:25 <mchua> stickster: so noted! I'll update the wiki page right after this meeting - next check in date is 7/28.
19:09:41 <mchua> ...and lo, all the tasks have owners and dates.
19:09:49 <mchua> y'all rock.
19:10:15 <mchua> there are some other outstanding tasks and topics Jack and others wanted to bring up
19:10:32 <mchua> i put them on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing_F12_schedule#Not_yet_assigned_to_a_date since they're not specifically assigned to a part of the marketing release cycle yet.
19:11:08 <mchua> if anyone has stuff outside that list to bring up, holler - we'll start going through the list now.
19:11:19 <mchua> First up is $FooBar update - JonRob?
19:12:04 <mchua> ...is not here. Ok, I'll ping him on-list.
19:12:18 <moixs> Note that these kind of tasks were on another page before: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing_tasks but we never really looked at ot...I'll merge the interesting ones in your list mchua. I'll archive the page then.
19:12:20 <stickster> mchua: Re: foobar...
19:12:38 <mchua> thanks, moixs.
19:12:43 <mchua> stickster: yessir?
19:13:01 <stickster> Something we should be keeping in mind as we go is that there's a great deal of crossover between what Foobar proposes, and what the new CMS can/will accomplish.
19:13:11 <stickster> The way I see it...
19:13:35 <stickster> is that Foobar sets out a lot of Marketing-specific goals, and I think most or all of them can be achieved through an implementation via the CMS.
19:14:08 * mchua nods
19:14:27 <mchua> stickster, how do we make sure that we're not duplicating work?
19:14:28 <stickster> So part of the job is clarifying how to get to the objective using that vehicle
19:14:38 * mchua nods
19:14:57 <stickster> mchua: First and foremost, anyone involved in Foobar should be monitoring the CMS progression and participating
19:15:05 <jds2001> does this have anything to do with the wpmu implementation as well?
19:15:08 <stickster> I believe the new "logistics" list is where a lot of that will happen.
19:15:20 <mizmo> stickster: i was thinking wp would be more appropriate than a cms for foobar...
19:15:26 <moixs> sounds like the ideal place yes
19:15:32 <rislam> +1 stickster
19:15:53 * ianweller was running along the same lines as mizmo but could see why it would be good to do foobar in the CMS...
19:15:57 <jds2001> mizmo: i just sponsored 3 guys on the infrastructure side working on wpmu
19:16:00 <stickster> jds2001: I just read something this morning about WP-MU
19:16:49 <stickster> Is this a recent resurgence? The last I had heard about WP-MU was from some time ago, and in the meantime a lot of CMS work has either been slated or completed.
19:16:58 <stickster> That doesn't mean it's one versus the other.
19:17:00 <moixs> Can someone quicly recap what is going on with the different CMS'?
19:17:20 * moixs is a bit lost
19:17:23 <jds2001> stickster: i think they're really complementary.
19:17:31 <stickster> They might be.
19:17:36 <jds2001> but yeah, it's relatively new, but has traction
19:17:46 * mchua is as well - is anyone here closely following the CMS discussion? I've only been skimming the lists, not participating.
19:18:14 * jds2001 knows what CMS we've chosen (Zikula), but that's about it....
19:18:15 * ianweller is confused now, and wasn't before :)
19:18:17 * ke4qqq is here and following that
19:18:18 <ianweller> um
19:18:23 <ianweller> oh yeah. ke4qqq knows
19:18:28 <mchua> ke4qqq! can you enlighten us?
19:18:34 <stickster> ke4qqq: Why don't you take over for a mo' :-)
19:18:37 <ke4qqq> sooooo we picked zikula
19:18:48 <ke4qqq> we've packaged zikula
19:19:09 <ke4qqq> we have made tremendous progress in packaging modules
19:19:13 <ke4qqq> and their dependencies
19:19:14 <stickster> ke4qqq: And to clarify, the picking happened in cahoots with Infrastructure and others, after a long period of input, eval, and testing
19:19:26 <ianweller> upstream is very responsive, too
19:19:31 <ke4qqq> yes - and with an upstream that dedicated resources to making this a success
19:19:42 <stickster> upstream is actually collaborating *here* in project lists, incl. Docs and Infra
19:20:19 <ke4qqq> yes - and developing new modules for their CMS to meet our needs - we really couldn't have asked for better
19:20:24 <ke4qqq> IMO
19:20:26 <moixs> Where will it be used exactly? Will it replace another cms?
19:20:37 <ke4qqq> the first task is to replace docs.fp.o
19:21:04 <stickster> It actually fills a *void* at docs.fp.o which is currently a horrendously manual process
19:21:11 <ke4qqq> docs.fp.o doesn't have a CMS as such - more a collection of scripts and potions along with a list of incantation one must chant
19:21:20 <stickster> 'zactly
19:21:41 <mchua> this is rockin'. ke4qqq, is there someone from Marketing - hopefully someone working on FooBar - that's actively participating in the CMS discussion? Or should we be more active about making sure there's a delegate?
19:22:03 <ke4qqq> FPC and F-Legal are also interested in using it - but we haven't mapped out that really well thus far - but it's after docs.fp.o makes the move
19:22:29 <stickster> mchua: That's one of the reasons I brought it up -- to ensure that JonRob and anyone else working on Foobar is aware of it and inserts into those discussions
19:22:36 <stickster> ke4qqq: I think that's happening on the "logistics" list, correct?
19:22:37 <ke4qqq> mchua: honestly I don't know - poelcat has kinda agreed to take the lead on coordinating the teams and I don't know if someone has stood up from marketing
19:22:47 <mchua> ke4qqq: That's good to know.
19:22:49 <ke4qqq> stickster: yes
19:22:58 <stickster> poelcat is coordinating things like a production schedule and some meetings
19:23:08 <ke4qqq> yes and our first meeting is tomorrow
19:23:11 * stickster just wants to make sure no one is misinterpreting that as John being "in charge" of Zikula
19:23:13 <ke4qqq> 11am Eastern
19:23:22 <mchua> ianweller, reading back through Jack's notes for the meeting (which, honestly, I should just forward to the marketing list - will do in a sec) it looks like you're in charge of coordinating with Infrastructure on what platform FooBar should use.
19:23:37 <ianweller> right.
19:24:29 <mchua> ianweller: is following the cms/zikula/logistics lists and discussions part of that?
19:24:50 <ianweller> yes.
19:24:53 <moixs> Hah, great to know that :)
19:24:54 * stickster pretty sure he saw Ian subbed to that list
19:24:55 * ianweller is on the logistics list
19:25:46 <stickster> I think mchua's point about duplication of effort is a good one. This CMS is nothing like the Plone system that ended up more-or-less DOA. It's much easier to use productively and we have a tremendously responsive upstream to help us with details if needed.
19:26:08 <stickster> (for those of you who weren't around then, Plone was just waaaay too complex for us to build any working community around it.)
19:26:20 <mchua> ianweller: do you have the bandwidth to be the marketing/foobar <--> zikula/cms/logistics interface?
19:26:42 <mchua> ianweller: at least until we (read: you) have settled on a platform for foobar?
19:27:00 <ianweller> the we/you thing made me chuckle :)
19:27:02 <ianweller> mchua: sure why not
19:28:01 <mchua> ianweller: rockin'. if you can make the meeting tomorrow and holler back to the marketing list what's going on, we can check in on this again next week - how's that sound?
19:28:09 <ianweller> sure
19:28:22 <mchua> ianweller: thanks!
19:28:27 <ianweller> :)
19:28:56 <mchua> Other upcoming foobar items.... my list from Jack says we need people to get a platform beta up
19:29:08 <mchua> but that needs to wait for a platform to be chosen, so we'll skip that
19:29:23 <mchua> the other one is coordinating with Design... mizmo, when do you reckon we should start that?
19:30:16 <mizmo> mchua: whenever you want
19:30:20 <mchua> hey, kassmodiah! we're mid-marketing meeting. ;)
19:30:38 <mchua> mizmo: would it be better for you folks to get started now, or do you want to wait until we have a platform chosen?
19:30:50 <mchua> I'm not sure how much the platform choice dictates the kind of design that can be done
19:31:50 <mizmo> mchua: might be better to wait for the platform since that does constrain the design & timelines
19:31:55 * mchua nods
19:32:06 <mizmo> mchua: i am hoping wp is chosen though because its a known quantity and we've done themes for it before
19:32:15 <mchua> okeydokey, will mark design as waiting on platform choice. thanks, mizmo!
19:32:20 <mizmo> yep
19:32:49 <mchua> ianweller: is there a particular date you want to nail down the platform choice by?
19:32:54 <moixs> this will give us more time to decide what we exactly want on it, too...this may also dictate the design
19:32:55 <ianweller> mchua: soon.
19:33:03 <mchua> (or rather, everyone else: is there a date ianweller *needs* to nail down a platform choice by?)
19:33:08 <ianweller> mchua: very soon.
19:33:20 <stickster> mizmo: Not to worry, we very well could end up with both of these running, esp. if they serve different needs
19:33:35 * stickster sees "blog platform" as very different from "general news and information delivery"
19:33:41 <stickster> (well, *potentially*)
19:33:46 * stickster shuts up so as not to derail things.
19:33:53 <mchua> ianweller: would august 1st (about 2 weeks before alpha) be too soon?
19:34:03 <ianweller> mchua: not at all.
19:34:08 <mchua> august 1st it is.
19:34:17 <mchua> anything else on foobar?
19:34:52 <mchua> it sounds like we're in pretty good shape, with design and alpha waiting for ianweller to choose us a platform by 8/1, and being a cms/zikula <--> marketing intermediary in the meantime
19:35:16 <mizmo> stickster: well a blog is focused on chronologically based text and media offerings, a CMS is less time based no?
19:35:20 <mchua> ianweller: (not sure if there's a similar conversation for wpmu, which sounds like the other platform front-runner, but you know better than I do how to update the rest of the crew on that. ;)
19:35:43 <ianweller> wp-mu i do'nt think is the right choice for foobar
19:36:00 <ianweller> it just complicates things and we don't need multiple blogs
19:36:08 <ianweller> unless of course we want to run the entire thing under the blogs.fp.o umbrella
19:36:21 <mchua> ianweller: so the choice is zikula vs... what else is under consideration?
19:36:32 <ianweller> zikula, wp, wpmu.
19:36:41 <ianweller> and anything else anybody comes up with.
19:36:50 <ianweller> unless it's "drupal" in which case i will yell at them
19:36:56 <mchua> ianweller: ah, ok. maybe we should have this convo on the list so folks who can't make this meeting can chime in
19:37:23 <mizmo> ianweller: you only need one blog
19:37:27 <ianweller> mizmo: correct
19:37:34 <mchua> ianweller: the discussion on platform options, and the features/spec requests for what people want a foobar platform to have
19:37:36 <mizmo> ianweller: i set up a test instance on my own server to try out podcasting with the bluberry plugin
19:37:50 <mizmo> it makes it super easy to offer video audio and text feeds
19:37:58 <ianweller> +1 to pushing a week-long platform flamewar to the list ;)
19:38:04 <ianweller> kidding, i don't think it'll break out in fire
19:38:11 * stickster neither, so +1
19:38:14 * mchua was going for "calm, rational discussion"
19:38:25 <mchua> ...with creme brulee torch ;)
19:38:28 <mchua> ...and creme brulee.
19:38:34 <ianweller> nom
19:38:39 <ke4qqq> nom indeed
19:39:20 * stickster notes that Jack's email (thanks mchua for [re-]sending to list) notes some shorter deadlines for platform pickin'
19:39:33 <mchua> ianweller: i know you've got a lot of stuff on your plate, so how's this - I'll go through the logs of this chat when moixs posts them, pull current proposals onto a foobar wiki page, announce to the list that they can add ideas there, and then pass that space to you so you can use it for your platform pickin' notes
19:39:41 <moixs> (Crème brûlée)
19:39:45 <ianweller> mchua: you're awesome
19:39:59 <mchua> ianweller: right back atcha :) ok, we have a foobar gameplan.
19:40:22 <mchua> for that matter, we'll actually have a public foobar webpage and discussion, which are both Teh Winz
19:40:34 <mchua> I'm pretty happy with Foobar status... any other foobar stuff?
19:40:45 * mchua likes saying foobar, though it sounds mildly dorky after a while
19:40:55 <mizmo> mchua: maybe foobar platform requirements writeup should be a to-do?
19:40:56 <ianweller> name brainstorming would be another thing to think about :)
19:41:05 <stickster> +10
19:41:16 <mchua> #action foobar name brainstorming
19:41:23 <mchua> #action foobar platform requirements writeup
19:41:24 <moixs> yeah, at the moment, it's...furchtbar :D
19:41:31 <mizmo> (and sorry if im derailing anything, im excited to write the theme which is why im diving into platform too much probably)
19:41:34 <ianweller> moixs: hahahha
19:41:35 <jds2001> fruitbar
19:41:36 * mchua grins
19:41:49 <ianweller> mizmo: :)  i'll be taking your excitement into account
19:42:00 <mchua> ok - all these things sound like they could benefit from a week of suggestions/brainstorming
19:42:21 <mchua> so how's this: i'll set up wiki pages for all of them, preseed them with all the email discussions I've seen and this chat's log, send that to the list so people have a week to chime in
19:42:29 <mchua> and then we can kick off next week's meeting with Brainstorming Fun Time
19:42:54 <mchua> and virtual, properly-accented crème brûlée
19:43:04 <ianweller> altgr ftw
19:43:11 <mchua> objections?
19:43:23 <ianweller> no
19:43:27 <ianweller> :)
19:43:28 <mchua> sweet.
19:43:31 <moixs> Just don't create too many wiki pages or we'll get lost :p
19:43:36 <ianweller> hey
19:43:39 <ianweller> if you write a wiki page
19:43:43 <mchua> moixs just pointed out the time - we need to wrap up soonishlike
19:43:45 <ianweller> shove a category tag at the bottom
19:43:52 * ianweller goes to look up the right one
19:44:14 <ianweller> [[Category:Project FooBar]]
19:44:16 <mchua> there are only two things left on the list
19:44:23 <ianweller> put that on all the foobar-related pages
19:44:24 * mchua will add that category tag to all those pages. w00t
19:44:37 <mchua> Sparks is looking for a volunteer.
19:44:40 <mchua> The Docs team will do the long technical release notes, wants Marketing to either do or liason on a one-page shiny version suitable for non-geek consumption.
19:44:41 <ianweller> nose goes
19:44:45 * ianweller touches nose quickly
19:44:56 <mchua> er, that was a bad copy-pasted summary.
19:45:19 <ianweller> Sparks: where would the shiny version be located?
19:45:28 <Sparks> ianweller: Good question
19:45:41 <mchua> basically, docs wants to make 2 versions of the f12 release notes - the usual type we generate, and a nice short 1-page shiny more marketing-esque one.
19:45:46 <moixs> mchua: we have a page for that
19:45:47 <Sparks> ianweller: I guess that's for Marketing to decide
19:45:50 <moixs> let me find it
19:45:52 <mchua> labor and/or marketing <--> docs coordination needed.
19:45:55 <mchua> (docs folks who were actually at the FAD can correct me here.)
19:46:13 <moixs> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_tour
19:46:17 <moixs> It's te tour
19:46:32 <Sparks> No, not the tour
19:46:43 <Sparks> The tour is a place to go to get more information...
19:46:56 <Sparks> I think what we were talking about is a reduced Release Notes.
19:47:01 <Sparks> It would augment the tour.
19:47:27 <moixs> yeah ok, but what is the exact point of having a reduced release note?
19:47:34 <mchua> Sparks: something on the order of http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Release_Notes/8.2.0 - written for folks who haven't been hacking on f12 for the past 6 months?
19:47:37 <moixs> is the standard one really long?
19:47:39 <Sparks> because we've had requests for that.
19:47:43 <moixs> okay
19:47:45 <ianweller> Sparks: does this lead to a problem of having way too many documents to maintain?
19:47:49 <Sparks> moixs: VERY VERY LONG!
19:48:03 <Sparks> ianweller: No...  Yes...  Maybe...
19:48:17 <ianweller> *bbzt*
19:48:19 * mchua notes that even with a ridiculous reading speed, an entire lunch-time was devoted to going through http://docs.fedoraproject.org/release-notes/f11/en-US/
19:48:31 <Sparks> Basically...
19:48:36 <stickster> A shorter release notes would be able to take the place of the tour, and the F(n) Overview page, and probably a couple others
19:48:43 <Sparks> geeks want to know when gcc (and everything else) gets changed.
19:48:58 <ianweller> Sparks: here's what i'm envisioning.
19:49:06 <Sparks> non-geek users want to know about OO.o changes and FF and larger items.
19:49:21 * Sparks thinks this could be done in Publican easier...
19:49:23 <ianweller> merge the tour and the overview and the one-page notes idea into a group of nicely created pages that would be at docs.fp.o
19:49:30 <ianweller> complete with imagery
19:49:32 <ianweller> well
19:49:34 <ianweller> (maybe imagery)
19:49:42 * mchua looking at clock - we have 9 minutes left before the hour runs out; the other thing on my list is by default deferred, because JonRob isn't here (it was "sync up with News team," and has no deadline.)
19:49:49 <Sparks> I think pictures would be good
19:50:01 <moixs> This whole merger is also an idea I have, with the talking points
19:50:04 <ianweller> perhaps even quotes, and links to podcasts, by fedora hackers
19:50:08 <ianweller> you know
19:50:12 <ianweller> something a little more interactiv ethan text
19:50:17 <moixs> ok, that's project foobar :p
19:50:20 <Sparks> translate it?
19:50:25 <ianweller> moixs: well
19:50:26 <mchua> does anyone have anything else they'd like to bring up during this meeting, or can we continue to take the rest of our time to handle Sparks's request?
19:50:35 <ianweller> moixs: more specifically to a cliff notes to the releas enotes.
19:50:46 <ianweller> moixs: is there anyone in here after us?
19:50:47 <ianweller> er
19:50:50 <ianweller> mchua: is there anyone in here after us?
19:50:53 <moixs> no idea
19:51:11 <mchua> ianweller: no clue, but I do want to end the meeting on time, so we can all get off to Doing Stuff. ;)
19:51:11 * ianweller looks
19:51:20 <ianweller> mchua: aww on time meetings are lame ;)
19:51:28 <moixs> ^^
19:51:38 <stickster> mchua: Clear after this hour
19:51:43 <mchua> Sparks, it sounds like we need more clarity on what exactly these reduced release notes are that you're asking for
19:51:44 <ianweller> clear until 1 UTC
19:51:46 <ianweller> here's what i suggest
19:52:03 <ianweller> i will talk to poelcat and ask him if the logistics list would be good to talk about cross-docs-and-marketing stuff like this
19:52:15 <ianweller> i.e. the one-page rel notes
19:52:16 <stickster> ianweller: Good call, my bet is that answer will be 'yes'
19:52:21 <ianweller> stickster: i would assume so too.
19:52:22 <mchua> +1 to that
19:52:25 <ianweller> and
19:52:25 * Sparks likes stickster and ianweller's ideas
19:52:34 <ianweller> and everyone in here who cares (all of you!) will go subscribe t othat list
19:52:38 <Sparks> mchua: this was an idea so nothing is in stone.
19:52:40 <ianweller> and we'll discuss there.
19:52:41 <mchua> #action ian to talk with polecat and ask if the logistics list would be good to talk about cross-docs-and-marketing stuff like one-page rel notes
19:53:01 <ianweller> and i'll ping both docslist and mktglist about it
19:54:02 <ianweller> (if a ping over IRC is "ping", is the similar over emial a "superping"?)
19:54:07 <mchua> Sparks: in the meantime, would you mind shooting an email to mktglist on what the idea is and what you're looking for from Marketing? (It sounds like you'd like Marketing to own the 1-pg notes and coordinate with Docs, but I'm not sure exactly what it is we'd own yet, and I could also be completely wrong.)
19:54:23 <mchua> ianweller: if a ping falls in a forest and nobody hears it....
19:54:27 <Sparks> mchua: Yes and yes
19:54:40 <ianweller> mchua: s/forest/NOC/ :)
19:54:56 <mchua> #action Sparks to email to mktglist on what the 1-pg-docs idea is and what Docs is looking for from Marketing
19:54:57 <Sparks> mchua: If a ping gets dropped by the firewall...
19:55:00 <mchua> Sparks: thanks!
19:55:08 <Sparks> mchua: Thank you
19:55:28 <mchua> ...ok, the pun density is rising, and that's usually an indication that it's time to wrap up a meeting ;)
19:55:38 <mchua> anything else?
19:55:42 <ianweller> no.
19:55:44 * ianweller turns on his jetpack and crashes through the roof
19:55:55 * Sparks hopes he was wearing a helmut
19:56:02 <mchua> we've got milestones and dates and owners for all the f12 pre-alpha tasks, and all of our outstanding projects, so we're in *awesome* shape
19:56:03 * moixs opens a beer for a perfectly fine meeting
19:56:16 * mchua joins moixs with a tumbler of port
19:56:27 <mchua> ...though I'm not sure whether that is the correct vehicle for said beverage
19:56:34 <mchua> ok, wrapping up in 3....
19:56:37 * ianweller gives an A to mchua for leading a good meeting
19:56:38 * mchua puts on jetpack
19:56:39 <mchua> 2....
19:56:41 * mchua puts on helmet
19:56:43 <mchua> 1...
19:56:53 <ianweller> * k r a s h *
19:56:54 * mchua blasts off
19:57:05 <moixs> Log in your mailbox in...3 minutes
19:57:12 <mchua> thanks, moixs!
19:57:14 <mchua> #endmeeting